For the alternative theorists:

@ Aqueous Id

AId, I found your Post #947 to be very insightful.

Especially the following statements :
It’s quite elementary: every definition of God is one invented by some person or culture of people. Therefore God is a human invention. Therefore God does not exist.

Is it just the way I read those statements, or are you actually trying to say that : "Therefore God is a human invention. Therefore God does not exist.", and : "It is a fact that there is no God because every God ever conceived of was/is a human invention."
You are confusing premise and conclusion. The premise is that every allegation attesting to a divinity are fabricated and the conclusion is: therefore God does not exist. Have you by any chance ever taken Geometry? I think this is where people usually get exposed to the flow of logic (from premise to conclusion). They are not equivalent.
dumbest man on earth said:
AId, what would you call the "Logic", or "thought process" that led you to those statements?

For starters I would call it Geometry.

Aqueous Id, you can call "it" whatever you want.

Aqueous Id, I do not concur with your statement :
Aqueous Id said:
You are confusing premise and conclusion.

The "premise" that you originally Posted in your Post #947 was, as you put it "quite elementary" :
It’s quite elementary: every definition of God is one invented by some person or culture of people.

The "conclusions" that you Posted in your Post #947 were :
Therefore God is a human invention. Therefore God does not exist.


Aqueous Id, as for your "original premise" :
It’s quite elementary: every definition of God is one invented by some person or culture of people.


I am fairly certain that every definition - of Anything and Everything in the Known Universe, whether a physical reality or an abstract construct- is one invented by some person or culture of people.


So...in "Geometry", is it at all possible, Aqueous Id, that a flawed "premise" ever produces a flawed "conclusion"...just possibly?
 
dumbest man on earth; The "conclusions" that you Posted in your Post #947 were :

Aqueous Id, as for your "original premise" :
I am fairly certain that every definition - of Anything and Everything in the Known Universe, whether a physical reality or an abstract construct- is one invented by some person or culture of people.

So...in "Geometry", is it at all possible, Aqueous Id, that a flawed "premise" ever produces a flawed "conclusion"...just possibly?

Not a premise that cannot be directly or indirectly tested. If it does not meet scientific rigor, it will remain relegated to "belief".
 
What I would like the world to do is to read Origin of Species and become better informed about the facts of science than is currently the case.
the only problem is, the evidence isn't fitting the alleged "facts".
The fact that some scientists claim a belief in God does not comport with the word “true”. I suppose you could offer a definition of “true scientist” if the spirit moves you. But they’re not being truthful if they admit to a God. That’s the issue I raised.
"admit to a god", you make it sound like . . .
do you really have that much of a problem with "god" and religion?
no need to explain it to me, i really don't want to know.
You made creationist statements (academics is just indoctrination akin to religion, scientists who disbelieve something (ot yet specified) about evolution are being suppressed, etc.
so sue me.
i noticed you never followed up on it.
Then you’re sending us to creationist sites. For clarity you should draw the line between your own propositions and those of the creationists, esp since you cast them in the same posts.
why not address the material presented instead of blowing hard?
Sure I did. I noted that Grumpy correctly observed that these were creationist links. Are you trying to tell us they have merit?
yes because i followed up on several of the cases mentioned.
The creationist site is irrelevant. It has no merit.
that's EXACTLY why creationists are being forced out of the game.
oh my, some more DNA transplants.
That would be alchemy.
tell it to miller-urey, it was their experiment.
What was proved was that the building blocks leading to abiogenesis of RNA can occur naturally. What’s your objection to this kind of proof?
uh, maybe because it wasn't life.
In fact I suspect you’ll drop your suspicions about people being repressed, too, as well as your belief that scholarship in science is done through a kind of rote or indoctrination.
it's not suspicions, it's right there in the links i provided.
it isn't my fault you refuse to follow up on the material.
Another subject also comes to mind. Consider the rich life that forms wherever possible. Look at the abundance of flora and fauna in a desert oasis. Consider esp. the abundance of marine life found around thermal vents. One of the ingredients you are missing in your “model” is energy. The water you think forms easily is incorrectly stated. It takes immense energy to electrolyze one molecule of water, for example. The atoms you envision coming together to spontaneously form water is not the complete picture. Those atoms have originated from a highly energized source. What’s the probability of that happening? Pretty damn low on Earth.
how about putting a figure on the amount of energy the earths oceans needed.
Evolution explains how they got there, and indeed, Origin of Species explains how all life got here.
yes, explains.
there isn't much data that really proves this explanation though.
Evolution explains it, whereas no other “alternative theory” does.
yes, darwinian evolution is an explanation of how different lifeforms can come into existence.
to bad science hasn't been able to conclusively prove it.

shades of tiassa dude, you are going to have to write shorter posts.
 
But let me ask the same question of you, . . .
the conference was composed of 50 or so scientists.
geologists, paleontologists, and evolutionists, among others.
the conference concluded that the process of adaptation CANNOT be applied to macroevolution.
the conference exposed the gaps in the record.
and the now infamous ayala "retraction", which BTW, never appears in "science".
how you CAN'T have a problem with this is a mystery.
this should piss off any scientist that had any guts.
the alleged ayala retraction is what really did it for me.
 
"admit to a god", you make it sound like . . .
do you really have that much of a problem with "god" and religion?
no need to explain it to me, i really don't want to know.


It really appears if you are the one with a deity problem...
It's far more honest to be up front with it.
I certainly will not, nor have I ever held a belief in God against anyone.
I will though go into battle when they see fit to try and deride science.

so sue me.
i noticed you never followed up on it.

why not address the material presented instead of blowing hard?

Sheesh, take it easy. This attitude sort of reinforces the problem you have with the God and creation debate and such.


that's EXACTLY why creationists are being forced out of the game.
.



That's just false and not happening.
Creationist, if they wish have ample opportunity and are within the law, to push it onto their own kids at home.
They should not be allowed to contaminate real sciences, such as Evolution and Abiogenesis at schools, because it isn't science.
 
billvon, I can accept your first two (2) statements, but I cannot concur with the "(Which is a good thing; if every cell had to come from another cell, you would currently be a one cell organism.)" part. billvon, you may possibly have simply forgotten about mitosis or meiosis?

Not at all. If we assume that living things can only come from living things, then you would now be the size of an ovum. That doesn't happen because we regularly turn non-living matter into living matter. Fetuses use nonliving material that the mother ingests, from birth on they ingest that non-living material themselves. Saying "the cells just divide" doesn't change that.
 
billvon, I can accept your first two (2) statements, but I cannot concur with the "(Which is a good thing; if every cell had to come from another cell, you would currently be a one cell organism.)" part.

billvon, you may possibly have simply forgotten about mitosis or meiosis?

A little information about mitosis can be found at this Link : http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/mitosis

A little information about meiosis can be found at this Link : http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/meiosis

And where did the material for the cell to increase its size come from?

People always forget.
 
I am fairly certain that every definition - of Anything and Everything in the Known Universe, whether a physical reality or an abstract construct- is one invented by some person or culture of people.
I'm quietly confident that if we consider the following definition of Invention:
in·ven·tion
noun \in-ˈven(t)-shən\
Definition of INVENTION
3a : something invented: as
(1) : a product of the imagination; especially : a false conception
(2) : a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment

Source

That Aqueous ID is meaning invention in the first context presented, rather than the second, which you are trying to shoe-horn his words into.
 
the conference was composed of 50 or so scientists.
geologists, paleontologists, and evolutionists, among others.
the conference concluded that the process of adaptation CANNOT be applied to macroevolution.
the conference exposed the gaps in the record.
and the now infamous ayala "retraction", which BTW, never appears in "science".
how you CAN'T have a problem with this is a mystery.
this should piss off any scientist that had any guts.
the alleged ayala retraction is what really did it for me.

No it didn't - That was Lewin's interpretation of the result of the consequence.
 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Originally Posted by dumbest man on earth View Post
I am fairly certain that every definition - of Anything and Everything in the Known Universe, whether a physical reality or an abstract construct- is one invented by some person or culture of people.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


I'm quietly confident that if we consider the following definition of Invention:
in·ven·tion
noun \in-ˈven(t)-shən\
Definition of INVENTION
3a : something invented: as
(1) : a product of the imagination; especially : a false conception
(2) : a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment

Source

That Aqueous ID is meaning invention in the first context presented, rather than the second, which you are trying to shoe-horn his words into.


To add to Trippy's comments......
I have posted this before.I see there is cause to post it again.....

Science: Definition
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge"[1]) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.[2][3] In an older and closely related meaning, "science" also refers to a body of knowledge itself, of the type that can be rationally explained and reliably applied. A practitioner of science is known as a scientist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

So science is knowledge. And of course we all know knowledge is not invented...it is obtained through observation, experimentation, and time.
 
The basic science involved, IMO.
wiki,
ORGANISM,
In biology, an organism is any contiguous living system, such as a vertebrate, insect, plant or bacterium. All known types of organism are capable of some degree of response to stimuli, reproduction, growth and development and self-regulation (homeostasis).An organism may be either unicellular (a single cell) or, as in the case of humans, comprise many trillions of cells grouped into specialized tissues and organs. The term multicellular (many cells) describes any organism made up of more than one cell.

An organism may be either a prokaryote or a eukaryote. Prokaryotes are represented by two separate domains, the Bacteria and Archaea. Eukaryotic organisms are characterized by the presence of a membrane-bound cell nucleus and contain additional membrane-bound compartments called organelles(such as mitochondria in animals and plants and plastids in plants and algae, all generally considered to be derived from endosymbiotic bacteria).[1] Fungi, animals and plants are examples of kingdoms of organisms within the eukaryotes.

Exceprt:

ORGANISM (semantics)

The word "organism" may broadly be defined as an assembly of molecules functioning as a more or less stable whole that exhibits the properties of life. However, many sources propose definitions that exclude viruses and theoretically possible man-made non-organic life forms.[18] Viruses are dependent on the biochemical machinery of a host cell for reproduction.
Chambers Online Reference provides a broad definition: "any living structure, such as a plant, animal, fungus or bacterium, capable of growth and reproduction".[19]

In multicellular terms, "organism" usually describes the whole hierarchical assemblage of systems (for example circulatory, digestive, or reproductive) themselves collections of organs; these are, in turn, collections of tissues, which are themselves made of cells. In some plants and the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans, individual cells are totipotent.
A superorganism is an organism consisting of many individuals working together as a single functional or social unit.

Totipotent: Having unlimited capability.

A totipotent cell has the capacity to form an entire organism. Human development begins when a sperm fertilizes an egg and creates a single totipotent cell. In the first hours after fertilization, this cell divides into identical totipotent cells. Approximately four days after fertilization and after several cycles of cell division, these totipotent cells begin to specialize.

Totipotent is as opposed to pluripotent and multipotent. Totipotent cells have total potential. They specialize into pluripotent cells that can give rise to most, but not all, of the tissues necessary for fetal development. Pluripotent cells undergo further specialization into multipotent cells that are committed to give rise to cells that have a particular function. For example, multipotent blood stem cells give rise to the red cells, white cells and platelets in the blood.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=18261

and
Non-cellular life

Viruses are not typically considered to be organisms because they are incapable of autonomous reproduction, growth or metabolism. This controversy is problematic because some cellular organisms are also incapable of independent survival (but not of independent metabolism and procreation) and live as obligatory intracellular parasites. A totipotent cell has the capacity to form an entire organism Although viruses have a few enzymes and molecules characteristic of living organisms, they have no metabolism of their own and cannot synthesize and organize the organic compounds that form them. Naturally, this rules out autonomous reproduction and they can only be passively replicated by the machinery of the host cell. In this sense they are similar to inanimate matter. While viruses sustain no independent metabolism, and thus are usually not accounted organisms, they do have their own genes and they do evolve by similar mechanisms by which organisms evolve.

The most common argument in support of viruses as living organisms is their ability to undergo evolution and replicate through self-assembly. Some scientists argue that viruses neither evolve, nor self- reproduce. In fact, viruses are evolved by their host cells, meaning that there was co-evolution of viruses and host cells. If host cells did not exist, viral evolution would be impossible. This is not true for cells. If viruses did not exist, the direction of evolution could be different; however, the ability to evolve would not be affected. As for the reproduction, viruses totally rely on hosts' machinery to replicate themselves.[20] The discovery of viral megagenomes with genes coding for energy metabolism and protein synthesis fueled the debate about whether viruses belong on the tree of life. The presence of these genes suggested that viruses could metabolize in the past. It was found later that the genes coding for energy and protein metabolism have cellular origin. Most likely, they were acquired through horizontal gene transfer from viral hosts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism

You are asking for interim models of "inert structures" becoming "living organisms".

I believe I just presented you with some "intermediate steps" from inert to reactive. The lucky "organism" which managed to do all those partial functions together so that it became independent of it's immediate environment, WAS alive, and in the mean time some were safely tucked away inside a host and apparently thrived. Viruses are still around in abundance, at last count.
And we do not have a place for it on the Tree of life? A remarkable example of symbiotic evolution.
 
Last edited:
I'm quietly confident that if we consider the following definition of Invention:
in·ven·tion
noun \in-ˈven(t)-shən\
Definition of INVENTION
3a : something invented: as
(1) : a product of the imagination; especially : a false conception
(2) : a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment

Source

When read "invention", in the context that it was presented in AId's Post - and then I read your Source
merriam-webster.com said:
invention
in·ven·tion noun
Definition of INVENTION
1 : discovery, finding

2 : productive imagination : inventiveness

3 a ; something invented: as (1) : a product of the imagination; especially : a false conception (2) : a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment
3 b : a short keyboard composition featuring two- or three-part counterpoint

4 : the act or process of inventing
Source

Trippy, I honestly considered the full definition of Invention as provided by merriam-webster : 1 ; 2 ; 3 a (1) ; 3 a (2) ; 3 b ; and 4.

I sought clarification from AId because I did not want to "assume", nor "presume", nor "misunderstand" the caveats that I mentioned from his otherwise "very insightful' and 'quite knowledgeable" Post.

That Aqueous ID is meaning invention in the first context presented, rather than the second, which you are trying to shoe-horn his words into.

I'm sorry , Trippy, but honestly I was not, and still am not, "trying to shoe-horn" anyone's "words into" anything.
 
Trippy, I honestly considered the full definition of Invention as provided by merriam-webster : 1 ; 2 ; 3 a (1) ; 3 a (2) ; 3 b ; and 4.



It's the definition of "SCIENCE" that is the real issue here.
In other words, "SCIENCE", or "KNOWLEDGE" are not covered by the broad definition of "INVENTION" you want to paint science with.
"SCIENCE" or "KNOWLEDGE" is gathered, obtained and worked for within the great broad discipline of "SCIENCE" as we have grown accustomed to recognising.
 
Science = the honest methodical examination of our world and it's existence. Just a musing.

Oh, a little tidbit, Wiki
See also: Common descent and Origin of life

Last universal ancestor[edit]

Main article: Last universal ancestor

The last universal ancestor is the most recent organism from which all organisms now living on Earth descend.[22] Thus it is the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all current life on Earth. The LUA is estimated to have lived some 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago (sometime in the Paleoarchean era).[23][24] The earliest evidences for life on Earth are graphite found to be biogenic in 3.7 billion-year-old metasedimentary rocks discovered in Western Greenland[25] and microbial mat fossils found in 3.48 billion-year-old sandstone discovered in Western Australia.[26][27]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism#Last_universal_ancestor
Will wonders never stop?
 
No it didn't - That was Lewin's interpretation of the result of the consequence.
ah yes, more alleged "shoddy reporting".
an assumption on your part trippy, you weren't there.
it's amazing how you can smear the name of a respected source like this.
whether you consider it shoddy or not, the above conclusion WAS reached by the conference and that conclusion was printed inside the pages of a well respected source.

remember also, "science" never issued any errata, corrections, or retractions regarding this matter.
 
No, they all came from food which was (in 99% of cases) not alive.
life comes from life.
science HAS NEVER observed life coming from non life despite the 1000s, maybe 10s of 1000s, of attempts of trying.
Your body turns those materials into new cells.
"new cells" come from other living cells which divide to produce the "new cell"
(Which is a good thing; if every cell had to come from another cell, you would currently be a one cell organism.)
are you actually saying cells do not divide into 2 cells?
 
life comes from life.
science HAS NEVER observed life coming from non life despite the 1000s, maybe 10s of 1000s, of attempts of trying.
We have never observed life being created by a supernatural being either. On that basis would you agree that the creationists are also wrong?
 
***Note : all Highlight by dmoe***

I am fairly certain that every definition - of Anything and Everything in the Known Universe, whether a physical reality or an abstract construct- is one invented by some person or culture of people.
I'm quietly confident that if we consider the following definition of Invention:
in·ven·tion
noun \in-ˈven(t)-shən\
Definition of INVENTION
3a : something invented: as
(1) : a product of the imagination; especially : a false conception
(2) : a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment

Source

That Aqueous ID is meaning invention in the first context presented, rather than the second, which you are trying to shoe-horn his words into.

Trippy as I stated in my previous response to your Post #1048 :
I'm sorry , Trippy, but honestly I was not, and still am not, "trying to shoe-horn" anyone's "words into" anything.

However I could not help but notice the following from Post #1050, that the Poster, "quoted" below, does seem to be :
So science is knowledge. And of course we all know knowledge is not invented...it is obtained through observation, experimentation, and time.

Trippy, that is just an Observation - Not an Accusation.
 
No, they all came from food which was (in 99% of cases) not alive. Your body turns those materials into new cells. (Which is a good thing; if every cell had to come from another cell, you would currently be a one cell organism.)

billvon, I can accept your first two (2) statements, but I cannot concur with the "(Which is a good thing; if every cell had to come from another cell, you would currently be a one cell organism.)" part.

billvon, you may possibly have simply forgotten about mitosis or meiosis?

A little information about mitosis can be found at this Link : http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/mitosis

A little information about meiosis can be found at this Link : http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/meiosis

And where did the material for the cell to increase its size come from?

Trippy, I clearly stated : "billvon, I can accept your first two (2) statements".

billvon, and myself were discussing the "number" of cells and the methods utilized in cellular biology to increase the "number of cells".
Our discussion did not concern the "size" of the cells.
Though, of course an increase in the total amount of cells in any organism would most likely contribute to an increase in the "size" of that organism.

People always forget.
Trippy, again I am sorry, but I cannot concur with the ^^above quoted^^ statement.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry , Trippy, but honestly I was not, and still am not, "trying to shoe-horn" anyone's "words into" anything.

I disagree - your entire argument on that matter was based on a premise that required a wrong interpretation of Aqueous ID's words - it required the interpretation of the word 'invent' in a manner that was clearly contextually wrong. Therefore, shoehorning.
 
Back
Top