Fetal ability to feel pain pinpointed at 35 weeks

billvon said:
You're killing a (potential) person, and that's never something you should contemplate unless there is a very, very good reason.
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'Potential' people huh? Interesting. But how, exactly, do you define a 'potential' human being? Is an egg a potential human being? What about a sperm? How about an egg surrounded by a bunch of sperm that are in the process of trying to penetrate it? Or is it the precise instant that a sperm could be said to have penetrated an egg? Ultimately, everyone has to draw the line somewhere.
 
Killing potential people is not a big deal.

We deny potential all the time. I'm single right now. Therefore babies may not be conceived. And what about the potential babies that could have been born if I didn't insist on using extra safe condoms whenever I do have sex?

Hmm. I see it as way worse than a minor injury. You're killing a (potential) person, and that's never something you should contemplate unless there is a very, very good reason.

When the worst that can happen is going to an ER and getting a splint, you can take such risks without too much thought. When it involves ending a potential human life, a LOT more thought should go into taking those risks. (IMO of course.)

As an alternative scenario, let's say you were working as a laborer and are barely able to support your family. Any physical injury that made you unable to labor would result in your being unemployed. Your decision to risk injury in a martial arts class will likely be different in that case. Same risk of injury, but the results of that injury might be much worse (family evicted, hungry etc.)
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Yes - and to apply this again to the subject of abortion, I do not see having an abortion as something to avoid at all costs, as being so severely injured that you cannot support yourself and a family is. Your reasoning only holds if you consider abortion something you must not do no matter what.

I don't. I don't consider terminating something potential to be 'killing' anyone. I care about real people - not hypothetical ones.
 
Rav said:
'Potential' people huh? Interesting. But how, exactly, do you define a 'potential' human being? Is an egg a potential human being? What about a sperm? How about an egg surrounded by a bunch of sperm that are in the process of trying to penetrate it? Or is it the precise instant that a sperm could be said to have penetrated an egg? Ultimately, everyone has to draw the line somewhere.
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Indeed. If potential is what matters I am a murderer right now simply for not having children.
 
visceral_instinct said:
Nobody said that screw ups were something to encourage, or not work on.

All FR said is they will happen so accept that they happen and minimize the screwups and their consequences.

I see no reason to abstain JUST because every method has a fail rate. I see abortion as the same as going to the hospital to have an injury treated after, say, falling awkwardly in martial arts class and damaging a joint. It's better to train sanely in the first place, yes. It's better not to spar with someone who weighs over twice your weight (says the hypocrite, lol). But it's not wrong to go to the hospital to get seen to and I certainly wouldn't advise someone to simply give the sport up based on the fact that injuries can happen (analogous to abstinence). Because there are more important things in life than never being hurt.
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VI there is no MORAL problem with getting an abortion but i do dissagree that its just a minor treatment pysiologically. Abortions (done surgically OR medically) do come with great risks to the women. Furthermore they are highly traumatic. I dont know if you have ever had one but my sister in law has and her comment afterwards was "no matter what i will never have that done again". If your apsolutly serious that you NEVER want children and you will never change that opinion you should get sterilised, if you might change your mind can i suggest something like implinon. Yes it does play with the hormons in the body but it is FAR less risky than a monthly abortion
 
visceral_instinct said:
Bingo. A common argument that I've been hearing a lot lately is that abortions are 'cruel' and that the baby feels 'terrible pain'.

Unless you have an abortion very late for god only knows why, there is no possibility of such thing.
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so once again, I guess we have to ask you, how does an absence of pain suddenly render the act more /less legitimate.
:shrug:
 
Monthly abortion? I'm not that reckless. I don't do anything below the belt without a condom. I also insist on using the extra safe ones. Don't like it, too bad. When he can get pregnant via his rectum he can complain about a mild loss of sensation.

And the idea of abortions being a 'trauma' was debunked.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21557713
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19968372
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/12/20/study-debunks-theory-abortion-trauma

Furthermore, I fail to see why in my personal case, abortion would be traumatic. I don't want a child. I wouldn't see it as a loss or a trauma when the RU486 flushes it out.
 
Asguard said:
...Abortions (done surgically OR medically) do come with great risks to the women. Furthermore they are highly traumatic. ...
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great risks to some women, not all. And traumatic to some women, not all.

abortions are a medical procedure and should be treated as such. Some doctors put women in a 'twilight sleep', some don't. Every doctor is different and every patient is different.
 
I suspect I would have no problem with an abortion.

I remember once I was scheduled to have minor surgery on my eyelid. I couldn't wait, I thought it was so cool. I'd use the excuse of being 17 at the time, but honestly I'm just as morbid now. I actually ended up not needing it because the blocked gland opened up on its own but I was honestly looking forward to it. I'd probably be the exact same with abortion.
 
Im just passing on what she told me, and those look like medical abortions, not surgical (RU486 is still limited in Australia). And no she wasnt put under Orleander, infact i wouldnt expect most doctors WOULD give someone a general for that. General anasetic carries risks and shouldnt be used unless vital to the operation. Medaz on the other hand might well be used (sedation)
 
It all comes down to why people think they need to have sex, even when they don't want to have children.
 
I couldn't really care less why people have sex.

We should not punish people with pregnancy for having sex any more than we punish people with lack of medical attention if they crash their car.
 
S.A.M. said:
Two things in my opinion

1. A presumption that all human beings have a right to life

2. The lack of consent or the inability to give consent to take away this right by the victim
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Let me assist you I think #1 should be:

A human being should recognize the right to life of a fellow human for being a member of humanity.
 
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