Feeding another meat

[swarm]

Asguard
We are capable (though it takes alot of planning) of having a compleatly animal product free (vegan) diet. A cat is not, they MUST eat meat.

Its not about the cat.

We are capable of living completely cat free. Having a cat is a choice and that choice, as you point out, requires the slaughter of other animals for food.

By vegan standards it is immoral and arguing it is "less" immoral doesn't make the animals killed less dead.

 

[CutsieMarie89]

highly doubtful to the meat, NO to the fruit. In fact you would die if you ate nothing but fruit.

The meat might make you obease and kill you in the longer term but iron deficancies would kill you quicker (not to mention the lack of amino and neculaic acids would mean protines couldnt be produced and cells couldnt devide)

There aren't any amino acids in meat? Where do they come from? I think humans could live off of practically anything that our bodies can turn into energy. Meat must be pretty good for the body if your body uses it to keep you alive when food is scarce and your fat reserves run out. I learned that from personal experience, I don't recommend it. It doesn't feel very good when your body is consuming itself to keep itself running.

 

[Asguard]

so its keeping pets your really arguing is immoral?

possably but its definitly not something i subscribe to, of course im not a vegan either and i dont belive eating meat is immoral at all.

I do belive that metakrons aitude is immoral though, just because you are going to eat something (for your own survival) doesnt give you the right to torture it as well. They are seprate issues compleatly

 

[Asguard]

sorry cutsie, i worded that quite badly

I ment to say that obseady (from eating only meat) wouldnt kill as fast as the lack of iron, ameno acids and nucleic acids you wouldnt be reciving by only eating fruit

 

[swarm]

James R
Does it excuse you if you can show that some people are more moral than you, but still immoral nonetheless?

I don't find eating meat a moral issue so your question is meaningless to me.

What I do find a moral issue is you accusing others of immorality for something you practice yourself, participating in the meat industry and using meat as a food product. I'm particularly unimpressed by the lame excuses you offer trying to make it seem like you are doing a "service" like some kind of meta carrion eater picking the bones clean.

Its hypocrisy pure and simple.

I happen to think its just fine if you don't like meat that you don't eat it and if you like having a cat that you take care of it. Also there is certainly plenty to critique about how the meat industry is run. In particular there is a lot colon cancer coming down the pike thanks to the "enhanced" with up to 15% nitrite water that they are cheating on the meat prices with.

But James you don't have the moral high ground here. Arguing that meat is immoral when its not so immmoral that you eschew it is at best very unpersuasive and at worst very hypocritical. It makes you seem like a closed minded fanatical vegan who should be blown off or taunted.

If you don't care how you come across carry on.

If you do care I would strongly suggest working the reducing harm angles and admit that reasonable meat consumption is not some huge moral failing.

Or choose your convictions over your cat.

 

[MetaKron]

The same person will tell people that it is moral for cats to eat meat because it's natural and they are natural predators, then turn around and tell you that you can't construct morality from nature's models. That's what duct tape is for.

 

[James R]

I don't find eating meat a moral issue so your question is meaningless to me.

Why did you start a thread on this in the "Ethics, Morality and Justice" forum, then?

What I do find a moral issue is you accusing others of immorality for something you practice yourself, participating in the meat industry and using meat as a food product.

But it doesn't matter to you what I do with food, since food is not a moral issue for you.

I'm particularly unimpressed by the lame excuses you offer trying to make it seem like you are doing a "service" like some kind of meta carrion eater picking the bones clean.

Its hypocrisy pure and simple.

What would you have me do, regarding my cat?

I happen to think its just fine if you don't like meat that you don't eat it...

If meat eating is a moral issue, the question of whether you like eating it or not is irrelevant. I know many vegetarians who like the taste of meat, but who do not eat it for moral reasons.

Also there is certainly plenty to critique about how the meat industry is run.

There's little to debate on that question. I agree.

Arguing that meat is immoral when its not so immmoral that you eschew it is at best very unpersuasive and at worst very hypocritical. It makes you seem like a closed minded fanatical vegan who should be blown off or taunted.

You're making assumptions about me, but never mind that.

Suppose that, in fact, you are correct and I am the world's biggest hypocrite, in that I feed meat to my cat, or even eat it myself, all the while preaching to you about how immoral it is.

Does that affect the validity of the moral arguments against eating meat in any way? Answer: no, it doesn't. They stand or fall on their merit, and not on the hypocrisy or lack thereof of the people who put them.

If you do care I would strongly suggest working the reducing harm angles and admit that reasonable meat consumption is not some huge moral failing.

You do not consider it a moral issue at all, so you claim. So, accusations that you are immoral should be water off a duck's back when it comes to this issue.

And yet, strangely, you seem very worried about being considered immoral. And by a hypocrite as well.

Hmmm.... :shrug:

 

[James R]

The same person will tell people that it is moral for cats to eat meat because it's natural and they are natural predators, then turn around and tell you that you can't construct morality from nature's models.

I have never argued such a thing, so this is irrelevant nonsense.

 

[swarm]

CutsieMarie89
Would a person be healthier eating solely meat or solely fruits?

A person is healthiest eating a mainly fruit and vegetable diet supplimented with small servings of grains, legumes, tubers and lean meats. We are omnivors and a solely vegitarian diet or solely meat diet is not healthy without jumping through hoops. Vegitables lack some essencial vitamins and amino acids, too much meat is too heavy in fats, protiens and bad fiber. Also you have to eat the whole animal, in particular the liver, if you want to get all the necessary vitamins and what not.

But eating a mainly fruit and vegetable diet supplimented with small servings of grains, legumes, tubers and lean meats fits our metabolism like a glove.

 

[Asguard]

swarm
liver is DELICIOUS
but my partner refuses to eat it so i dont get to make it often

 

[swarm]

Asguard
so its keeping pets your really arguing is immoral?

I’m arguing for ethical consistency. I’m saying there is no essential difference between eating meat yourself and feeding it to your cat. So someone who argues that the meat consumption of others is immoral while the feeds his cat meat is guilty of hypocrisy. Either they need to drop the condemnation of others for meat use or they need to dump the cat or they need to admit meat use in and of itself is not immoral and it is actually causing harm through meat use that is the problem.

I do belive that metakrons aitude is immoral though, just because you are going to eat something (for your own survival) doesnt give you the right to torture it as well. They are seprate issues completely

I can’t find where he said that here. I do agree that predation doesn’t justify needless cruelty.

liver is DELICIOUS

Tastes like sawdust to me. I reather get my vitamins from other sources.

 

[James R]

So someone who argues that the meat consumption of others is immoral while the feeds his cat meat is guilty of hypocrisy.

Which should I do?

1. Kill my cat, so I no longer have to feed it.
2. Give it away to somebody else, so I'm not the immoral one.
3. Feed it a diet that will cause it to die?
4. Other (please specify).

 

[swarm]

swarm
I don't find eating meat a moral issue so your question is meaningless to me.

James R
Why did you start a thread on this in the "Ethics, Morality and Justice" forum, then?

Because I am discussing ethical questions.

But it doesn't matter to you what I do with food, since food is not a moral issue for you.

It is not what you do with food that bothers me. It is what you do with people.

What would you have me do, regarding my cat?

I’ve said several times it is not about your cat and that I’ve no problem with you taking good care of it.

If meat eating is a moral issue, the question of whether you like eating it or not is irrelevant. I know many vegetarians who like the taste of meat, but who do not eat it for moral reasons.

Eating meat is not a moral issue so the question of whether or not you like it is personally quite relevant. But if they derive personal satisfaction not eating it even though they like it, that’s fine too.

Suppose that, in fact, you are correct and I am the world's biggest hypocrite, in that I feed meat to my cat, or even eat it myself, all the while preaching to you about how immoral it is.

Does that affect the validity of the moral arguments against eating meat in any way? Answer: no, it doesn't. They stand or fall on their merit, and not on the hypocrisy or lack thereof of the people who put them.

You are assuming an absolute morality against which the quality of your statements can be measure and agreed upon. Unfortunately that is not the case. There is obviously not agreeable standard here. You claims have only your personal integrity to back them. If you are saying “do as I say and not as I do” your arguments are at best unimpressive. You cannot make the claim of a moral insight that you refuse to adhere to yourself.

You do not consider it a moral issue at all, so you claim. So, accusations that you are immoral should be water off a duck's back when it comes to this issue.

What makes you think I’m the least concerned about that issue? Do you really think I’m discussing the morality of meat consumption here?

I suggest rereading if that is the case because you’ve missed the thrust of my discussion completely.

You seem concerned with being a moral person so how can you be satisfied with doing something you are clearly declaring immoral?

 

[James R]

swarm:

Eating meat is not a moral issue ...

Since it involves the deliberate killing of sentient creatures, it seems that prima facie, it is a moral issue. We must ask: is it morally permissible to kill a cow and eat it?

How could it not be a moral issue? You are taking a life by choice. How is it that this choice has no moral implications?

Please explain.

You cannot make the claim of a moral insight that you refuse to adhere to yourself.

Suppose I regard Jesus Christ as my moral role model. Can I not claim his moral insights to be good and worthy, even if I personally can never hope to reach his standard of moral goodness?

Don't people do this kind of thing all the time?

Is everybody a hypocrite, according to you?

 

[swarm]

Which should I do?

4. Other (please specify).

Admit that you do not actually consider meat consumption in and of itself immoral since it is obvious that is in fact the case.

 

[swarm]

Since it involves the deliberate killing of sentient creatures, it seems that prima facie, it is a moral issue. We must ask: is it morally permissible to kill a cow and eat it?

Yes it is morally permissible to kill and eat a cow when done in the natural course of the predator/prey relationship. Further it is morally irresponsible to occupy the top predator spot in the food chain and refuse to kill and eat prey animals since it is harmful to both the prey animals and the environment. If we as a species decide to abdicate our role as top predator it will be necessary to reintroduce other predators to take our place killing prey animals.

How could it not be a moral issue? You are taking a life by choice. How is it that this choice has no moral implications?

That is how life has designed itself. It only becomes immoral if it is done cruelly or in a manner that causes unnecessary harm to such things as the environment.

You cannot make the claim of a moral insight that you refuse to adhere to yourself. ”

Suppose I regard Jesus Christ as my moral role model. Can I not claim his moral insights to be good and worthy, even if I personally can never hope to reach his standard of moral goodness?

No you cannot claim to know his claims are in fact morally sound if you cannot follow them yourself. You can only admit you are parroting them unverified. If you then go on to condemn others for not following them when you yourself cannot follow them, you would be a hypocrite.

Don't people do this kind of thing all the time?

Not moral people. And when one falls into bad habits, the moral thing would be to take appropriate corrective action.

 

[MetaKron]

When a human kills a cow to eat it, this is in the natural course of the predator/prey relationship.

 

[Orleander]

Is it immoral for me to eat meat but raise my children from infancy to be vegetarians?

 

[spidergoat]

Cats can eat meat byproducts cast off by our meat industry, so you don't really have to kill any additional animals to feed them. If they were wild, they would kill, and I guess you can't euthanize the cat to prevent this either, because that's killing. They are carnivores, unlike dogs. They have really short digestive systems that need a high protein diet.

 

[James R]

swarm:

You have fallen into a simple logical trap.

[enc]Appeal to nature[/enc]