faster than light?
- Thread starter Greco
- Start date
Why must God be Distinct from the universe...
Well....
How do you cover all the distance involved if subject to "relativistic" speed limits?
How else would you live long enough to see it work?
A poor jest, perhaps.
Nonetheless...
It merely seems implied to me that, once again to use somewhat crude terminology, to build on the scale of the universe, it just couldn't be the work of merely some other "mundane" resident of it.
At one point in the history of the universe, the laws of physics we know did not apply to the conditions occuring therein. What we refer to as "matter" and "energy" did not even exist.
My presumption was that an entity which could conceive of all that exists, let alone set the process of realizing it in motion, could hardly have done so while constrained by the "operating parameters" of that conception.
To plan in advance so much as the fact that there will eventually be a universe where formerly there was nothing seems to suggest an existance apart from that which is to be brought into being
Even if God were a merely a component process of the universe, he/she/it/they could be considered in violation physical law merely by virtue of longevity...
Also, the creation of the "Angelic Hosts" suggests God was already in the business of crafting realities heaven only knows how long before he got desperate and tried us out...
Finally, if it seems as though I'm making a skewed or incomplete argument, I guessI assumed that the Catholic "Power Rating" of God was the "Divine Standard".
The descriptions of deific action driven into my young noggin could allow me to form but one conclusion...
blingbling
(li'l one 'is time, O' you be hatin'!)God da MAN!!
wrong, if god is omniscient he already knows.
what then is good or evil? and please don't say a strong faith as there are many, many christians who are very bad all the time. also, does what you're saying make humans one big social experiment, and those he is not pleasedwith he sends to hell?
i tend to disagree, we are small planet of self involved people who think far too much of themselves to believe that we have the personal time of god on our hands. the universe seems like a much more interesting place.
I've been sort of using the "all knowledgeable" definition
of omniscient. I take that to mean that God knows
everything that happended in the past and the present.
If your definition includes the future, then I believe that
omniscient is just the invention of Greek philosophers
and is meaningless.
Christians who are bad all the time do not have Jesus within
them. God is only good and so all knowledge of
what is good comes from God within. God does not
send us to hell, those who go to hell choose to and
God is only fullfilling their desire.
fine, but omniscient means "knows everything" and most church doctrines hold that that is a part of their god.
god obviously doesn't know everything if he thinks people desire to go to hell. god also created the universe (religious stream of thought) so that means he must have also created the bad in it- this is true as he has knowledge of bad (omniscient). so it would be sensable to assume god is not only good (considering all the smighting he did in the bible as well). so where do i get my good from? if jesus is not within me how am i good?
PS i don't want to heaven nor do i want to go to hell, both would be unbearable punishments that i would not want to experience.
Originally posted by atheroy
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.Orignally posted by okinrus
It's the souls of man that is interesting because he does not know which ones will choose good or evil.
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wrong, if god is omniscient he already knows.
Ahhh... But no!
This is the concept of free will at work!
For once, God does not know...
This is the very reason that it exists.
Utterly subservient creations were already tried out and...
Hmmm... would saying that they proved to be boring be sinful?
When they were given the power of choice... Well you know how you always think you could do your bosses job better?
Humanity is the next go 'round...
Now that a potential revolution has been eliminated from the equation by removing the "immortality" factor , whether or not God's creations can "see the light" might be determined once and for all. (I guess)
Free will remains key, however, because one must not be coerced into "behaving". That was done with the Seraphim, Cherubim, or whatever... They did not have the option of choice.
quote:
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but once we choose either good or evil God knows the answer instantly.
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what then is good or evil? and please don't say a strong faith as there are many, many christians who are very bad all the time. also, does what you're saying make humans one big social experiment, and those he is not pleasedwith he sends to hell?
There are ten simple rules in a book I'm certain is within easy reach...
As for the "evil" christians... They're not.
They can claim to be whatever they wish, (but lying violates rule 9.)
I was raised in the dubious Roman Catholic tradition, and only years later did I recognize the very manner of people you describe as those who had comprised most of the Parish I lived in. People who thought devotion consisted of showing up at a building for a half-hour a week and not dozing off while the "priest" conducted the only meaningful portion of the "service".
Ignore the Church.
Matthew6:5 : (to paraphrase) "Stay outta church"
As for the "social experiment"...
I envision God as trying to discover something...
What label to give it I don't know.
I hypothesize that it might be encapsulated in the question: "Why?"
quote:
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Billions of light years and planets are nothing compared to human life.
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i tend to disagree, we are small planet of self involved people who think far too much of themselves to believe that we have the personal time of god on our hands. the universe seems like a much more interesting place.
I refer you to a thread in General Philosophy entitled "Refutation of Nihilism", in which an excellent argument (not mine, BTW) postulates that the very cellestial glories of which you speak are, in fact, mere meaningless coincidental phenomena without some manner of intellect to - as you yourself say - find it interesting...
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.Orignally posted by okinrus
It's the souls of man that is interesting because he does not know which ones will choose good or evil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrong, if god is omniscient he already knows.
Ahhh... But no!
This is the concept of free will at work!
For once, God does not know...
This is the very reason that it exists.
Utterly subservient creations were already tried out and...
Hmmm... would saying that they proved to be boring be sinful?
When they were given the power of choice... Well you know how you always think you could do your bosses job better?
Humanity is the next go 'round...
Now that a potential revolution has been eliminated from the equation by removing the "immortality" factor , whether or not God's creations can "see the light" might be determined once and for all. (I guess)
Free will remains key, however, because one must not be coerced into "behaving". That was done with the Seraphim, Cherubim, or whatever... They did not have the option of choice.
quote:
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but once we choose either good or evil God knows the answer instantly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what then is good or evil? and please don't say a strong faith as there are many, many christians who are very bad all the time. also, does what you're saying make humans one big social experiment, and those he is not pleasedwith he sends to hell?
There are ten simple rules in a book I'm certain is within easy reach...
As for the "evil" christians... They're not.
They can claim to be whatever they wish, (but lying violates rule 9.)
I was raised in the dubious Roman Catholic tradition, and only years later did I recognize the very manner of people you describe as those who had comprised most of the Parish I lived in. People who thought devotion consisted of showing up at a building for a half-hour a week and not dozing off while the "priest" conducted the only meaningful portion of the "service".
Ignore the Church.
Matthew6:5 : (to paraphrase) "Stay outta church"
As for the "social experiment"...
I envision God as trying to discover something...
What label to give it I don't know.
I hypothesize that it might be encapsulated in the question: "Why?"
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billions of light years and planets are nothing compared to human life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i tend to disagree, we are small planet of self involved people who think far too much of themselves to believe that we have the personal time of god on our hands. the universe seems like a much more interesting place.
I refer you to a thread in General Philosophy entitled "Refutation of Nihilism", in which an excellent argument (not mine, BTW) postulates that the very cellestial glories of which you speak are, in fact, mere meaningless coincidental phenomena without some manner of intellect to - as you yourself say - find it interesting...
Master of Illusion
Registered Senior Member
You seem to like repeating nonsense okinrus. Most atheists, like any other people are good. It's only a few people (whether Christian, Muslim, atheist whatever) that are not "good" so to speak that cause problems for society.
Also I do not choose to go to hell.
Tell me okinrus, do you choose to go to Muslim Hell? Allah would only be fulfilling your desire.
Muslim hell does not make sense: "Stay away from sexual misconduct here one earth so that you can do all you want in heaven." You are also assuming that I said you and all other atheist are going to hell. I only said those who go to hell will go on their own choosing. In fact I would be making my self out to be god if I did. Oh by the way, choosing to not go to heaven means repeatively choosing to do good
They did have a choice. Those who chose to be apart
from God became demons.
Master of Illusion
Registered Senior Member
And Christian hell does make sense?
Like I said before, no one chooses hell.
mm, I though it was by belief in Jesus only.Oh by the way, choosing to not go to heaven means repeatively choosing to do good
Hell about hell.
The fundermental question here is "what if anything is hell". The common conception is that it is a place where you go if you do "bad" things. It isinteresting to look at the varrious traditions ideas of "bad".
Amongst them you will find a lot of agreement, too much sex, murder, theiving, these will get you banged up in the sulphur pits for sure!
But lets not be abstract, anyone with enough experience of life will tell you that these things will make you miserable on earth, let alone in the afterlife!
The great tragerdy in life is not that we do bad things, but what wonders we miss whilst were doing them!
The fundermental question here is "what if anything is hell". The common conception is that it is a place where you go if you do "bad" things. It isinteresting to look at the varrious traditions ideas of "bad".
Amongst them you will find a lot of agreement, too much sex, murder, theiving, these will get you banged up in the sulphur pits for sure!
But lets not be abstract, anyone with enough experience of life will tell you that these things will make you miserable on earth, let alone in the afterlife!
The great tragerdy in life is not that we do bad things, but what wonders we miss whilst were doing them!
An interesting fact about the theory of relativity is as a traveler approaches the speed of light, time slows down for him,when he reaches the speed of light, time stops, when he exceeds the speed of light time reverses.
No matter how speedy the information reaching God it has to have a timely manner of getting to him. IT CANNOT be instateneous. The information has to be spaced in time to provide a sence of sequence. Every bit of information has to be time stamped other wise all information becomes jibberish. God must be able to process gazzilion bits of information and respond appropriately. He cannot be outside or excempted from our physical reality because in doing so he becomes totaly incoprehensible and therefore not worth talking about.
No matter how speedy the information reaching God it has to have a timely manner of getting to him. IT CANNOT be instateneous. The information has to be spaced in time to provide a sence of sequence. Every bit of information has to be time stamped other wise all information becomes jibberish. God must be able to process gazzilion bits of information and respond appropriately. He cannot be outside or excempted from our physical reality because in doing so he becomes totaly incoprehensible and therefore not worth talking about.
Hello there!
I think you are making a few assumptions about 'GOD'.
You mention, and quite rightly so , the problems that would arise in an instantaneous universe, however they are problems that 'we humans would face if instantaneousnes were possible.
The questions i see from your post are these.
Does god need time?
Does god need information?
does god need to be able to understand anything?
I propose that the god entity sees these things as trivial monkey business!!!
I do not see why it should follow that Gods existance is dependant on our understanding of the God entity, or our interest in talking about that entity.
Rainsmith
I think you are making a few assumptions about 'GOD'.
You mention, and quite rightly so , the problems that would arise in an instantaneous universe, however they are problems that 'we humans would face if instantaneousnes were possible.
The questions i see from your post are these.
Does god need time?
Does god need information?
does god need to be able to understand anything?
I propose that the god entity sees these things as trivial monkey business!!!
I do not see why it should follow that Gods existance is dependant on our understanding of the God entity, or our interest in talking about that entity.
Rainsmith
Siddhartha
Registered Senior Member
In order to observe me, god would have to be within this universe, which requires he obey the laws of this universe, and thus that he be limited. I swear, God is so easy to shoot down. It just surprises me that people assume God must exist in the first place. What makes people think "God must exist"?Originally posted by airavata
Hence the question comes up- how can God be and omnipresent? Maybe he exists outside the universe then. Maybe it's like how we watch a fish in a fish tank.... he watches us? That's scary.
quote......
"The question is does God need ANYTHING?
If He has no needs(perfect) than why create man?
if he has needs that makes him incomplete (imperfect).
God has to be somewhat understable by his creation or else how can he expect understanding?".............
When i say, God has no needs, it refers to Gods abilities, not desires.
God did not create man, man has always been a part of god, god simply expressed himself.
A need does not determine the perfection of things, that is the juristiction of "balance".
when you say , God must be understandable by his creation, i would argue that if God created us with that requirement, then we would have it, if God created us without it, then we wont', its up to God.
Does God expect understanding???? This assumes we are seperate from god. I don't think we are. Understand yourself and God undestands you!
ps.
Make not sence out of that which resolves the agony of seperation.Touch only upon the vine that swayeth in the gentle wind.
"The question is does God need ANYTHING?
If He has no needs(perfect) than why create man?
if he has needs that makes him incomplete (imperfect).
God has to be somewhat understable by his creation or else how can he expect understanding?".............
When i say, God has no needs, it refers to Gods abilities, not desires.
God did not create man, man has always been a part of god, god simply expressed himself.
A need does not determine the perfection of things, that is the juristiction of "balance".
when you say , God must be understandable by his creation, i would argue that if God created us with that requirement, then we would have it, if God created us without it, then we wont', its up to God.
Does God expect understanding???? This assumes we are seperate from god. I don't think we are. Understand yourself and God undestands you!
ps.
Make not sence out of that which resolves the agony of seperation.Touch only upon the vine that swayeth in the gentle wind.
Think of light as a sequnce of frames like a strip of film. This strip is moving at the speed of light. Now assume you get in a rocket that can exceed the speed of light and accelarate in the direction of the moving strip of light. At first looking back at the earth it would appear that things are slowing down. As you attain the speed of light you be travelling even with a frame of light, as long as you go at the same speed as the frame (or image) the image will remain unchaged. The earth would appear frozen in time.
Exceeding the speed of light you would be travelling faster than the strip of light and looking back at the earth it would appear like the earth is going backward.
Time for the traveller is still normal is the relativeness to the earth that would be affected.