Formal Debate; The sad truth about the origins of the Christian belief system.

[camphlps]

well i have. And if you read the entire passage you may have noticed that your link you posted accually shows several origins. it clearly states that there is Germanic traditions and Idian. After that it also shows that of the Yule tree. Which if you dont already know, Yule is the Celtic Godess, which is where they take the Yule tree and hang orbs and isicles on the tree. I dont know why you keep this up. But whatever.

 

[Halcyon]

And if you read the entire passage you may have noticed that your link you posted accually shows several origins.

No it doesn't. It mentions only one origin; "The custom originated in germany."

it clearly states that there is Germanic traditions and Idian.

No it doesn't, it only gives an example of a coniferous tree appearing in ROMAN mythology. It does not cite that as an origin. It doesn't mention anything about the tree being an Indian tradition at all.

Which if you dont already know, Yule is the Celtic Godess,

Yule is a celebration Germanic in origin, which is why the christmas tree is Germanic in origin. Not Celtic in origin..

 

[Preacher_X]

1> that degrade women with female genital mutilation

bullshit not true. Islam does not promote that and infact many Christians and jewish women are circumcised. 19% of the women circumcised in Sudan are Christian.

2> make women cover there heads

bullshit not true. Islam doenst make you do anything since "there is no compulsion in religion" and it is not allowed for a non related man to tell a woman to wear a scarf and it is an individula choice. its puropse is to serve God so forcing someone has no benifit so is pointless. and according to Biblical scriptures women who dont were scarves when they pray should have their hair shaved.

3> only women can be accused of adultery

more bullshit. where the hell did you get that from

4> making a mockery of marriage by divorcing there many wives by mobile phone messaging

fair point but is that arrogant Saudias or Islamic scriptures??

Because a man can have as many wives as he wants at least 12, and mistresses well hundreds.

more bullshit. COMPLETEY FALSE. and since were taling about Christianty, please pick up a Bible and read how may wives some of the people were having.

5> islams inability in living alongside and accepting other religons.

cant argue with this one as there are two versions. one in where Muslims were living peacful with many other religions and places like Saudia wre they are not and NonMuslims are opressed. but the actual RELIGION of Islam teaches equality and co-exsistence. Muslims have been marrying people of other religions for generations aswell (as is allowed in the Quran) also for example more Synagogues wrre built kin the time of the Islamic empire then ver before.

and it was Jews and Christians who used to stone, spit, abuse, try to kill on several occasions and boycott the Prophet (saw) and the very few Muslims at the time now vise versa. and if Muslims are so intolerant can you explain why there is so many differnt faiths in this huge area that Muslims have conquered. Muslims have conquered these palces so where are these hundreds of millions of different faiths on this land coming from???

6> muslims thinking that by killing infidels, for what ever sick reason that day, they are martyr

nope that makjes you a murderor. killing an opressor whthere Muslim or Non makes you a martyr

7> muslims do not respect man made laws, they only respect the laws of islam.

why did the Khalifs make laws then??? and Muslims are instructed to live under the laws of the land. if we are in a Muslim majority though then we can set up an Islamic system.

8> muslims are the biggest drug suppliers in the world, cannabis, and heroin have been responsible for the deaths of millions around the world, through crime related incidents, and overdosing.

druges are forbidden in Islam so how is this related to Islam. Also remeber that the British created tyhje drug market in Asian countries and for centureis were the biggest drug dealers of their time so by your logic arent British Christians evil Christians aswell and it is the west (or Christians you would call it) who are importing it. also it is documented that Americas CIA supplied blacks with druges in the 60's. Christians to blame once more.

The prophet muhammed was a paedophile marrying a 6 year old baby, and broke every religous law,.

bullshiit. firstly if your using the reference hadeeth then she was 9 but reports put her at 18. and Muhammad (saw) didnt reak any religious law ever.

i do not recall jesus being a paedophile, so who is the greater prophet muhammed the paedophile or jesus

no one is a pedo. this has been discussed like a kazillion times. go read it. also Jesus had a miracolous birth right?? historians put Mary'se age at 8-14 when she had Jesus so does that make (well i could say something nasty here but since it is the same God and Prophet (as) im not gonna)

So when you sit down and think about things, just what has islam done to benefit mankind in anyway

Then think what christians and budhists have done to benefit mankind, every invention or medicine comes from these 2 faiths, these 2 religons can tolerate other faiths

erm right Christians banned education forn a long period of time and LOADS of people have made things other then bhuddists and christians. what a stupid assertion . also Muslims have invented things, your idea that they didnt is stupid. you cant conquer half the known world and have empires lasting 400 years at a time without inventing something can you

 

[camphlps]

Dont be so ignorant. You cannot just "remove" what you dont wanna believe. I just reviewed your source AGAIN. And once again it states that the tradition is a mixture of pagen from several locations. I found something interesting i may have overpassed the first time. That their entire bases (assuming so, because it does not state any other bases) in on a legand.

I find this interesting, because you denied my website cause its just a website, yet you believe this, when its just a legand and not historicly documented. This however, could be the reverse. If they truly mean legand it would not be written down and passed by mouth and ears. If they mean documentation of the legan is different. Ultimately im not convinced.

THe most important though, is that i never denied that the Christmas tree could have been a combination of several traditions. I even stated that I feel this is highly possible.

Like I said earlier, your just arguing with yourself. You have yet to point out anything I might disagree...

 

[Halcyon]

I just reviewed your source AGAIN. And once again it states that the tradition is a mixture of pagen from several locations.

You're a either a liar and trying to save face, or just not very literate. Let me lead you through a process you might find interesting.

You said, and I quote;
"the Christmas Tree for example is a Celtic tradition."
To which I said you were mistaken. I provided you with a reference.
On examining the reference, you did not come up with one single counter-argument or point to defend your previous statement, which is what we're talking about here. You instead changed the subject and said, and I quote;
"And if you read the entire passage you may have noticed that your link you posted accually shows several origins. it clearly states that there is Germanic traditions and Idian."
You were wrong about the Indian tradition, which I pointed out to you, so you dropped it. This would ordinarily render your counter-argument on there being several sources moot being that you only listed two sources, one being false, and the other "german origin" being the point that I originally made.
So without any counter-argument from you, the tangent you went off on to avoid discussing your statement on the celtic origins of the tree is over.
You also mentioned that Yule is celtic goddess. I countered that Yule is a German celebration. You did not refute this. Now;

I found something interesting i may have overpassed the first time. That their entire bases (assuming so, because it does not state any other bases) in on a legand.

You should not have made that assumption. When said, "According to one legend," does not mean that it logically follows the entire article was based on the one legend. Or even any legends. It is only addressing that there are different legends regarding the true history of the tradition, but not that the information in the article is based on legend. It is an element of the article, not the other way around.

I find this interesting, because you denied my website cause its just a website

No I didn't. In fact, I actually said it's very possible the website could be correct, but without providing evidence to support itself, no sceptical person can take it at it's word. You're getting confused. It might do you good to go back and re-read the discussion up to this point.

yet you believe this, when its just a legand and not historicly documented.

That's another assumption you should not have made. The part "and not historically documented," is not supported, you made the inference from a faulty assumption. You go on even further with a line of reasoning based on the cornerstone idea "the information in the article is based on a legend," which is an incorrect assumption.
Was this tangent a blind, as well, to avoid confronting the statement you made; "The Christmas Tree for example is a Celtic tradition?"

The most important though, is that i never denied that the Christmas tree could have been a combination of several traditions.

You're lying again. Tell me how the sentence "The Christmas Tree for example is a Celtic tradition" allows provisions for there to be other origins in addition to the Celtic one you claimed. The only time you brought up the possibility of other origins was when you misinterpreted the reference I gave you.

I even stated that I feel this is highly possible.

Really? Where? I remember you saying this: "The Christmas Tree for example is a Celtic tradition."

 

[TruthSeeker]

What the heck you guys are discussing...?
You look pretty confused......

 

[Halcyon]

What the heck you guys are discussing...?
You look pretty confused......

Somebody had to say it. I feel remeniscent of the schoolyard "Nuh-uh, yeah-huh," debate.

Just in case that was a real question, and you're not poking fun at us like you should be, for some god knows reason the subject of the debate keeps changing and we've gone from having any hope of rational discussion over anything to debating just for the sake of doing so. So roll your eyes, because that's exactly what I'd be doing if I was sitting where you are.

 

[camphlps]

after reviewing it I find it very clear.

-Asked me to give evidence
-I say no, go find it yourself.
-You revise your meaning and ask just for referance
-I gave refereance
-You say it is not valid evidence and not enough
- I tell you that I gave exactly what you wanted, wether its what you expected doesnt matter
-You bring in your point. I dont know why, I stated it is highly possible since Celtic God/goddess and traditions have norse and other euro influence. Not like im disagreeing
-you continue to discredit Celtic
-I show you where your own "proof", which isnt any more/less evidence than my "one" reference, supports my claims; but you deny it (stupid, in my opinion, its clearly there). I dont give a damn wether you agree on that or not.
-Now you call me a liar. what a dumbass, i dont care what you say now...your insignificant life would only distill any hope of any help for any athiest or arragent being.

 

[TruthSeeker]

AHHhahaha... oh my... I'm almost crying. I'm really enjoying myself, here! IN THE GOOD SENSE, of course...

Ok guys... let's try to save this thread from the depths of the cesspool

camphlps, I sort of know what you are trying to say. I'm Christian too. So let's try to help you say what you want to say, should we? Ok. First of all...

-Asked me to give evidence
-I say no, go find it yourself.

The burden of evidence lies on the person that provides the idea. You can't say something and then ask people to seek evidence for themselves. Is not very... let's say "polite", with them, when arguments are concerned.

(And I learned this in the forums, so Halcyon, online debate is niot always futile )

-You say it is not valid evidence and not enough
- I tell you that I gave exactly what you wanted, wether its what you expected doesnt matter

Can you show it again? I'm fairly impartial in this discussion, so I would certainly like to see it myself.

-I show you where your own "proof", which isnt any more/less evidence than my "one" reference, supports my claims; but you deny it (stupid, in my opinion, its clearly there). I dont give a damn wether you agree on that or not.

When you make a claim and tart arguing it is not anymore just a matter of opinion. If it is true, it is true. If it is false, it is false. The right thing to do is to be honest and accept whatever result we get, after we try to refute it for long enough. Still, only disproving it with our premises is not enough to totally discredit the rgument. There is always a possibility that there might be a logical explanation supporting the argument, even if we cannot find it in our discussion.

So anyways....... one last thing....

What the heck are you guys dicussing!?!?!?!?!?

 

[TruthSeeker]

This thread cracks me up!

 

[camphlps]

beats me truthseeker, at least i dont know what trying to be discussed. I dont remember why, but i wanted to show something to do with christians using pegan holidays and tradition as a way to convert...

I state that the christmas is an "example" of a celtic holiday. This gets discussed that there are other traditions that are very very simular. I accept, seeing that it is logical and probabl. for some reason Halcyon continues to argue and brings more evidence. I have no idea why, unless for the sake of arguing. I never said anything about "no its not" or anything like that. Though he does discredit Celtic Tradition. Now 'most' maybe not all, but most, European Christmas tradition is NOT celtic. However, American is. It isnt common in america to hang the candles on the tree. Some might do it, but "national" wise the thing is tinsle and ordaments and fruit and canes. The same things put on Celtic trees. Not to say only one is the "originator" cause honestly, we do not know "for sure" which one is. Guessing its Roman, being the oldest. Possibly the Gauls, but no evidence really supports that.

Basicly he's discussing with himself and Im giving him pointers...metaphoricly.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Well.... I'm not an expert on Celtic traditions....
Can you show me where you read about them?

 

[camphlps]

At first it was by others passed down to me. Then i looked into Mythology during Academic Team class. We studied it all the time. Mostly Greek/Roman but some Norse and others. From there I got the idea to go into Celtic from studing the Norman invasion of 1066 from English Class. The quickest way to find info on celtic holidays is by google search.

here ill do the first few steps for you so you can see one page, and if you want keep going to other pages.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=celtic+holidays&spell=1

of course you could look into books or other media. internet is just the quickest i think. You will also find that Halloween has ties into Celtic, as well as other traditions.

 

[TruthSeeker]

At first it was by others passed down to me. Then i looked into Mythology during Academic Team class. We studied it all the time. Mostly Greek/Roman but some Norse and others. From there I got the idea to go into Celtic from studing the Norman invasion of 1066 from English Class. The quickest way to find info on celtic holidays is by google search.

here ill do the first few steps for you so you can see one page, and if you want keep going to other pages.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=celtic+holidays&spell=1

Could you give me a more specific page? Where it would show exactly what you are talking about? Particularly the Christmas tree and other controversial things....

of course you could look into books or other media. internet is just the quickest i think. You will also find that Halloween has ties into Celtic, as well as other traditions.

Yeah... the winter solstice......
But did you know that they also sacrificed children and women? Did you know that they worshiped trees as if they were gods? What is the connection between the Celts and the Christians?

 

[camphlps]

Well Christians would use other pegan traditions and other things as a way to convert them to christ. The thing about christmas was when the missionaries went to the Celtic lands, they saw the traditions of their druidic religion. They apparently proclaimed christ to be born on their holiday (Dec 25 of that year). This was spread to other places in the world, but the main purpose was just to convert some druids to christ.

heres one of the many pages out there

http://underworld.fortunecity.com/doom/976/holidays.htm

sorry i didnt respone sooner. I just dont give the time to this forum lately.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Well... I guess that answers the other guys' questions....