Faith

[gOn]

Is it any good?
I wonder about faith in organized religions. Many times the believers put there faith in preachers and follow them no matter where they go. That's a dumb thing to do.

I have some Faith. But i only follow myself. F*** the Preachers.

 

[Lori_7]

Faith is trust. Trust can be good or bad, depending upon in what or in whom you place it, and to what degree.

 

[jayleew]

Is it any good?
I wonder about faith in organized religions. Many times the believers put there faith in preachers and follow them no matter where they go. That's a dumb thing to do.

I have some Faith. But i only follow myself. F*** the Preachers.

You make me proud. Faith is not found at church. It is found through a relationship with God and a relationship takes time alone together.

If you asked my church what they would do if the preacher left, most would tell you that they would leave the church and find another. Where is their faith placed?

Still, I do not speak ill of them because they have faith in a man that teaches the truth. They have a heart for God, but they need to be fed milk like a babe.

 

[the preacher]

but faith, regardless of which church or where, is the destroyer of the mind.
see here

 

[superluminal]

I hope you all can now easily see the very simple position that atheists take regarding religion, which is based on faith.

You talk about "time alone" with your god, and it being a personal experience. Words like that. I applaud that wholeheartedly. You see, don't you, that this kind of thinking and behavior has no place in the public world of men and women?

Let me explain. The methods of science present objective evidence and proof of natural phenomena. That's it. We use it to make things like gasoline, replacement heart valves, and video games. The outcome of science is a physical thing that is ultimately agreed to by all. How we use it is debatable, but that's not science. That's politics.

Religion is not objective. I know you agree with this. Therefore how can anyone present this in a public forum and expect any consensus? I offer the state of religion throughout history and the nearly infinite variations of each individuals perception of religion as self evident proof - res ipsa loquitur.

For myself, all I ask is that religion be kept completely out of public life. Government, schools, courthouses, you name it. Otherwise, all that can ever result is factious bickering over ideologies that can never be objectively reconciled.

scientia, ratiocinatio, pax

 

[MarcAC]

The objective (2) is intrinsically subjective (1+1).

 

[Joeman]

You make me proud. Faith is not found at church. It is found through a relationship with God and a relationship takes time alone together.

How do you exactly determine what God to put your faith in?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Faith is trust. Trust can be good or bad, depending upon in what or in whom you place it, and to what degree.

Correction, the trust component is unconditional.

 

[jayleew]

I hope you all can now easily see the very simple position that atheists take regarding religion, which is based on faith.

Yes, I understand. I would also agree with you that religion should not be taught in schools, but at the same token, it should not be banned. Teachers should be able to speak their mind and have an opinion as long as they do not present it as fact.

Another point I am saying is that evolution should be taught in schools only as a working theory to the creation of life, not as fact. Kids should be able to make up their own minds because the theories of evolution resulting in human life has not been proven and there are so many questions that still need to be answered. To say that natural selection is the cause of all life at this point in time is premature. For those that trust science, they don't need anything further, they trust that the answers are there and just have not been uncovered yet. I was once a believer in evolution, but when I started looking for answers to the missing pieces, they weren't there. And that crushed me that my biology teacher had not told me that the missing pieces weren't there. Keep searching scientists...

 

[jayleew]

How do you exactly determine what God to put your faith in?

I have answered this before, but I will say again:

Put your faith in the God who is the least illogical. There was a time when I thought that maybe all gods were the same God and that it was just the cultures that differed. Anyone who studies the beliefs of the religions will find that all of them are very screwy. The only one that makes sense and has the most evidence is Christianity and Judism.

For those that missed the other threads, the evidence is the chariot wheels in the Red Sea, the burned mountain top of Sinai, the dried up rock-spring, Elijah's cave, the bitter springs, the altars built on the foot of Sinai with Hebrew markings and of course the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[Joeman]

I have answered this before, but I will say again:
Put your faith in the God who is the least illogical.

In that case, if I forge a holy book that has perfect logical consistency, would you believe it?

For those that missed the other threads, the evidence is the chariot wheels in the Red Sea, the burned mountain top of Sinai, the dried up rock-spring, Elijah's cave, the bitter springs, the altars built on the foot of Sinai with Hebrew markings and of course the Dead Sea Scrolls.

But none of it matters. Jesus is not God. He is a liar and a lunatic. It's proven in this article.

http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second Coming stuff/matthew_24_verse_by_verse.htm

and this

http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second Coming stuff/Jesus_and_his_expired_prophecies.htm

 

[superluminal]

Jayleew,

Yes, I understand. I would also agree with you that religion should not be taught in schools, but at the same token, it should not be banned. Teachers should be able to speak their mind and have an opinion as long as they do not present it as fact.

No, teachers do not get to have an opinion with their (especially young) students. If you have not had young children who were told something by their teacher, that you tried to explain was "not quite right" then you have no idea of the power of a teachers words. Younger students have a nearly impossible time distinguishing fact from opinion offered by an authority figure.

Another point I am saying is that evolution should be taught in schools only as a working theory to the creation of life, not as fact. Kids should be able to make up their own minds because the theories of evolution resulting in human life has not been proven and there are so many questions that still need to be answered. To say that natural selection is the cause of all life at this point in time is premature. For those that trust science, they don't need anything further, they trust that the answers are there and just have not been uncovered yet. I was once a believer in evolution, but when I started looking for answers to the missing pieces, they weren't there. And that crushed me that my biology teacher had not told me that the missing pieces weren't there. Keep searching scientists...

You misunderstand evolution. Evolution is not about the creation of life. It's about how life adapts to changing environments. The origin of life is a subject of molecular chemistry.

Evolution by natural selection is a fact. There are observed instances of micro and macro evolution in the literature, and support from the fossil record and genetic analysis, etc. Minor details are debated. You didn't look seriously at evolution.

And you were crushed by the knowledge that an area of science was not complete? Wow. Welcome to science. We have no idea what the underlying mechanism of gravity is. Warped spacetime (what the hell is that?) Gravitons? Must be god.

 

[gOn]

but faith, regardless of which church or where, is the destroyer of the mind.
see here

I think faith is the maker of the mind. Our intellinge evolved to a state where imagination and predition was possible. Faith depends on that. But it also depends on reason. Some people look at nature and see that it has some purpose. Life evolved, for example, from simple things to complexe ones. This seems some sort of purpose. The Universe was once very simple and hot. And now it´s colder and much more organized. It's like there's a plan. These are facts. Some see these facts has the work of some intelligent mind. I myself see things this way. It's not blind faith. There are some reasons.

Like all things, faith can be perverted, Because we also have primitive reasons, like hierarchy, and other stuff that can be used by others to do very bad things. I think saying faith is the destroyer of the mind is bad reductionism. It reveals little understanding of the WHOLE human nature, and the complex interaction between people and there surroundings.

 

[superluminal]

Faith is the destroyer of minds.

 

[gOn]

Faith is the destroyer of minds.

Is that right? Go tell that to Newton, Galileu, Kepler, Francis Collins, Abdus Salam, Freeman Dyson, and many others...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

jayleew: I have answered this before, but I will say again:

Put your faith in the God who is the least illogical. There was a time when I thought that maybe all gods were the same God and that it was just the cultures that differed. Anyone who studies the beliefs of the religions will find that all of them are very screwy. The only one that makes sense and has the most evidence is Christianity and Judism.

For those that missed the other threads, the evidence is the chariot wheels in the Red Sea, the burned mountain top of Sinai, the dried up rock-spring, Elijah's cave, the bitter springs, the altars built on the foot of Sinai with Hebrew markings and of course the Dead Sea Scrolls.
*************
M*W: There is absolutely NO evidence of what you've said, and since you've repeated it, that makes you a pathological liar.

 

[geeser]

I think faith is the maker of the mind. Our intelligence evolved to a state where imagination and prediction was possible. Faith depends on that. But it also depends on reason.

faith is the absence of reason.

Like all things, faith can be perverted,

not so much perverted but perverse

I think saying faith is the destroyer of the mind is bad reductionism. It reveals little understanding of the WHOLE human nature, and the complex interaction between people and there surroundings.

ah but it does, it shows, how man will follow and idolise another to the point of death.
or if you like how a man will follow a fantasy to the same end.

 

[jayleew]

Jayleew,
No, teachers do not get to have an opinion with their (especially young) students. If you have not had young children who were told something by their teacher, that you tried to explain was "not quite right" then you have no idea of the power of a teachers words. Younger students have a nearly impossible time distinguishing fact from opinion offered by an authority figure.

I agree that young minds have a hard time distinguishing fact from opinion offered by an authority figure, I was one of them. I am not saying that teachers ought to teach anything other than what is outlined in the curriculum. I am saying that if Joey, in private, asks a teacher what the teacher's opinion is, that the teacher be given the right to express his or her opinion. Right now we have teachers shaking in their pants about talking about their beliefs in class.

You misunderstand evolution. Evolution is not about the creation of life. It's about how life adapts to changing environments. The origin of life is a subject of molecular chemistry.

I understand that life adapts to changing environments. That has empirical evidence.

Evolution by natural selection is a fact. There are observed instances of micro and macro evolution in the literature, and support from the fossil record and genetic analysis, etc. Minor details are debated. You didn't look seriously at evolution.

The fossil record has unearthed no intermediate species, but we should have a lot of them. If you have evidence of an intermediate species you would be rich.
As far as genetic analysis as cosmological evidence, there are studies that go both ways, its just that the end of natural selection's evidence is something physical. Obviously, science should not come to any other conclusion. If science ever proved the existence of God without observing God, it would cease to be science. But with science, it has evidence of natural selection, but has not observed it, so it is considered to be true. But is only a half-truth. Holes need to be filled before we can say that natural selection is the process for which all life has been created.

Just because the hypothesis is based on physical objects, we cannot assume that the evidence does in fact support it. But again, within the realm of science, if it is not there, it is not there.

And you were crushed by the knowledge that an area of science was not complete? Wow. Welcome to science. We have no idea what the underlying mechanism of gravity is. Warped spacetime (what the hell is that?) Gravitons? Must be god.

Obviously, science for the sake of science's precepts says that nothing is not unknowable. There in lies the problem. That line of thinking is good, but is always wrong. It is always wrong because the unknowable becomes the knowable. What was assumed to be the truth is refuted, as new evidence becomes available. The search for truth with science can never end. That is good, but if that rules your beliefs, you could be in trouble.

 

[jayleew]

In that case, if I forge a holy book that has perfect logical consistency, would you believe it?

No, because you are one man. That is just one of the many problems with many other religions. Who can trust just one man? The Bible has many authors who tell the same story, giving it weight. The more times someone agrees to something (even a lie), the better the odds that it is true. With that logic alone, many more religions can be eliminated because they are not old enough.

But none of it matters. Jesus is not God. He is a liar and a lunatic. It's proven in this article.

I will assimilate your proposed proof...

 

[Lori_7]

Correction, the trust component is unconditional.

Not with me, it's not. People earn their trust with me. Well, some do, and some don't, and most to some degree or another, but not completely or unconditionally (except God because he has proven to me that He is who He says He is). Certainly that's how it is with you too, right? Did I misunderstand you or?