Feminism and Islam

[James R]

The following is an extract from an article by Karen Green, a lecturer in philosophy and feminism at Monash University, Australia. I am interested in your thoughts on this.

In heated exchanges, my sister tried to convince me that Islam and feminism are not incompatible. "It is true," she said, "that Islam places restrictions on women's behaviour. Look at the way women are treated as sex objects in the West. Wearing a headscarf, I am respected as a Muslim woman, and no man would dare whistle at me in the street, or touch me up, or any of those things that used to happen before I adopted Muslim dress."

...

Most importantly, it is simply not true that Islam fails to treat women as sex objects. In fact, women are so sexualised within Islamic society that it is assumed that any private encounter between a woman and a man will be sexual. Women are thus assumed to have two functions, and these are sex and child-bearing.

By submitting to the adoption of an outward sign of modesty, the headscarf, chador or burqa, women allow men to divide and conquer. Women are either "good" - which is to say obedient - or they are "bad". Bad women are sluts, who are despised and assumed to be generally available.

... In fac, by wearing the headscarf, chador or burqa, women allow themselves to be reduced to objects, each equivalent to the other.

A practical consequence of the way women are sexualised in Islamic society is a tendency towards separatism. Women live in a women's sphere within the home; men interact with men in the public arena. Women know little of what men are saying in their all-male company, and are kept busy in the home producing babies and dinner. This makes it almost impossible for women to influence men's ideas. A society in which men and women have an equal say cannot be a separatist society in which elaborate restrictions prevent the sexes from talking freely to each other.

... But Islamic women are placed in an awkward position. Since feminism has developed in the West, it is very easy for Muslim men to accuse those women who want the freedoms that Western women enjoy, of being bad Muslims. Muslim women need to call their bluff.

If Muslim men really have the interests of women at heart, and if Muslim women are recognised as men's spiritual equals within Islam, one would expect to see Muslim women publicly expressing their views about their interests, preaching in the mosques, sitting on the council of imams, and arguing in public with their menfolk over the structure of the good society and over the interpretation of Islam. But, with a couple of notable exceptions, Muslim women remain almost invisible and largely unheard. I suspect this will only change when they throw off the bugbear of sexual modesty, which is used to such pernicious effect on their liberty.

This brings me to the last, and perhaps most controversial of my personal reflections on Islam and feminism. Muslim women claim to wear the headscarf, or other more voluminous covering, out of modesty. I suspect that, in fact, the veil is attractive to women because it subtly appeals to their vanity. Islam tells women that, no matter how plain, old or ill-favoured she is, the sight of her uncovered hair will be so stimulating that any man who sees it will lose control of his passions. Thus, beneath her modest covering, a Muslim woman can imagine herself the most desirable creature possible. Women who operate freely in society, conversing with men on a daily basis, are, in the end, forced to form a just assessment of their desirability. Unless she is particularly young and pretty, a woman will be made well aware of most men's indifference to her charms. She will find, in the long run, that likeable men will like her as much for her character, skills and wit, as for her beauty. It is when woman's sexuality is not shrouded that it ceases to be an object of mystery and passion to men, and women have the greatest chance of being treated as more than sexual objects.

...But in order for women to operate as equals in the public sphere, it has to be assumed that the bulk of interactions between men and women are non-sexual. Muslim women are wrong if they think that the headscarf prevents them from being treated as sex objects. In fact it confirms that that is their social status.

 

[spookz]

as a moslem woman, i find it both insulting and arousing to be exposed in such a perfidious manner

take me now o jamesr! hurry

 

[WildBlueYonder]

as a moslem woman, i find it both insulting and arousing to be exposed in such a perfidious manner

take me now o jamesr! hurry

you are too funny spookz

 

[WildBlueYonder]

The following is an extract from an article by Karen Green, a lecturer in philosophy and feminism at Monash University, Australia. I am interested in your thoughts on this.

the funny thing is, that up to the time that Mohammad was married to his first wife (a rich powerful woman), he never put women in secondary positions. Women could & did fill positions of wealth & power. Then after her death, old Mo' just couldn't control himself (he went sexually wild), so out of shame, he set out to control women with the veil, burkah, purdah, etc. so that he wouldn't 'see' them, (you know, "out of sight, out of mind"). Under islam, men could have only 4 wives under allah's law, yet Mo' had more. Why? He was a lawbreaker.

BTW, up until the rise of the modern era, most women never had any real political power, but several islamic countries have had women as their prime ministers; Pakistan, Turkey & Indonesia. Which I think equals the West; with Israel, England & the Philippines. (Don’t remember if Sweden & Finland, maybe?)

 

[Proud_Muslim]

the funny thing is, that up to the time that Mohammad was married to his first wife (a rich powerful woman), he never put women in secondary positions. Women could & did fill positions of wealth & power. Then after her death, old Mo' just couldn't control himself (he went sexually wild), so out of shame, he set out to control women with the veil, burkah, purdah, etc. so that he wouldn't 'see' them, (you know, "out of sight, out of mind"). Under islam, men could have only 4 wives under allah's law, yet Mo' had more. Why? He was a lawbreaker.

Isnt absurd to see CHRISTIAN FANATIC talks and peaches about Islam ?? no need to address the above LIES and FABRICATIONS, instead, I have something more interesting:


X-Rated Pornography in the Bible:

Women's breasts are important sexual objects:

The Bible in numerous places teaches us about women's breasts and talks about them at the same time it is talking about sexual fantasies and intercourse.

Comparing the sister's breasts to the size of the towers :

Let us look at the following verses: "We have a young sister, and her breasts are not yet grown. What shall we do for our sister for the day she is spoken for? (Song of Songs 8:8)" and later about the sister....."I am a wall, and my breasts are like towers. Thus I have become in his eyes like one bringing contentment. (Song of Songs 8:10)"

Let us look at Song of Songs 4:5 "Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies."

Let us look at Proverbs 5:19 "A loving doe, a graceful deer, may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love." Could it be meant to say "may her breasts sexually satisfy you"?

Song of Songs 1:13 "My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts."


Praising the bed that they had sex on: :

Song of Songs 1:16 "How handsome you are, my lover! Oh, how charming! And our bed is verdant"

Having sex all night long:

Proverbs 7:18 "Come, let's drink deep of love till morning; let's enjoy ourselves with love!"

Let us look at Song of Songs 1:2-4 "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth-- for your love is more delightful than wine. Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the maidens love you! Take me away with you--let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers. We rejoice and delight in you; we will praise your love more than wine. How right they are to adore you! " I don't think this would be appropriate for a kid under 18 to read. Also, I don't think it is appropriate to have such open sexuality in a divine book anyway.

His right arm sexually feeling her body: Let us look at Song of Songs 2:6 "His left arm is under my head, and his right arm embraces me."

Song of Songs 3:4 "Scarcely had I passed them when I found the one my heart loves. I held him and would not let him go till I had brought him to my mother's house, to the room of the one who conceived me." So in other words, she was not married to him, and when she found him, she took him back to her bed room to have illegal sex with him? If she were married to him, she wouldn't take him to her "mother's house". She would take him to their house.

Let us look at Song of Songs 3:10 "Its posts he made of silver, its base of gold. Its seat was upholstered with purple, its interior lovingly inlaid by the daughters of Jerusalem." Why does the Bible teach young men to spend all of their time and effort to try to impress all of the girls in their town so they can possibly end in bed with them?

Fantasizing about a girl he calls his "sister":

Her vagina tastes like wine for him. And they had sex all night long. After he satisfied her really good, she wished if he were her brother (her biological brother nursed by her "mother's breast" as she said) so she doesn't have to take him home secretly:

Note: Even though she may not be his biological sister, but calling her a "sister" in a pornographic and sick situation as shown in details below is not proper, and may suggest that the sick pervert would fantasize about his biological sister if he had one.

Let us look at Song of Songs 4:9 "You have stolen my heart, my sister, my bride; you have stolen my heart with one glance of your eyes, with one jewel of your necklace." Fantasizing about his sister? at least he shows in this verse that he would!.

Also Song of Songs 4:10 "How delightful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much more pleasing is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your perfume than any spice!" Making love to his own sister? "pleasing is your love (making???) than wine"?

Let us look at Song of Songs 4:12 "You are a garden locked up, my sister, my bride; you are a spring enclosed, a sealed fountain."

Sleeping with his sister:

Let us look at Song of Songs 5:4 "I slept but my heart was awake. Listen! My lover is knocking: 'Open to me, my sister, my darling, my dove, my flawless one. My head is drenched with dew, my hair with the dampness of the night.' I have taken off my robe [showed off his groin in other words] must I put it on again? I have washed my feet, must I soil them again? My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him." What a disgusting way for someone to talk so pervertly about his sister like that!!.

Let us look at Song of Songs 5:8 "O daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you-- if you find my lover, what will you tell him? Tell him I am faint with love." Teaching women to be sexually too open.

Her vagina tastes like wine:

"How beautiful your sandaled feet, O prince's daughter! Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands. Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine. Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies. Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle. Your neck is like an ivory tower. Your eyes are the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath Rabbi.
.......
I said 'I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.' May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine. (The NIV Bible, Song of Songs 7:1-4, 8-9)"

http://www.biblesexstories.com

http://www.evilbible.com

 

[Proud_Muslim]

The following is an extract from an article by Karen Green, a lecturer in philosophy and feminism at Monash University, Australia. I am interested in your thoughts on this.

ISLAMIC TRADITIONS AND THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT:
CONFRONTATION OR COOPERATION?

Dr. Lois Lamya' al Faruqi

Whether living in the Middle East or Africa, in Central Asia, in
Pakistan, in Southeast Asia, or in Europe and the Americas, Muslim
women tend to view the feminist movement with some apprehension.
Although there are some features of the feminist cause with which we
as Muslims would wish to join hands, other features generate our
disappointment and even opposition. There is therefore no simple or
"pat" answer to the question of the future cooperation or competition
which feminism may meet in an Islamic environment.

http://www.jannah.org/sisters/feminism.html

A Must read Article about the Islamic traditions and the Feminist movement.

<img src="http://www.muslimtents.com/muslimguide/images/tajmahal.jpg" width="600">

TAJ MAHAL: Muslim symbolism of eternal love and loyalty to women....show me who else in history built such wonderous palace to commemorate his wife but a MUSLIM ???

 

[Flores]

The following is an extract from an article by Karen Green, a lecturer in philosophy and feminism at Monash University, Australia. I am interested in your thoughts on this.

Feminism stems from the person, not from religion. Females and males alike set their own boudaries and define their own religion with their personality and actions. I think that discussions in regard to whether Hijab is a Islamic requirement or a CHOICE by a muslim women is futile. I personally believe it to be a CHOICE, and I respect others that choose it, should I be trying to convince a women to take off a head scarf....BIG NO...Should she be trying to convince me to PUT ONE ON to become a better or purer MUSLIM, BIG NO. This is not abortion here, only the wearer of the Hijab is the person at most stake, and thus that person who decides to wear a hijab should be free to choice without external negative or positive influences....That way the choice is personal and only the person is accountable.... but really that's the end of discussion.

Now on the subject of rape and Hijab, I wanted to share with PMS the story below...It's the story of a a girl that I actually know. Rape is about control, violation, and humilation. And the girl in the story was subjected to all the above....Although the muslim girl in the story didn't get any part of her body touched, I feel as if she suffered from the same phsycological consequences of a rape ....and yes, if I was in her shoes, I would equally punch the guy, prefferably in the groin. So the moral of the story is that my daughter is not going to put a Hijab on, she will be a black belt Karate instead.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_tugofwar.html

I was under the illusion of being safe with my Hijab, of feeling protected from curious looks. I thought I was free from ugly sexual looks or degrading stares. Little did I know that the Hijab itself attracted unwanted stares and vicious curiosities, stares of a different kind. Indeed I was as free as a bird in the vast blue sky is from a hunter. Brett had caught me in a cage enamored with the bars of caution.

 

[Markx]

the funny thing is, that up to the time that Mohammad was married to his first wife (a rich powerful woman), he never put women in secondary positions. Women could & did fill positions of wealth & power. Then after her death, old Mo' just couldn't control himself (he went sexually wild), so out of shame, he set out to control women with the veil, burkah, purdah, etc. so that he wouldn't 'see' them, (you know, "out of sight, out of mind"). Under islam, men could have only 4 wives under allah's law, yet Mo' had more. Why? He was a lawbreaker.
?)

There you go again. Little kid in his fantasy world. When you do not know the history of Islam or Mohammad, I wonder why you even bother opening your mouth? Rando you need education. I love what walker said to you.........convert now and be saved.

 

[James R]

Proud_Muslim:

It seems you didn't even read the extract I posted. Or, if you did, you didn't understand it. All you managed to post was some stuff from the bible, which is, of course, totally irrelevant to the topic.

No wonder your views are so entrenched. You simply won't even consider points of view other than your own. Instead, you just stick an easy label on things you find challenging to your world view, and dismiss them outright.

Your "educated" response here was this:

Isnt absurd to see CHRISTIAN FANATIC talks and peaches about Islam ?? no need to address the above LIES and FABRICATIONS, instead, I have something more interesting:

What a smokescreen.

You've never heard of the writer of the article before, yet you label her a Christian fanatic. It's very easy to do that, isn't it? It means you don't have to think about what she wrote.

If the article was really full of lies and fabrications, as you claim, surely you'd be able to point out at least one such lie. But you can't do that, can you? You'd have to read the article, and, just maybe, think about it.

In contrast, I have read the article you linked to.It reads like an apology for Islam's failure to engage with any of the main issues of feminism. By characaturing feminism, the article manages to step around all the on-the-ground issues facing Muslim women. It has its own brand of wilful blindness.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Feminism stems from the person, not from religion. Females and males alike set their own boudaries and define their own religion with their personality and actions.

So the moral of the story is that my daughter is not going to put a Hijab on, she will be a black belt Karate instead.

of a different kind. Indeed I was as free as a bird in the vast blue sky is from a hunter. [/COLOR]

I agree, each indivudual most decide for themselves

Good for you & your daughter

This event would happen via curiousity & meaness for young people, fantasy & evil for adults. no justification for pulling the scarf, he really deserved a slap, but the girl was justified in hitting someone that had violated her personal space, clothing & beliefs. As a young girl, I suppose she was too shy to bring up her reasoniong for wearing a scarf to every class, but when you are diff, its hard for that person & sometimes for the others that don't know what to say or do.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

There you go again. Little kid in his fantasy world. When you do not know the history of Islam or Mohammad, I wonder why you even bother opening your mouth? Rando you need education. I love what walker said to you.........convert now and be saved.

got education, you need to know Christianity to be saved, you are lost boy

 

[WildBlueYonder]

TAJ MAHAL: Muslim symbolism of eternal love and loyalty to women....show me who else in history built such wonderous palace to commemorate his wife but a MUSLIM ???

too bad that it cost the Hindu people so much in sweat, blood & toil, to pay oppressive taxes to that fabled shah.
And what good does it serve you to have such a grand grave, if in life you lived like a slave?

http://ignca.nic.in/agra042.htm
http://www.tajhub.com/taj-mahal/introduction/taj_history.html
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/Culture/Archit/TajM.html

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud_Muslim:

It seems you didn't even read the extract I posted. Or, if you did, you didn't understand it. All you managed to post was some stuff from the bible, which is, of course, totally irrelevant to the topic.

It seems you did not see my response with TAJ MAHAL picture, scroll up james and read what I wrote.

No wonder your views are so entrenched. You simply won't even consider points of view other than your own. Instead, you just stick an easy label on things you find challenging to your world view, and dismiss them outright.

And since when non muslim can understand Islam let alone talks about its history ?? the fact that you quote someone non muslim to talk about feminism in islam is rather AMUSING

Your "educated" response here was this:

Since when moderators take sides in any debate ?

You've never heard of the writer of the article before, yet you label her a Christian fanatic. It's very easy to do that, isn't it? It means you don't have to think about what she wrote.

You misunderstood me, I was talking about ROF, this christian moron who posted some LIES about the life of the prophet muhammad(pbuh), GOD, James, you dont even see to who I was addressing my posts....TAKE IT EASY MAN....WEAR YOUR GLASSES.

If the article was really full of lies and fabrications, as you claim, surely you'd be able to point out at least one such lie. But you can't do that, can you? You'd have to read the article, and, just maybe, think about it.

As I said to you above, i find it very pathetic that anyone can be AN EXPERT ON ISLAM and write all kind of crap and BS.

In contrast, I have read the article you linked to.It reads like an apology for Islam's failure to engage with any of the main issues of feminism.

You see, here is the problem, what constitute feminism for you maybe constitutes something else for me and vice versa...why should I take YOUR version and your definition of feminism and consider it as STANDARD and adjust my thoughts and ideas to suit you ?? NOOOOOOO It does work this way.

The article I posted is not an apology for islam's failure, this is just not true, it is an explanation of why WESTERN FEMINISM does not work in the MUSLIM WORLD, we need to have our OWN version of feminism, feminism that stems from OUR culture and OUR religion not yours SIR.

By characaturing feminism, the article manages to step around all the on-the-ground issues facing Muslim women. It has its own brand of wilful blindness.

And of course you and the article writer know ALL the ' on-the-ground' issues facing muslim women, right ??

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Now on the subject of rape and Hijab, I wanted to share with PMS the story below...It's the story of a a girl that I actually know. Rape is about control, violation, and humilation. And the girl in the story was subjected to all the above....Although the muslim girl in the story didn't get any part of her body touched, I feel as if she suffered from the same phsycological consequences of a rape ....and yes, if I was in her shoes, I would equally punch the guy, prefferably in the groin. So the moral of the story is that my daughter is not going to put a Hijab on, she will be a black belt Karate instead.

Thank you sister for the interesting story, I agree with you that in paranoid societies, the hijab can bring unwanted looks, but in normal tolerant societies, it is very noraml, like the case in the U.K. where britons are now very used to see muslim women in headscarfs, in fact, Bolton Hospital in the north of England has half of its staff Muslims, Doctors and nurses and the muslim female doctors and nurses work there with their headscarfs, no problem at all.

people who cant tolerate the Hijab are paranoid people, it is not anyone business to tell my daughter or my wife what they should or should not wear as it is not my business as well to tell or force any woman to wear what they dont want to wear, like the case with you dear sister, you dont want to wear the headscarf and I RESPECT your decision and I accept it, you are still my Muslim sister...Islam is NOT only about headscarf.

Those who have problems with Islam use the Hijab as pretext, but if dont like it then we shall meet in court:

Islam: Veil ID woman wins case

Expatica (Belguim), Jan. 15, 2004
http://www.expatica.com

BRUSSELS – In a ruling set to create a country-wide precedent, a Muslim woman who went to court after being ordered to remove her veil for an identity photograph has won her case, Belgium's 'La Libre Belgique' newspaper reported today.

The appeal court in the city of Liège found in the woman’s favour, saying Belgian law did not require people in identity photographs to have their heads uncovered and their ears visible.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/5693-Veil_ID_woman_wins_case.html

 

[Proud_Muslim]

got education, you need to know Christianity to be saved, you are lost boy

Yes, I was reading about christianity and how the bibles views the earth, as everyone knows the bible claims the earth is FLAT.....here is some pictures:

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

The Biblical View of the Earth

Cosmas Indicopleustes' Tabernacle World View, Christian Topography, 6th century

Tabernacle world view in the Christian Topography, Cosmas Indicopleustes, 6th century. Found in the writings of Saint Paul that there was a passage which could be interpreted to mean that the Tabernacle was a picture of the world, it was quite natural for the Church Fathers to envision the world as a vast tabernacle: a tent with a rectangular base, twice as long as it was broad, and with an arched roof supported by for pillars. Both prophets and apostles, says Cosmas, agree that the Tabernacle was a true copy of the universe, the express image of the visible world. The Christian Topography has been preserved in two copies: one a parchment manuscript of the 10th century belonging to the Laurentian Library in Florence, and containing the whole work except the last leaf; the other, a very fine uncial manuscript of the 8th or 9th century, belonging to the Vatican Library, and containing sketches drawn by Cosmas himself, but wanting entirely the twelfth book, which is the last.

Woodcut depicting view of flat world

So becareful Man not to fall of the earth as the bible warned YOU:

"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

 

[James R]

Proud_Muslim:

I see you're still trying to distract attention from the topic of this thread. I wonder why.

And since when non muslim can understand Islam let alone talks about its history ?? the fact that you quote someone non muslim to talk about feminism in islam is rather AMUSING

Scholars often talk about things of which they have no direct experience. A criminologist, for example, may make insightful comments on crime and yet never have committed a crime herself. Similarly, religious scholars often have a far deeper knowledge of particular religions than the average practitioner. Why? Because they've studied the matter in depth.

How can a non-Muslim know about Islam? Well, for a start, he or she could read the Qu'ran, right? He or she can also read Muslim writings and talk to Muslims. It's not really that hard.

How can you comment on Christianity when you aren't a Christian, Proud_Muslim? Think about it.

As I said to you above, i find it very pathetic that anyone can be AN EXPERT ON ISLAM and write all kind of crap and BS.

Which parts are crap and BS? Please quote the article and explain for us. Otherwise, you're just spouting empty rhetoric.

why should I take YOUR version and your definition of feminism and consider it as STANDARD and adjust my thoughts and ideas to suit you ??

One point of the article is that you should find out what Muslim <b>women</b> think. And the article makes the point that Muslim women are rarely invited to express such a view.

The article I posted is not an apology for islam's failure, this is just not true, it is an explanation of why WESTERN FEMINISM does not work in the MUSLIM WORLD, we need to have our OWN version of feminism, feminism that stems from OUR culture and OUR religion not yours SIR.

Perhaps so. I can't argue with that until we get to the specifics.

And of course you and the article writer know ALL the ' on-the-ground' issues facing muslim women, right ??

She obviously knows about the ones she writes about in her article.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud_Muslim:

I see you're still trying to distract attention from the topic of this thread. I wonder why.

I am not trying to distract attention, I responded to you and I will continue to discuss Islam and feminism with you as we did in my Malaysia thread, but when some FANATIC christians come to here to preach BS and LIES against Islam, I need to deal with them and FIRMLY.

Scholars often talk about things of which they have no direct experience. A criminologist, for example, may make insightful comments on crime and yet never have committed a crime herself. Similarly, religious scholars often have a far deeper knowledge of particular religions than the average practitioner. Why? Because they've studied the matter in depth.

But james dont you think there is big difference between THEORY and PRACTICE ?

Those western self-appointed Islam scholars have no idea what are the nature of muslim societies, how we live, how we view the world.

it is worth noting that not only Islam that governs our lives but our culture as well.

Those people including you james are falling into the trap of western self-rightousness attitude ( ie: everything good for you must be good for the rest of the world ). you have to GIVE UP this way of looking at others because others might have some cultural traits that are far much better than yours.

How can a non-Muslim know about Islam? Well, for a start, he or she could read the Qu'ran, right? He or she can also read Muslim writings and talk to Muslims. It's not really that hard.

I agree, it is not that hard but reading the Quran and speaking with Muslims is not enough, Islam is 1424 years old, can you imagine the achievements and the cultural doses Islam injected in our lives and heritage from Indonesia in the east till Morocco in the west.

How can you comment on Christianity when you aren't a Christian, Proud_Muslim? Think about it.

Everyone can make a comment about anything, but you cant be SCHOLAR unless you spent long years studying the thing you want to talk about, I am not claiming to be scholar on christianity, but at least, when some pathetic christians come to here hoping to bash Islam and score some cheap points to advance their doctrine, it is MY duty to challenge them and play the game the way they understand it....dont you think ?

Which parts are crap and BS? Please quote the article and explain for us. Otherwise, you're just spouting empty rhetoric.

Sure, I shall address the article in different post.

One point of the article is that you should find out what Muslim <b>women</b> think. And the article makes the point that Muslim women are rarely invited to express such a view.

And what about the 33 SYRIAN women in the Syrian parliement?? I dont think these women are sitting in the parliement just to gossip !!

She obviously knows about the ones she writes about in her article.

Well, picking up individual cases and GENERALIZING them over ALL muslims is not HEALTHY NOR ACADEMIC, I WONDER HOW THIS SO CALLED PROFS CAN DO SUCH THINGS ??? :bugeye:

 

[Proud_Muslim]

The following is an extract from an article by Karen Green, a lecturer in philosophy and feminism at Monash University, Australia. I am interested in your thoughts on this.

OK JAMES, HERE IS MY DETAILED RESPONSE TO THE ARTICLE YOU POSTED:

In heated exchanges, my sister tried to convince me that Islam and feminism are not incompatible. "It is true," she said, "that Islam places restrictions on women's behaviour. Look at the way women are treated as sex objects in the West. Wearing a headscarf, I am respected as a Muslim woman, and no man would dare whistle at me in the street, or touch me up, or any of those things that used to happen before I adopted Muslim dress."

So far, everything this sister said is absolutely true, I have no problem with it.

Most importantly, it is simply not true that Islam fails to treat women as sex objects. In fact, women are so sexualised within Islamic society that it is assumed that any private encounter between a woman and a man will be sexual. Women are thus assumed to have two functions, and these are sex and child-bearing.

Who said we muslims consider any private encounter will be sexual ?? we dont prefer private encounter where man and woman stay alone in private home because the prophet muhammad(pbuh) said: WHEN MAN AND WOMAN STAY TOGETHER ALONE IN PRIVATE ROOM, THEY ARE NOT ALONE FOR THE SATAN IS WITH THEM .

so to PREVENT any wrong doing( ie: adultery ) we dont prefer such private encounter, staying together in public place or in work is NOT a problem at all.

By submitting to the adoption of an outward sign of modesty, the headscarf, chador or burqa, women allow men to divide and conquer.

outward sign of modesty according to who ?? to this WESTERN so called Dr ?? SELF-RIGHTOUS WESTERN ATTITUDE AGAIN !

And what an IMPERIAL LOGO such as divide and conquer has anything to do with modesty ?????

Women are either "good" - which is to say obedient - or they are "bad". Bad women are sluts, who are despised and assumed to be generally available.

You see, she is making the same GENERAL statements from her own mind, who said Muslims only desrcibe women as good if they were ONLY obedient ?
this is PATHETIC...who appointed this so called Dr to speak on behlaf of muslim men ?? and if there were some BACKWARD MUSLIM MEN who really believe so, does that mean all muslim men believe so ???

... In fact, by wearing the headscarf, chador or burqa, women allow themselves to be reduced to objects, each equivalent to the other.

And who the hell she is to make such judgment ?? for example this WHITE EUROPEAN MUSLIM-CONVERT DISAGREE WITH HER:

European Union temporary agent for research Candice Vancraenenbroek pauses before speaking during an International Women's Day Conference at the EU Charlemagne building in Brussels, Friday, March 8, 2002. Vancraenenbroek, born into a Belgian Catholic family, converted to Islam at an early age and has co-founded a group to help those women who also wish to convert. (AP Photo/Virginia Mayo)

http://www.islamfortoday.com/converts.htm#COTW

A practical consequence of the way women are sexualised in Islamic society is a tendency towards separatism. Women live in a women's sphere within the home; men interact with men in the public arena.

I think this women, the writer of this article, thinks all muslim women lives like the BACKWARD TALIBAN THUGS !!

Women know little of what men are saying in their all-male company, and are kept busy in the home producing babies and dinner. This makes it almost impossible for women to influence men's ideas.

She does not know that the REAL decision makers in most of muslim houses are WOMEN...poor my dad, he could not even voice his oppossion to what my mum had already decided !!!

A society in which men and women have an equal say cannot be a separatist society in which elaborate restrictions prevent the sexes from talking freely to each other.

AGAIN, this woman gets her views about the muslim world from FOX JEWS and the CNN...I went to the university in Aleppo-Syria with so many girls, we used to talk, laugh, have launches together....etc

I think you guys better go and have some REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE in the Muslim world....stop believing the CRAP you see on your biased media.

... But Islamic women are placed in an awkward position. Since feminism has developed in the West, it is very easy for Muslim men to accuse those women who want the freedoms that Western women enjoy, of being bad Muslims. Muslim women need to call their bluff.

So since you admit that feminism was born in the west, then KEEP IT THERE, thank you we dont want it.

Islam gave women rights 1400 years ago before you even dreamt of voting in election.....Finland was the first European country to grant women the rights to vote in 1906 1300 years after ISLAM....isn't that INCREDIBLE ???

TO BE CONTINUED------------->

 

[Proud_Muslim]

TO BE CONTINUED------------->

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)was one of the world's first feminists and Islam is in itself a feminist's religion. prophet Muhammad(pbuh) banned female infanticide, deeming it a sin in Islam. It was a bold move for his time, as pre-Islamic patriarchal culture that existed for centuries prompted parents to bury their female offspring, seen as useless in comparison to a son who could provide for the family. prophet Muhammad (pbuh ) even said that any man who raises, provides for, and educates two daughters has a spot reserved for him in Heaven. In addition, Prophet Muhammad's wife, Khadijah, played an important role in Islam.... Furthermore, what we have learned about prophet Muhammad (pbuh ), the major proponent of Islam, is from the women in his life, his wives and daughters—who later became leaders of the faith and important sources of information on his life. Can you see now how easy it is for a Muslim woman to be a feminist ? Islam, from its inception, has always been about elevating the status of women, even before such a notion was a Western ideal.

If Muslim men really have the interests of women at heart, and if Muslim women are recognised as men's spiritual equals within Islam, one would expect to see Muslim women publicly expressing their views about their interests,

And can you tell me who is THE PRESIDENT OF THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, INDONESIA ??????? YES, IT IS MUSLIM WOMNA, PRESIDENT MEGAWATI.

And can you tell me who is the PRIME MINISTER of Bangladesh ?? YES, ANOTHER MUSLIM WOMAN: KHALEDA ZIA

http://www.bangladeshgov.org/pmo/

And can you tell me who is the LEADER OF THE OPPOSION PART IN THIS MUSLIM STATE, BANGLADESH ?? YES, ANOTHER MUSLIM WOMAN: Sheikha Hasina Wajed.

http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/bm/Qbangladesh-politics.Res0_DSF.html

preaching in the mosques, sitting on the council of imams, and arguing in public with their menfolk over the structure of the good society and over the interpretation of Islam.

ARE YOU BLIND ? how about these women in the IRANIAN PARLIAMENT PROTESTING MULLAHS BACKWARD LAWS ??

Iranian pro-reform lawmaker Elaheh Koulaei holds her number to get permission to speak in the parliament in Tehran.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1122205,00.html

But, with a couple of notable exceptions, Muslim women remain almost invisible and largely unheard. I suspect this will only change when they throw off the bugbear of sexual modesty, which is used to such pernicious effect on their liberty.

Oh I see, so development and prosperity cant be achieved if you are modest, you have to be dressing very SEXY in order to develop !! PATHETIC.

This brings me to the last, and perhaps most controversial of my personal reflections on Islam and feminism.

Did you read the word PERSONAL in the above line ????

Muslim women claim to wear the headscarf, or other more voluminous covering, out of modesty. I suspect that, in fact, the veil is attractive to women because it subtly appeals to their vanity. Islam tells women that, no matter how plain, old or ill-favoured she is, the sight of her uncovered hair will be so stimulating that any man who sees it will lose control of his passions.

This is PURE BLATANT BS, old muslim women are NOT required even to put the headscarf, so where she is getting this CRAP from ???

Thus, beneath her modest covering, a Muslim woman can imagine herself the most desirable creature possible. Women who operate freely in society, conversing with men on a daily basis, are, in the end, forced to form a just assessment of their desirability.

I see, that is why most rapes happen in NON MUSLIM societies !! could be that those women are failing in making just assessment of their desirability? or is it again ALL the fault of men ???

Unless she is particularly young and pretty, a woman will be made well aware of most men's indifference to her charms.

Young and pretty is what you guys in the west take as STANDARDS for women acceptability, after her beauty expire, you throw her in eldery homes...shame on you.

In islam we dont look at beauty and youth as the only determind factors that shapes men perceptions, I dont give a flying monkey about beautiful woman if she was not intelligent...

She will find, in the long run, that likeable men will like her as much for her character, skills and wit, as for her beauty. It is when woman's sexuality is not shrouded that it ceases to be an object of mystery and passion to men, and women have the greatest chance of being treated as more than sexual objects.

How pathetic to see western woman speaking about Sexual objects ? who treats his women as sexual objects, us muslims or you guys ?? how about your commercials ??? who promote your products ?? who do you feature in your TV ads?? how about BAMBI HUNTING ???? give me a FREAKING BREAK.

How about these as an example ?

But in order for women to operate as equals in the public sphere, it has to be assumed that the bulk of interactions between men and women are non-sexual.

and why it has to be sexual anyway ???????

Muslim women are wrong if they think that the headscarf prevents them from being treated as sex objects. In fact it confirms that that is their social status.

it is your opinion, so you better keep it to yourself because the muslim women who wears the hijab disagree with you:

http://www.islam101.com/women/hijbene.html

Opressed? Nah, Just Well Dressed

http://www.thehoya.com/viewpoint/102098/view2.htm

 

[everneo]

Thanks for the bikini pictures.