Faith in God....What it really means

[PsychoticEpisode]

...... is faith in the existence of God. I think any theist before becoming immersed in their chosen religion has to first establish a bonafide faith in God's existence.

So my question is, why does God prefer this method? Surely, to know proof positive that He exists would eliminate faith altogether. One can only assume that God, if He exists, is ambiguous to a fault. It must be very frustrating for a theist to have to resort to a belief that can't be corroborated. Some inventiveness is going to be required.

The simplest theistic argument is that this is the way God wants it. Faith is more important than knowing. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you don't know anything about something then you can't establish truths. If God does not want to prove Himself to us then even speculation is moot although the only conclusion a theist can reach is that God wants us to try. God wants us to speculate about Him even though it's pointless to do so.... a corollary to the simple theistic argument.... He likes it that way. So back to my original question, why? I suspect any answer would have to contain more inventiveness because that question can't be answered truthfully.

Personally I can't get my mind around faith in a god. There is absolutely no reason for me to even speculate about the existence of one let alone base my life on it. There is no doubt in my mind at least that theism runs counter to what evolution has endowed us with, intelligence. I do not think that because we are fortunate to be equipped with a self awareness mechanism, or a consciousness, that it automatically means it was divinely inspired or that a deity must exist just because we think it.

Perhaps faith has other meanings. Please share.

 

[Lori_7]

My faith is trust in something I know.

How many times do you plan to reiterate that you don't understand this simple concept?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

My faith is trust in something I know.

How many times do you plan to reiterate that you don't understand this simple concept?

Let me answer that LG style(he's wearing on me)... How many times does someone have to say to you that they love you before you believe it? There's no set answer to the number but at least there's an answer.

Ya, but Lori you're a different kettle of fish in that you claim to know. I wasn't directing it at you but thanks for replying.

 

[Lori_7]

Why do you keep arguing the scapegoat? Because its easy? Its also boring.

No offense.

 

[(Q)]

My faith is trust in something I know.

How many times do you plan to reiterate that you don't understand this simple concept?

Lori, your insanity is not a simple concept, nor is quite the same as the faith in which the OP refers.

 

[(Q)]

Why do you keep arguing the scapegoat? Because its easy? Its also boring.

No offense.

Whereas, on the other hand, your insanity is very boring and very offensive at the same time.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Why do you keep arguing the scapegoat? Because its easy? Its also boring.

No offense.

None taken. Not sure what you mean by arguing the scapegoat. Who is the scapegoat and for what?

 

[Hapsburg]

...... is faith in the existence of God. I think any theist before becoming immersed in their chosen religion has to first establish a bonafide faith in God's existence.

So my question is, why does God prefer this method? Surely, to know proof positive that He exists would eliminate faith altogether.

For my gods, I have come to a logical conclusion: they exist outside of the physical universe and can affect the physical universe only through the proper channels, i.e. nature and physics. The gods acting upon the universe would be indistinguishable from random acts of nature or physics.

However, they can come to and communicate with individuals who are in dreamlike states, trances, or other forms of ritual consciousness. This forms unverifiable personal gnosis, which straddles the line between faith and proof.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

However, they can come to and communicate with individuals who are in dreamlike states, trances, or other forms of ritual consciousness. This forms unverifiable personal gnosis, which straddles the line between faith and proof.

Let's pass the acid. Is your comment an endorsement for hallucinatory drugs? Dreamlike states, trances or other bouts of aberrant consciousness behavior are the brain's doing, it is a sign that you're not all altogether mentally. It could be as simple as being tired.

Searching for the truth when all you have to deal with is myth or your own personal fabrications is hardly anywhere near real proof. It does not straddle the line as you say....can you give me an example where proof and faith are so tantalizingly close through your personal gnosis?

 

[Rav]

It's not about faith in the Existence of God. It's about faith in God. No serious Christian for example really doubts that God exists. They know he does. Trusting in him, believing he can make a difference in your life or in the lives of others, that's where faith comes into it.

Most Christians would also argue that on some level, everybody knows that God exists. It's obvious to us all, but some of us don't want to believe so we bury the knowledge and build something else on top of it. This is a highly controversial topic that I'll leave for the interested parties to debate

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

It's not about faith in the Existence of God. It's about faith in God. No serious Christian for example really doubts that God exists. They know he does. Trusting in him, believing he can make a difference in your life or in the lives of others, that's where faith comes into it.

Obvious question: how do you know?

If faith is trust in God, who is positively known to you, then there is no reason to have faith in God's existence. I think this is also Lori's stance.

I didn't say people have doubts in God's existence, only because of their faith.

 

[spidergoat]

Lori, are you suggesting that all believers have had the equivalent experience to you? I would guess not. It seems immoral to me that a benevolent God would hide himself from open minded people. He also never seems to appear when his creation is genuinely suffering. A 9 year old girl was stoned to death for being raped in Africa, and this was done in His name. If this is the way he wanted it, then he isn't good (or He doesn't exist).

 

[Lori_7]

Lori, are you suggesting that all believers have had the equivalent experience to you? I would guess not. It seems immoral to me that a benevolent God would hide himself from open minded people. He also never seems to appear when his creation is genuinely suffering. A 9 year old girl was stoned to death for being raped in Africa, and this was done in His name. If this is the way he wanted it, then he isn't good (or He doesn't exist).

Most religious people don't know god, nor do they want to. That would fuck their agenda all up. But lots of people have experienced god. They stand out, but not because they're throwing rocks.

It takes an open heart more than an open mind. If your heart is open, then god will take care of blowing your mind to bits.

 

[Lori_7]

None taken. Not sure what you mean by arguing the scapegoat. Who is the scapegoat and for what?

Religion and the religious are the scapegoat. Religion and the religious are flawed so there is no god.

 

[Adstar]

Obvious question: how do you know?

If faith is trust in God, who is positively known to you, then there is no reason to have faith in God's existence. I think this is also Lori's stance.

I didn't say people have doubts in God's existence, only because of their faith.

I do not need faith in Gods existence. God exists this i know. Now don't ask me to prove it because i cannot prove it to you any more than lori can prove it.

Faith is about trusting a God you already know exists. No faith is needed in the teachings of God when you can understand the reasons behind those teachings. Faith is needed when one comes to a teaching of God that one cannot understand.


So i need no faith in the actual existence of God. I know God is.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[swarm]

Now don't ask me to prove it because i cannot prove it to you any more than lori can prove it.

Then you don't know, you only feel like you know.

For "god" I have higher standards than just what you think you know, particularly since you don't seem very discriminating or otherwise generally prone to cogent analysis.

All Praise The Ancient Of Daze

 

[Rav]

Obvious question: how do you know?

If faith is trust in God, who is positively known to you, then there is no reason to have faith in God's existence. I think this is also Lori's stance.

I didn't say people have doubts in God's existence, only because of their faith.

I'm not sure if you're asking me how I know that God exists, or if you're asking me how I know that other people do, so I'll answer both questions.

I personally can't say that I know that God exists in any traditional sense. I don't even know who or what God is, or even if I want to use the word God. To articulate my own views on the matter, I will defer to a greater man than myself who has already done it very well:

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

I would have to say that like Einstein, I'm more agnostic about the issue than anything else. But the more I understand about this orderly harmony, the more I become convinced that there is something behind it all. However it does not really bother me if other people feel differently. We all try to make sense of the world in our own way and one can only hope that each person does so without being misled by personal bias.

Fifteen or so years ago, when I was still a teenager, I became what you'd call a born again Christian. It was at the tail end of a significantly intense period of psychedelic drug use where from my perspective the entire world had been turned on it's head. I was desperately searching for answers, and I found them. I feel compelled to mention that it was a conscious decision rather than some chemically induced conversion experience. During this time I devoted myself to the study of Christian theology so much so that even after 15 years I still know more than the average Christian about what they believe, or at least what they are supposed to believe if they want to call themselves one. This period of my life only lasted about 18 months after which I resumed my search for a more satisfying and less problematic explanation for life, the universe and everything. So long and thanks for all the fish!

Hopefully that answers your question, whichever one it was

 

[lightgigantic]

...... is faith in the existence of God. I think any theist before becoming immersed in their chosen religion has to first establish a bonafide faith in God's existence.

kind of a non-brainer

even faith in the government requires some sort of inkling of the existence of the government

So my question is, why does God prefer this method? Surely, to know proof positive that He exists would eliminate faith altogether. One can only assume that God, if He exists, is ambiguous to a fault.

Not sure why one can only assume that?
Faith (in regards to anything) can range from a vague inclination to concrete resolution.

(Perhaps you are talking about the limits of what you can assume according to your knowledge base ....... and needless to say, there are tons of arguments out there about what determines the length and breadth of any knowledge base eg - the ol physics prof vs the high school drop out)

Regardless though, discussing any knowledge based claim divorced from faith is an epistemological paradox.

It must be very frustrating for a theist to have to resort to a belief that can't be corroborated. Some inventiveness is going to be required.

more accurately, its frustrating for any person to have to resort to evidencing their claim to a person of an insufficient knowledge base who is convinced otherwise.

(Taking the tentative principles of your argument, one could also discuss the faith of an atheist in that their current knowledge base is sufficient to discredit the notion of god's existence .... ie the range of faith that backs such a platform, from the mild faith of an agnostic to the intense faith of a neo-atheist)

The simplest theistic argument is that this is the way God wants it. Faith is more important than knowing. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you don't know anything about something then you can't establish truths.

I think you missed the part where faith plays an important part in increasing knowledge.

Its not so much the way that god wants it.

Its more the case that this is the means that all knowable claims work

If God does not want to prove Himself to us then even speculation is moot although the only conclusion a theist can reach is that God wants us to try.

If god wanted to do that it would make him unique.

Nothing else in this world makes itself knowable to a seer determined to do nothing but sit on their laurels

God wants us to speculate about Him even though it's pointless to do so....

I guess a slightly more advanced person than the one sitting on their laurels is one that speculates about god ... not that there is much practical distinction between them at the end of the day

a corollary to the simple theistic argument.... He likes it that way. So back to my original question, why?

Why earth would you expect epistemology to work any other way than

theory -> application - > conclusion

?????

I suspect any answer would have to contain more inventiveness because that question can't be answered truthfully.

If we apply these same epistemological principles to all knowable claims you have a requirement for the worlds scientists to do nothing but drool in plastic containers.
:shrug:

Personally I can't get my mind around faith in a god. There is absolutely no reason for me to even speculate about the existence of one let alone base my life on it.

I guess if theory doesn't even make it to first base, issues of application are dramatically curtailed

There is no doubt in my mind at least that theism runs counter to what evolution has endowed us with, intelligence. I do not think that because we are fortunate to be equipped with a self awareness mechanism, or a consciousness, that it automatically means it was divinely inspired or that a deity must exist just because we think it.

Its not so much an issue of intelligence, but the values that drive it

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I'm not really going to argue your points because....well...I detect your more sinister side. You know, the little condescending one that makes you so popular. So I am going to lower my standards just to respond. OK?

Faith (in regards to anything) can range from a vague inclination to concrete resolution.

Horse manure. The only thing concrete about faith is the heads of the faithful.

(Perhaps you are talking about the limits of what you can assume according to your knowledge base ....... and needless to say, there are tons of arguments out there about what determines the length and breadth of any knowledge base eg - the ol physics prof vs the high school drop out)

I agree, your knowledge is baseless.

more accurately, its frustrating for any person to have to resort to evidencing their claim to a person of an insufficient knowledge base who is convinced otherwise.

Quite right, yet we atheists still have time for brainless theists.

I think you missed the part where faith plays an important part in increasing knowledge.

I haven't witnessed anything to support that claim. Increased knowledge in what? Sky faeries?

Nothing else in this world makes itself knowable to a seer determined to do nothing but sit on their laurels

But nothing makes itself knowable to someone who goes after it? Speaking for yourself?

Its not so much an issue of intelligence, but the values that drive it

Yes, theism requires one to possess very little intelligence. Idiot savants are very focused and as you well know they abound in your area of expertise.

 

[Michael]

Faith in Xenu (or YHWA or Allah or Zeus etc...) is interesting. I'm sure there are as many reason for why people have faith/belief in such things exist as there are people ... yet I can't help but wonder if there is some underlying reason?

Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes


It's interesting that creatures as diverse as Xenu all the way over to Zeus still require your faith, based on hearsay (that is some book or person told you they are real). I mean, Intergalactic Warlords require faith?!?!? THAT is strange. WHY??? Why doesn't Xenu just fly over in his DC-10 spaceship and say hello? Why does he persist on requiring our faith just like a God???

It's just strange - completely baffling.