Faith-Based Apologetics

Q25 said:
check Ockhams razor sometime

... and then also check that this is simply the way to get a what seems the most feasible result in given circumstances. Which isn't necessarily the truth, nor is the best possible option.
If people would always strictly follow Occham's razor, we'd be living in caves, still.
 
Jenyar said:
You think the whole doctrine rests on a comma? (Yes, I know what a comma is).

I really don't understand why SouthStar keeps bringing up this comma? The so-called Johannine comma is in verse 1 John 5:7f which is rejected by most Protestants since the whole verse is missing completely from many older Greek manuscripts (and all of the oldest) and therefore must have been added by someone trying to modify the scriptures to bolster the Trinity doctrine. This has been rejected and omitted from many modern versions of the bible which do not even contain the verse (my interlinear contains the verse but it is marked as added by the translators - anything added by the translators is usually marked with italics). The arguments for the verse are primarily based upon the Latin Vulgate (Catholic) bible and not the Greek versions at all. As for the comma <i>there are no commas or any other puncuations in old Greek</i> so any comma MUST be added by the translator. The whole idea of punctuation is relatively modern.

In any case, the bible itself says, in both the OT and NT, "by the mouth of two or three witness let every matter be established" so any single verse is not enough to build a doctrine on anyway.
 
David F.: I really don't understand why SouthStar keeps bringing up this comma? The so-called Johannine comma is in verse 1 John 5:7f which is rejected by most Protestants since the whole verse is missing completely from many older Greek manuscripts (and all of the oldest) and therefore must have been added by someone trying to modify the scriptures to bolster the Trinity doctrine. This has been rejected and omitted from many modern versions of the bible which do not even contain the verse (my interlinear contains the verse but it is marked as added by the translators - anything added by the translators is usually marked with italics). The arguments for the verse are primarily based upon the Latin Vulgate (Catholic) bible and not the Greek versions at all. As for the comma <i>there are no commas or any other puncuations in old Greek</i> so any comma MUST be added by the translator. The whole idea of punctuation is relatively modern.

In any case, the bible itself says, in both the OT and NT, "by the mouth of two or three witness let every matter be established" so any single verse is not enough to build a doctrine on anyway.
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M*W: The truth is, there is no truth in Christianity. That's why Christianity presents rules and options. Her truths are obsolete. Her truth as out of date. Her truths are lacking wisdom. Please revive her truths. They are so obsolete!
 
anonymous2 said:
I don't think Judaism looks upon Jesus' "moral goodness". To them, if he existed and did the things mentioned in the NT, he tolerated/encouraged violation of the Law of Moses. If you want, go to http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2269&highlight=yeshu and see how they view the Jesus of the NT.
Did you actually read this page? It is so obviously fabricated and incorrect that all I could do is laugh. It is so full of the Jewish twisting of truth into lie.
 
Jenyar said:
You think the whole doctrine rests on a comma? (Yes, I know what a comma is).

Gaah! You are missing the point. He is basing his ENTIRE beliefs on the teachings (whether in part or in full) of a New Testament that has forgeries. That is my point exactly. Is it at all honest to put your trust in the "Word of God" which has forgeries?
 
Jenyar said:
We believe the Bible because it tells about Jesus, not in Jesus because the Bible tells us about Him.

What about the non-cannonical works? Hmm.. seems like you're digging a hole..

If it told us about Muhammed, we would not have believed it.

How do you know?

Jesus is God's Word, one that can be heard and understood without the intervention of text - but who can be expressed through text as well as any person. "Inerrancy" does not apply to a person - you either trust him or you don't.

May I ask: how is Jesus "God's Word"? And why also do you suppose He can be "heard and understood without the intervention of text". And just before you say I am misinterpreting you, let me ask you: Do you believe the Bible is God's Word? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.
 
Medicine Woman said:
M*W: The truth is, there is no truth in Christianity. That's why Christianity presents rules and options. Her truths are obsolete. Her truth as out of date. Her truths are lacking wisdom. Please revive her truths. They are so obsolete!
Yes, modern Christianity is so corrupted that I don't know how it can be revived - I spend much time wondering how such a thing might be done. But, then again, it really isn't up to me is it? If God exists (and I believe He does) then He really doesn't need my help, does He?

There is one truth which does remain, the only truth which really matters - Jesus is LORD.
 
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Patriot said:
Southstar:: Satan, if he exists, must believe in God, because of the inherent nature of Satan.

Why do you presume Satan "believes in" God (because of his "inherent nature")?

How could there be a source of evil, without a source of good?

What makes you presume these things cannot have the same source? God is omnipotent, isn't He?

If Satan exists, where did he come from? If Satan exists, why be evil, without something to be evil against? That fact, being subjective and I apologize, rests on the postulate that Satan does exist.

By now you have COMPLETELY contradicted yourself. First you claim that rationale has no basis for faith and now you are making the highly naieve assumption that Satan is rationale and therefore requires "something to be evil against". You further contradict yourself that a source of good must simultaneously coexist/coincide with a source of good.


Christianity does see the Satan as the source of most evil, but MORE importantly, a direct enemy to God. I say most evil, because some evil comes from human choices. And as for evil coming from the Father, first why couldn't it? Who says God is moral? I personally believe the God is amoral. And secondly, it is another point that has to be taken with a grain of salt, and a bucket of faith.

According to the Bible you claim is God's Word, God is holy and is incapable of evil. He is a "GOOD" God. I suggest looking up the word "holy" in the dictionary sometime before your reply for even the very definition of "holy" rejects your claim that God is "amoral". This is of course, completely apart from the explicit claim from the "Word of God" that God is good and can do not evil. Do you now reject and contradict the very Word of God?

The Bible says that the Bible is God's word. I don't believe the Qu'ran does...I may be wrong on that- need to check.

And as for Muhammad, while his teachings are wonderful from a moral standpoint, his teachings may or may not be divine, that is God speaking through him. I have yet to ascertain that, as I am not concerned with it. However, as a Christian, I do believe that everything in the Bible is divine and God driven, including the people mentioned in it.

Here you go again contradicting yourself. If Mohammed's teachings are "wonderful from a moral standpoint" then his claims CAN NOT be lies. If his claims are untrue, that makes him a liar and therefore his teachings CAN NOT be "wonderful from a moral standpoint" as you say. And if his teachings "may be divine" then is it not foolish of you to say you are not "concerned" with it?

I apologize for the points I've missed/ignored. I will return, must be in class right now.

Do so please.
 
David F. said:
Did you actually read this page? It is so obviously fabricated and incorrect that all I could do is laugh. It is so full of the Jewish twisting of truth into lie.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA! :D

For someone who claims to take things on faith and not reason, you sure are quick to condemn others for twisting some subjective "truth" into a "lie".

Hahaha!
 
David F. said:
Did you actually read this page? It is so obviously fabricated and incorrect that all I could do is laugh. It is so full of the Jewish twisting of truth into lie.

I read some of it. Some of it seems unconvincing, although I think they do have a couple of points. Of course, as a Christian, you see it as "so full of the Jewish twisting of truth into lie." To them, Christianity is basically "Christian twisting of Jewish truth into lie." To them, converting Jews is murdering Jewish souls (that is unless they turn back to Judaism).

Christianity basically did away with the Law of Moses. That's blasphemous to Judaism. You can try to explain it by saying that the law still exists, but once you say a Jew doesn't need to follow the Law of Moses, then you're saying something blasphemous to Judaism.

Also, if it's so obviously fabricated and incorrect that all you could do is laugh, why not go over there and show them how ridiculous their opinions are? Or are they all "blinded by the god of this world"? ;)
 
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David F. said:
I really don't understand why SouthStar keeps bringing up this comma? The so-called Johannine comma is in verse 1 John 5:7f which is rejected by most Protestants since the whole verse is missing completely from many older Greek manuscripts (and all of the oldest) and therefore must have been added by someone trying to modify the scriptures to bolster the Trinity doctrine. This has been rejected and omitted from many modern versions of the bible which do not even contain the verse (my interlinear contains the verse but it is marked as added by the translators - anything added by the translators is usually marked with italics). The arguments for the verse are primarily based upon the Latin Vulgate (Catholic) bible and not the Greek versions at all. As for the comma <i>there are no commas or any other puncuations in old Greek</i> so any comma MUST be added by the translator. The whole idea of punctuation is relatively modern.

My response to this is addressed to Jenyar above since saw his post first.

In any case, the bible itself says, in both the OT and NT, "by the mouth of two or three witness let every matter be established" so any single verse is not enough to build a doctrine on anyway.

This is a rather stupid remark. If that is the case, then since none of the Christian generation of today can be considered "witnesses", you have effectively contradicted yourself since no Christian matter can be "established". Moreover, you are taking the text HORRIBLY out of context

Deuteronomy 19:15
One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Matthew 18
15"If your brother sins against you,[1] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

As you can see NEITHER of the verses can support your presumption in their proper contexts. Again, it is YOU who have twisted "truth" to fit your whims.
 
David F. said:
Yes, modern Christianity is so corrupted that I don't know how it can be revived - I spend much time wondering how such a thing might be done.


David, if it is corrupted, which you have not stated in a few different threads why follow it? I don't understand. By following it, are you not as corrupt as it is? What do you feel is corrupt about it? More importantly, it seems that you spritually base your life or morals and deeds within the context of society as opposed to dogma (morality within the context of the Bible). That is not Christian. At all. Did I make a correct observation on your understanding or morality? If I did, why do you hold on to a dogma that is contexutally incongruent with modern society? Obviously from the summation of your post morality is a key compent to your personal spritual being. At least from my vantage point it seems so.
 
§outh§tar said:
Gaah! You are missing the point. He is basing his ENTIRE beliefs on the teachings (whether in part or in full) of a New Testament that has forgeries. That is my point exactly. Is it at all honest to put your trust in the "Word of God" which has forgeries?
But the pieces in John and Mark that could be considered "commas" aren't forgeries! They're added later, yes - but not inconsistent. If anything, it should show you that the Trinity wasn't invented at Nicea, as many believe.

Another point is that the "New Testament" is a collection. If you decide that something is forged, at most you should only reject that particular unit. You don't throw out all the articles in a journal because one is faulty, and the same applies to the Bible.

Which brings me to the next point: the ones that are faulty -the ones that were clearly forged (like the gospel of Barnabas), written later (like the infancy narratives), inconsistent with earlier writings, showing bias or invention - are what we call apocrypha and pseudogrypha.

If you want to distrust all of it, that's your choice. But it's scholarly dishonest to reject everything because you find fault with some of it. You're overcorrecting.
 
§outh§tar said:
What about the non-cannonical works? Hmm.. seems like you're digging a hole..
Like I said, they're non-canonical for a good reason. If you don't agree with someone else's assessment of them, most are available on the internet so you can read them yourself and make up your own mind about them.

How do you know?
I don't have a relationship with Muhammed, but with Jesus, the grace of God. He is who I believe in, and the content of what I believe.

May I ask: how is Jesus "God's Word"? And why also do you suppose He can be "heard and understood without the intervention of text". And just before you say I am misinterpreting you, let me ask you: Do you believe the Bible is God's Word? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.
You would like that, wouldn't you? A simple yes or no. Either will support your case against it. But your question makes assumptions about what "God's Word" is supposed to look or sound like, that we have to clear up first. Somehow you got the notion that it was spoken or dictated by God himself, while the Bible uses the term "God-breathed". Did you know that Adam was also "God-breathed"? The Holy Spirit is "God's Breath". How are words formed? By articulating breath using your tongue and lips. They can come from the chapped lips of a dying man, or the first clumsy attempts of a baby, but they must be called 'words'. There are many words within the Bible. The literal translation of "ten commandments", for example, is "the ten words".

The problem usually isn't with the words spoken, but with the ears listening. Can you remember how often Jesus repeated the words "he who has ears, let him listen"? Did you ever wonder why he would say that? He seems to state the obvious, but it seems he did not assume it would be so obvious. Yes, it's an expression meaning "pay attention now". What Jesus had to say went beyond mere words or hearing - it required attention.

Yes, SouthStar, God's words can be heard without the interevention of text, or even lips. You don't need to pick the Bible apart to find God, and you won't have to look far to find that the mediums He used were often flawed, struggling, stuttering human beings, like Moses, or Gideon, or Saul, or David. The question is, [are you paying attention?
 
Let me see...where to begin? From the top:

1) In your original post you said you are here to defend your faith? Why is it neccessary to do this when you are a large part of the majority in the United States and at this point extinction of your religion is such a remote improbality that I would say the chances are zilch. 2) Why is there such a strong effort for conversion. Given the knowedge that most people worship a God and that most agnostic and athiests seem to fall into inot the humanist categories or utilitarian categories which are very value oriented as a whole...

1) By saying defending my faith, I mean against the charges that have been brought against it here on this forum, not nationally or internationally.

2) A strong effort for "conversion" is out of compassion. I don't like knowing that a lot of humanity will burn for eternity. It is also what my God has told me to do. (I know I'm going to get flack for that comment...)

So, hundreds of thousands of measurements taken over the course of centuries don't count as evidence? Thousands of pictures taken of the planets that have never found one discrepancy? Also, how did we ever land rovers on Mars if our model of solar system is wrong? Luck? I suggest pulling your head out of your ass because it's pretty far up in there.

Matrix, please remember that these measurements are taken from a body in motion, relative to other things around it. For example, if you are on a subway running through a station, it may seem to an ignorant person that the station is moving, not the train. If you had no knowledge of the outside world, you may think that the station is indeed moving, not you. Same thing from here on Earth. Yes, I know that we have been to space. But it is still the same principle. There is no absolute stationary point in the universe to take measurements from. And both models of the solar system, geocentric and heliocentric, provide the same numbers when deciding on where a planet is going to be. Check the research. Wish I had a link to it...may have to search for it.

You do not need to have belief that tomorrow will come for it to happen.

The same applies to God. You do not have to believe in Him in order for Him to exist, correct?

It's always come before, and there would be no point in expecting it to not come.

The same applies to my faith in God. He's never failed me before, so why disbelieve in Him?

faith n. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
You have no logical proof or material evidence for god. Lack of belief is not faith, faith requires belief in something. I don't believe in god, that is not faith.
Atheists believe that there is no God. It's the same as 'disbelieving' God. ALl depends on where the negative is. This applies to Q25's question also.

Yeah humans are real rational, coming from Mr. I-have-decided-to-dismiss-all-logic-so-I-can-never-be-wrong. Why do you even come to a forum to talk when your mind is already made up about everything? Seriously what's the point? Why don't you go start a cult, Mr. Infallable.
Matrix, you're losing your rationality.... :D

What makes you presume these things cannot have the same source? God is omnipotent, isn't He?
Most philosophers assume God has infinite power in things that are logical. IE: He can't make a square circle, or a rock so big that He can't lift it. It just doesn't make sense to ask that, much less an answer. To me, and according to religious texts, it does not make logical sense that evil and good come from the same source.


In addition, about the commas of the New Testament, there are plenty of ways of interpreting these. However, does it really matter? References to the Trinity are all throughout the Bible, Old and New Testament. Southstar, as a former Christian, you should know this.

Jesus Walks,
Patriot
 
Patriot wrote:
To me, and according to religious texts, it does not make logical sense that evil and good come from the same source.

why not? was satan not a fallen person or angel? was he not fallen and cast out of heaven or whatever? If he was a creation of god gone bad how does it not make logical sense that evil and good come from the same source?

EZEKIEL 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries . .
 
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M*W: My dear SouthStar, surely you realize Jenyar is grasping at straws. You have found the truth while Jenyar still believes the lies. Don't fall victim to Jenyar's religion. You've grown above that! I hope you listen to the truth and not the lies.
 
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