Fetal ability to feel pain pinpointed at 35 weeks

[cosmictraveler]

We now have FREE birth control pills for women and just introduced a pill for men. With the pill everyone can prevent pregnancy if they are responsible and take those pills. So today there's no excuses for unwanted pregnancies any longer so abortions should be on their way out for the most part. Within a decade abortions won't even be heard of IF everyone does their part in educating the public about birth control method's.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

@Sam

It doesn't progress the discussion when you use quotes put forward by people who are clearly insane.

The heading of your quoted source is:
Bipolar Christianity: How Torturing "Sinful" Children Produced Holy Wars


I hope you aren't going to use this source repeatedly.
It is rabid nonsense.

 

[Asguard]

We now have FREE birth control pills for women and just introduced a pill for men. With the pill everyone can prevent pregnancy if they are responsible and take those pills. So today there's no excuses for unwanted pregnancies any longer so abortions should be on their way out for the most part. Within a decade abortions won't even be heard of IF everyone does their part in educating the public about birth control method's.

what about ectopic pregancy and genetic deformities where the parents belive the fetus would be better not being born?

 

[cosmictraveler]

what about ectopic pregancy and genetic deformities where the parents belive the fetus would be better not being born?

That is another question altogether. If there was a complication I'd think that the mother should be the one to make her decision as to which choices she should make but there should be choices available .

 

[Asguard]

That is another question altogether. If there was a complication I'd think that the mother should be the one to make her decision as to which choices she should make but there should be choices available .

Umm Actually i would think that in the situation of a planned and desired pregancy of a commited couple in that situation it would be HIGHLY unnusual for the mother to make that decision alone.

As for ectopic there IS no decision, its a case of operate or die

 

[Captain Kremmen]

A typical argument using extreme circumstances.

eg.
Severely disabled children who will not live beyond a few days.
Girl children of tender years, pregnant by a rapist father.
Women with cancer, or other life threatening illnesses, whose treatments necessitate the death of their unborn child.
etc.

This is often the precursor to justifying abortion as a form of contraception.
Do you believe that is acceptable?

 

[S.A.M.]

A typical argument using extreme circumstances.

eg.
Severely disabled children who will not live beyond a few days.
Girl children of tender years, pregnant by a rapist father.
Women with cancer, or other life threatening illnesses, whose treatments necessitate the death of their unborn child.
etc.

This is often the precursor to justifying abortion as a form of contraception.
Do you believe that is acceptable?

I think everyone should make up their own minds since that is what they will do anyway. I am pointing out that the "moral" argument of pain is actually irrelevant. Its up to the person who carries the child how much she values it as a person. If not, stopping her from aborting the child will not increase the value of that child. At one time it was socially acceptable to strangle or drown unwanted children. Why isn't it so now? Who values that unwanted child?

Also, in terms of consent, we do not accept that the girl of tender years who is pregnant by her father can consent to the relationship. That is another "moral" argument. The fetus is in any case incapable of consenting to its demise.

 

[billvon]

With the pill everyone can prevent pregnancy if they are responsible and take those pills.

Well, everyone could always prevent pregnancy if they were responsible, period. Unfortunately some people aren't, and no matter how easy you make contraception, some people will screw up/not think/misunderstand.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Umm Actually i would think that in the situation of a planned and desired pregancy of a commited couple in that situation it would be HIGHLY unnusual for the mother to make that decision alone.

As for ectopic there IS no decision, its a case of operate or die

While I agree that the mother would seek advice from others like doctors and her husband , she alone will make the final decision which is what I meant. Sorry I wasn't clear on my first statement.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Well, everyone could always prevent pregnancy if they were responsible, period. Unfortunately some people aren't, and no matter how easy you make contraception, some people will screw up/not think/misunderstand.

Spoken like a "real man."

Every method of contraception (except surgery, which is not reliably reversible) has a non-zero failure rate. Yes, it's often because someone forgets to take a pill because her mother died last night or something horrible like that, but these things happen every day. It has nothing to do with "responsibility." No one can be expected to stick to their daily routine under that kind of stress.

 

[Asguard]

While I agree that the mother would seek advice from others like doctors and her husband , she alone will make the final decision which is what I meant. Sorry I wasn't clear on my first statement.

only if she wants the end of that commited relationship

 

[billvon]

Every method of contraception (except surgery, which is not reliably reversible) has a non-zero failure rate.

Abstinence has a zero failure rate.

Yes, it's often because someone forgets to take a pill because her mother died last night or something horrible like that, but these things happen every day. It has nothing to do with "responsibility." No one can be expected to stick to their daily routine under that kind of stress.

Some can, some can't. Like I said, no matter how easy you make contraception, some people will screw up.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Abstinence has a zero failure rate.

I guess rape never happens in your country. You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the term "failure rate." It doesn't only mean that even though you do what you're supposed to do, you don't get the expected results. It also includes not doing what you're supposed to do because you're a human, not a machine.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that even machines have a failure rate.

With a ridiculously unrealistic attitude lilke yours, I sure hope you're not raising any children. They'll spend twenty years in therapy trying to get over it. "Hey kid, how many times do I have to tell you that you're expected to be 100% perfect! How dare you screw up in my home!"

Some can, some can't. Like I said, no matter how easy you make contraception, some people will screw up.

We all screw up, usually several times a day. It's utterly unreasonable to expect that in a population of seven billion people, no screw-ups will happen.

I suppose that you don't bother carrying liability insurance because you know nothing that goes wrong will ever be your fault.

 

[visceral_instinct]

We now have FREE birth control pills for women and just introduced a pill for men. With the pill everyone can prevent pregnancy if they are responsible and take those pills. So today there's no excuses for unwanted pregnancies any longer so abortions should be on their way out for the most part. Within a decade abortions won't even be heard of IF everyone does their part in educating the public about birth control method's.

Don't moralize about what you clearly haven't taken the time to find out about.

Birth control pills are not harmless. We are talking about dumping extra estrogen or progesterone in your blood to make your body think you are already pregnant. That has all kinds of side effects and if you are adolescent and would like to continue growing they're not a good idea. If you want to gain muscle they're also not a good idea.

No one should be expected to mess up their endocrine system or be lambasted for being irresponsible.

I do recommend using more than one method such as condom and spermicidal gel, but you telling people to just take pills is not okay.

 

[visceral_instinct]

No, I think Vis is suggesting that it does play a part.
So you see no difference between supporting an opinion and clarifying a possibly misunderstood opinion?

Bingo. A common argument that I've been hearing a lot lately is that abortions are 'cruel' and that the baby feels 'terrible pain'.

Unless you have an abortion very late for god only knows why, there is no possibility of such thing.

 

[spidergoat]

Don't moralize about what you clearly haven't taken the time to find out about.

Birth control pills are not harmless. ...

The male contraceptive pill evidently doesn't work the same way as the woman's pill.

 

[visceral_instinct]

I don't know a lot about the male version so am not in a position to comment. But on the female one...yeah, nobody should be talking about this like it's the least a woman can do.

Use a condom plus another barrier method or spermicidal gel if you're super paranoid. I am not a fan of fucking around with your endocrine system though.

 

[billvon]

I guess rape never happens in your country.

Yes, it does - but is fortunately very rare. Heck, legend has it that there was even a virgin birth a few thousand years ago. But barring such things, abstinence works very reliably.

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the term "failure rate." It doesn't only mean that even though you do what you're supposed to do, you don't get the expected results. It also includes not doing what you're supposed to do because you're a human, not a machine.

Agreed. That's why there is a failure rate.

With a ridiculously unrealistic attitude lilke yours, I sure hope you're not raising any children.

Sorry to disappoint you.

They'll spend twenty years in therapy trying to get over it. "Hey kid, how many times do I have to tell you that you're expected to be 100% perfect! How dare you screw up in my home!"

Does that mean your kids will spend their lives pregnant and fighting STD's, since you told them "there's no way to make sure?" Or do you think perhaps there is a middle ground between those two ridiculous extremes?

We all screw up, usually several times a day. It's utterly unreasonable to expect that in a population of seven billion people, no screw-ups will happen.

Screw-ups do happen, quite often. No one is perfect. And when they DO happen, much better to admit "I screwed up; I should do better next time."

 

[visceral_instinct]

Nobody said that screw ups were something to encourage, or not work on.

All FR said is they will happen so accept that they happen and minimize the screwups and their consequences.

I see no reason to abstain JUST because every method has a fail rate. I see abortion as the same as going to the hospital to have an injury treated after, say, falling awkwardly in martial arts class and damaging a joint. It's better to train sanely in the first place, yes. It's better not to spar with someone who weighs over twice your weight (says the hypocrite, lol). But it's not wrong to go to the hospital to get seen to and I certainly wouldn't advise someone to simply give the sport up based on the fact that injuries can happen (analogous to abstinence). Because there are more important things in life than never being hurt.

 

[billvon]

I see no reason to abstain JUST because every method has a fail rate.

If someone absolutely, positively cannot live with a pregnancy (i.e. it will pose a serious health risk, they absolutely cannot afford a child etc) then abstention (or sterilization) is a very good idea.

I see abortion as the same as going to the hospital to have an injury treated after, say, falling awkwardly in martial arts class and damaging a joint.

Hmm. I see it as way worse than a minor injury. You're killing a (potential) person, and that's never something you should contemplate unless there is a very, very good reason.

When the worst that can happen is going to an ER and getting a splint, you can take such risks without too much thought. When it involves ending a potential human life, a LOT more thought should go into taking those risks. (IMO of course.)

As an alternative scenario, let's say you were working as a laborer and are barely able to support your family. Any physical injury that made you unable to labor would result in your being unemployed. Your decision to risk injury in a martial arts class will likely be different in that case. Same risk of injury, but the results of that injury might be much worse (family evicted, hungry etc.)

It's better to train sanely in the first place, yes. It's better not to spar with someone who weighs over twice your weight (says the hypocrite, lol). But it's not wrong to go to the hospital to get seen to and I certainly wouldn't advise someone to simply give the sport up based on the fact that injuries can happen (analogous to abstinence). Because there are more important things in life than never being hurt.

Absolutely. But you have to make that decision based not just on the risk of going to the ER, but also what will happen after that. If you will lose your job due to an injury (or worse!) it would be wise to consider that BEFORE you get injured.

In my opinion you have the right to risk your own health, but you do not have the right to risk someone else's. And the risk you are taking is not always just the risk of going to the hospital.