Free will cancels out the idea of god

V

Votorx

Still egotistic...
Valued Senior Member
I can explain this in 2 simple scenerios.

1. We have free will: God being all knowing can see our future, how we die and how we live our life. Our existence is predestined and therefore cannot be changed, there is no free will, which leads to scenerio #2.

2. We do not have free will: God being perfect in everyway, granted us free will. God must have lied (which we know cannot be possible), or made a mistake (another impossibility).

Where does religion stand?
 
Votorx,

1. We have free will: God being all knowing can see our future, how we die and how we live our life. Our existence is predestined and therefore cannot be changed, there is no free will, which leads to scenerio #2.

There are many ways to cause our death, each way is a possibility dependant on a) Death caused by our own body and mind, b) death caused by some other entities body and mind, or c) by natural causes. The only real knowledge, is that we will die. So our future is predestined, but the choice of destination belongs to us or providence. That is the choice.

2. We do not have free will: God being perfect in everyway, granted us free will. God must have lied (which we know cannot be possible), or made a mistake (another impossibility).

What made you compose this thread?

Where does religion stand?

In relation to what?

Jan Ardena.
 
There are many ways to cause our death, each way is a possibility dependant on a) Death caused by our own body and mind, b) death caused by some other entities body and mind, or c) by natural causes. The only real knowledge, is that we will die. So our future is predestined, but the choice of destination belongs to us or providence. That is the choice.
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Hmm and I thought I made my post quite clear and simple. I guess not. It's not the fact that we die that denies free will. Its the fact that god knows exactly when we will die, how we will die, where and how we will live and every single aspect in our life. If this is so then our future is predestined to the very last detail which makes free will impossible.

What made you compose this thread?

Where does religion stand?

In relation to what?
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An idea in another thread.

Maybe i was unclear about that question. Let me rephrase. What do religious people have to say in relation to this thread?
 
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Votorx,

It's not the fact that we die that denies free will. Its the fact that god knows exactly when we will die, how we will die, where and how we will live and every single aspect in our life.

Why do you class predicting birth and death as knowledge?
Surely the knowledge is the system that incorporates these phenomenons. The system works under certain laws, namely cause and effect so the only determinate quality, is our own actions. God is personally concerned with those who devote their life to Him, otherwise He maintains the universe so all the living entities are catered for. He has no personal interaction.

If this is so then our future is predestined to the very last detail which makes free will impossible.

We see time in past, present and future, but God doesn't. He sees the soul, we see the bodies.


Jan Ardena.
 
Votorx said:
I can explain this in 2 simple scenerios.

1. We have free will: God being all knowing can see our future, how we die and how we live our life. Our existence is predestined and therefore cannot be changed, there is no free will, which leads to scenerio #2.

2. We do not have free will: God being perfect in everyway, granted us free will. God must have lied (which we know cannot be possible), or made a mistake (another impossibility).

Where does religion stand?
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God knows what will happen but WE make the decisions.

We aren't predestined, But God knows what will happen.

He still gives us choice, for example:

Why are you here? It is because God gave you the chance to be witnessed to. You get the choice to say "Yes, I accept Jesus" or "No, I do not". He knows what you will say, but he still gives you the choice.

This is free will.

Yours in Christ,

Kevin
 
God knows what will happen but WE make the decisions.

We aren't predestined, But God knows what will happen.
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But if God already knows the outcome then no matter what we choose it will always happen no matter what (predestination). We are always gonna follow what God already knows and if God can witness every single aspect of our future then our future is in fact predestined. And if it is predestined then all the choices and changes we make in the future is absolute. We have no free will.
 
Votorx said:
But if God already knows the outcome then no matter what we choose it will always happen no matter what (predestination). We are always gonna follow what God already knows and if God can witness every single aspect of our future then our future is in fact predestined. And if it is predestined then all the choices and changes we make in the future is absolute. We have no free will.
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I'm an agnostic but I can tell you what my aunt responds with when I present her with that argument. She says God choses to exercise knowledge of future events to his liking. Another words he censures himself to certain eventualities in order to avoid cognitive conflict. I dont know if such a thing is possible, for a God to restrict his powers, anyway that's what she says.

Another theory of mine is if God is a trinity, in order for god to exercise fore-knowledge all three entities have to agree. It's a system of check and balances to avoid even God from abusing his powers.
 
So what ur trying to say is that God himself is infact not all powerful? Isn't that just contradicting the bible? And how would your aunt know this? It seems to me that this is just a common answer priest give to children to "continue their faith"
 
Votorx said:
God being all knowing can see our future, how we die and how we live our life.
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I really wish people would say which religion's god when doing this... anyway, who or what idiotic religion actually has a god who is all knowing? Gods are keepers of the wilderness... you can be cared for without having all known about you. That's just weird to assume that.
 
Well im pretty sure the christian religion is the idiotic religion that believes god is all knowing. Although im not to familiar with Judiasm and Islam I have heard that they have similar ideas about god, so its only logical to think that they are the idiotic religions that believe in god is all knowing as well. I suppose when I made this thread people would assume that I was talking about the major religions, I guess not...

I see that you believe in multiple deities, like ancient greek...Sorry but I would like to keep this thread restricted to the more "rational" religions. Well anyways, like I said I was just basing my assumptions on the bible and the other religous books, but if its wrong to assume by these religious materials then I guess they must be wrong as well, correct?
 
Free will cancels out the idea of god

Why should we be so eager to cancel out the idea of God.

Is it rational to have faith in something you hope exists, but cannot be proven to exist?

Until man can understand the meaning of life on the same level as a goldfish can understand Einsteins theory - we will be stabbing in the dark, taking a guess. Until then I believe that any possible thought on the matter should be considered and not discarded as baloney. The idea of God is manufactured, created for man by man, and it can be both ludicrous and credible in the same moment.

When does the goldfish in a bowl ever give up on a chance of a way out, it doesn't, it is always looking. It will swim round that bowl looking for an answer until it dies, just as mankind looks for his answer. There was never a way out of the bowl for the fish, I just wonder if there's a God for mankind.

And if there is a God, why shouldn't he give us free will - no one knows God well enough to dispute it.
 
God being perfect in everyway, granted us free will
God didn't grant us free will, we obtained it ourselves by eating a fruit from a tree.

As well we don't have perfect free will anyway. Our biological bodies determine things for us subconsciously. We for example can't ultimately choose who we are attracted to. There are 6 genes that determine our immune system. The less genes we share in common with another individual of the opposite sex the more attractive they are to us because they will produce offspring that have stong immune systems. This is but one example where there are many more. We don't have complete free will.
 
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atheroy said:
God being perfect in everyway, granted us free will
God didn't grant us free will, we obtained it ourselves by eating a fruit from a tree.

As well we don't have perfect free will anyway. Our biological bodies determine things for us subconsciously. We for example can't ultimately choose who we are attracted to. There are 6 genes that determine our immune system. The less genes we share in common with another individual of the opposite sex the more attractive they are to us because they will produce offspring that have stong immune systems. This is but one example where there are many more. We don't have complete free will.
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Correct - You could also generalise and use the example of instinct vs perfect free will
 
atheroy said:
God being perfect in everyway, granted us free will
God didn't grant us free will, we obtained it ourselves by eating a fruit from a tree.

As well we don't have perfect free will anyway. Our biological bodies determine things for us subconsciously. We for example can't ultimately choose who we are attracted to. There are 6 genes that determine our immune system. The less genes we share in common with another individual of the opposite sex the more attractive they are to us because they will produce offspring that have stong immune systems. This is but one example where there are many more. We don't have complete free will.
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I have taken this idea much more extremely in How we behave in the general philosophy thread. We don't have free will at all! Our genes determine all our behaviour :eek:
 
God didn't grant us free will, we obtained it ourselves by eating a fruit from a tree.
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But god ordered us not to eat that fruit. We would need free will to disobey his command and eat the fruit in the first place.
 
As well we don't have perfect free will anyway
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Really...I would have sworn the bible said we do contain free will. Is this yet another subject the bible if false on (or you?)? If so, it seems like a majority of the book is false, isn't it reasonable to discard the bible as a lie by now?
 
I picture God as the ultimate chess player, unparralled.

Basically he knows every move your ever going to make, he considers every single possibility, and in this respect he knows everything.

What he does not know, however, is what move you are going to make.

Continued.......

I see determinism as a thing which we take an active role in. The idea of Free Will only came about when we decided we had it, the word would not exist if the thing didn't, would it? On a personal level I can now choose whether to take a sip of my beer and keep typing this message, or whether I will take two sips of beer and continue writing this message. This is a choice which I have to make for myself. It has little to do with God's influence. God knew I might get to a point in my life where i would be faced with this decision, but he still does not know what choice I will make, because i have the Free Will to decide that.


mmmmmmmmbeer....... :)
 
Votorx said:
isn't it reasonable to discard the bible as a lie by now?
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Not by a long shot. Most events described in the bible have shown to be historically correct. Many wars described in the bible really happened, many kings talked about existed, all the disciples and Jesus were real people, this has been proven.



Please read the message i already wrote above.....
 
Not by a long shot. Most events described in the bible have shown to be historically correct. Many wars described in the bible really happened, many kings talked about existed, all the disciples and Jesus were real people,
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And these events can be fitted into the history books. We don't need a seperate book which also claims such false facts like god, faith, free will and other ideas that people seem to live by.

The idea of Free Will only came about when we decided we had it, the word would not exist if the thing didn't, would it?
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Ahh but there are many words that exist even if the thing it represents does not. For instance, Telekinesis, ESP, Lockness Monsters, Boogie Men and so much more, but this isn't the point, you obviously believe in free will. God doesn't necessarily need to interefere with our lives to interefere with our free will. If god knows exactly what choices we make in the future then that only proves that predestination is a reality, and if that is so then there is no free will.

God knew I might get to a point in my life where i would be faced with this decision, but he still does not know what choice I will make
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So what ur saying is that God isn't all power and God doesn't know everything? Yet this is just going against the bible again.
 
VIENNA: I liked your gold fish analogy. Last night, as I was trying for an answer to "just what is it I seek with all my studying and contemplation," and I came up with, "to better understand the universe in relation to myself." To put it more simply, to have the mind of God. Now, please! I do not mean that I will be some magician or something, but, as I believe God is, it seems to me that if I keep my mind open to possibilities, I will certainly be more likely to have the mind of God. Does this make sense to the rest of you? Just wondered. PMT
 
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