Evolution--->(perfection?)----->CONFUSED?!?!

[Warrior61]

First of all evolution is not a being, so it doesn't act.
I guess you call environmental pressure and gene variety the cause of evolution..
Who said life has no origin ??

Let me ask you this: have you actually at least tried to learn about evolution ?
You seem like a very biased person, and probably are just another theist looking for a fight.

LoL You got me!!!!!! Im here looking for a fight!!! LoL yes I have studied buy I have yet to find anything on the origin of evolution. If you say its in that evolution is built into the world then my question is how did the world/universe get here. I am honestly not looking for a fight, I couldn't sleep the other night for about 3 hrs. pondering the origin of evolution. I haven't been to sciforums in a while so I thought I would come here for answers.

Some evolutionist believe everything started with the "big bang." Some just believe everything has been here. As a Christian if the Genesis account of the origin of the world is not true then my whole faith falls apart. As atheists if evolution and the explanation of the origin apart from a Creator is proven to be a fallacy then the same thing happens to them.

So how did evolution get here? Did a particle combust and evolution is a chain reaction, is everything in existence in existence because of evolution, is evolution just a component of the cosmos that like the cosmos has no origin?

 

[Warrior61]

The process of biological evolution is built into reality.

Only biological? So it has no origin? What, in your opinion, is the constant, non-originated thing in the universe?

Thanks, please do not take this as if i am attacking you.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Only biological?

You were referring to biological evolution so I made it an explicit statement.

So it has no origin?

It depends on how you are defining 'origin' and the result might show that you're not asking a coherent question. Regardless, the statement "it is built into reality" conveys the correct meaning.

What, in your opinion, is the constant, non-originated thing in the universe?

I don't quite understand what you are asking; however, if you are inquiring about features of the universe that are constant then I would say that it's what it inherited from reality... a presence of information that is consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory.

Thanks, please do not take this as if i am attacking you.

I don't.

 

[spidergoat]

Evolution describes the nature of cause and effect under certain conditions that I explained. If there is copying with variation (error), and some form of selection of the initial copying entity, then those entities will change over time.

The same principle can be put to work in computer programs. It has no existence of it's own, it's just a description of what happens in some kinds of systems.

As atheists if evolution and the explanation of the origin apart from a Creator is proven to be a fallacy then the same thing happens to them.

No, that is not correct. My trust in the ability of evolution to explain how complex life arose is not based on faith. If it were disproven, I would not be devastated, but rather fascinated by what actually happened.

Also, you equate belief in evolution with the big bang, they are separate explanations for separate things. Of course, they aren't really separate, but somewhat different rules and principles apply- Quantum dynamics rather than chemistry.

 

[Myles]

Hi folks,
Am I the only one who sees why this guy is here ? He's playing what he regardsas a clever game, What is the origin of a, x but what is the origin of x, b, but what is ...and so on ad nauseaum . Hell find everything he needs to support his ignorance on any one of a number of Creationist sites, where the truth is tailored to confirm the biblical account of things.

 

[Myles]

Only biological? So it has no origin? What, in your opinion, is the constant, non-originated thing in the universe?

Thanks, please do not take this as if i am attacking you.

Cut to the chase and tell us about god and Genesis. Then tell us the origin of god, as you seem so keen on asking about origins.

 

[spidergoat]

Hi folks,
Am I the only one who sees why this guy is here ? He's playing what he regardsas a clever game, What is the origin of a, x but what is the origin of x, b, but what is ...and so on ad nauseaum . Hell find everything he needs to support his ignorance on any one of a number of Creationist sites, where the truth is tailored to confirm the biblical account of things.

So what? Can't you answer a question without the attitude?

 

[shichimenshyo]

Yea man...hes just asking questions...chill.

 

[Cris]

Warrior1,

Evolution is simply all about change; whether biological evolution or otherwise. Its essential characteristic is one of undirected and unintentional change, although, if humans are involved in the process then some intentions become part of the process - e.g. the evolution of computers from the simple abacus to the modern day super computer. In this later case man has no idea where computers will end up but we do see that what they do does change over time.

Look at anything and everything around you, whether man made or not, and you will see that everything interacts and undergoes change. A piece of metal left in the open air will oxidize over time and produce new substances that will react with the environment. Earthquakes on the ocean floor and undersea volcanoes push up material that moves whole massive parts of the planet surface around, these in turn create mountains, etc.

At the microcosmic level of atoms and chemical compounds many elements combine and create new materials and quantities that in turn affect the environment or surroundings. Diamonds for example are made from carbon and so are we. But diamonds form from pressure and time.

All the time anything in the universe is in motion then interactions will occur and those interactions may or may not cause other interactions. At the subatomic level there are primal forces that attract or repel. From a casual look at the periodic table we can see how a vast number of very different and fascinating materials can be formed by the simple interactions of basic building blocks and the primal forces.

That biological entities formed should come as no surprise since the basic building block in biology is carbon and that particular element is one that can form more interactions with other elements than any other. Given the vast amount of motion that the universe creates and the high degree of interaction made possible via carbon then simple life was inevitable. And as we see with many chains of interactions simplicity grows into complexity through continual interactions.

There is nothing intentional about evolutionary processes, although now that man has evolved to a point where he understands what is happening then his future is very likely to evolve at an accelerated pace since he can now add elements of direction and intention to those underlying undirected processes.

As for origins in general, there can be no such thing as an origin. An origin implies a beginning and for any event to occur there would need to be something to initiate the event. That in turn requires that something existed before the beginning. That indicates an impossible infinite series.

The Big Bang is often posited as the beginning of the universe but modern versions of the theory simply view the BB as a point where matter was far denser than it is now. It is not that matter and energy was created at that point. As to its cause then that is unknown and theories about that are also quite prolific e.g. the cyclic idea of bang, expansion, collapse, implosion, bang, and the cycle repeats infinitely. Another theory posits that this BB is just one of an infinite number of concurrent BBs, just like bubbles in a soda pop bottle. Another perspective points out that there are serious flaws in BB theory and no such event ever took place.

What is a constant in everything we observe is that everything reacts and interacts and from such interactions change can occur. Sometimes these changes are constructive and sometimes destructive. What is also clear is that these changes are unintentional and undirected.

Evolution in all its forms has no beginning, and the question of how it began has no meaning; it is simply part of how the universe operates –

Evolution = motion -> interactions -> change.

 

[Norsefire]

Not so much. We have a pretty good idea how planets form, and what causes lightning. Water is very common in the universe.

My point exactly. The scientist may tell you about what he perceives, but not their origins. He may tell you of their origins within what he perceives, but he cannot tell you how existence itself came to be nor why it is here. He cannot define it for you. He cannot measure it for you.


Where did the materials needed to form the universe come from? And they? And they?

A Creator

Perhaps slightly off topic but your post was a prime example.

 

[Cris]

Norsefire,

Where did the materials needed to form the universe come from? And they? And they?

A Creator

Or the infinitely more obvious and infinitely more credible. They have always existed.

Why add the fantasy of something supernatural when no such explanation is needed or has any basis?

 

[shichimenshyo]

Why do we have the same tired arguments over how existence came to be? It always degenerates into overs simplified answers that really dont get anyone anywhere, all of existence is infinite in its scope, so I would assume that the reasons behind how it came to be or even what it really is are equally infinitely hard to understand. We lack the ability to really fathom what we call existence, so why argue about it when none of us really will ever know?

 

[Enmos]

LoL You got me!!!!!! Im here looking for a fight!!! LoL yes I have studied buy I have yet to find anything on the origin of evolution. If you say its in that evolution is built into the world then my question is how did the world/universe get here. I am honestly not looking for a fight, I couldn't sleep the other night for about 3 hrs. pondering the origin of evolution. I haven't been to sciforums in a while so I thought I would come here for answers.

Ok, I apologize for insinuating that you were then. It's just obvious what your motives are when you ask these questions. You ask them with God in the back of your mind.

Some evolutionist believe everything started with the "big bang." Some just believe everything has been here.

We don't know how everything came to be, the big bang is just an explanation for the current state of everything. What was before that or if there was a before we don't know.

As a Christian if the Genesis account of the origin of the world is not true then my whole faith falls apart. As atheists if evolution and the explanation of the origin apart from a Creator is proven to be a fallacy then the same thing happens to them.

All you can do is look at the facts and make up your own mind.

So how did evolution get here? Did a particle combust and evolution is a chain reaction, is everything in existence in existence because of evolution, is evolution just a component of the cosmos that like the cosmos has no origin?

You see, this is why I asked if you studied evolution. That question just makes no sense. Evolution is not 'a thing', it's a process (or rather processes).

--

Short explanation:

There are three driving forces behind evolution: natural selection, genetic drift and gene-flow.

Natural selection is a process that favors traits that gives organisms a better chance for survival and reproduction.
A trait is an distinct observable quality of an organism that is the result of gene-expression.
So over the generations favorable heritable traits become more abundant in the population, while unfavorable heritable traits become less abundant.

Genetic drift is a random change in the gene frequencies of a population brought on by chance events. So if half of the population is somehow instantly destroyed it could be that some genes are more abundant in the surviving half of the population than the were in the original population.

Gene-flow is the exchange of genes between populations. If this is hindered in some way genetic differences have a greater chance of occurring between the populations. Or individuals of a population could join another population in so influence the gene pool.

 

[spidergoat]

My point exactly. The scientist may tell you about what he perceives, but not their origins. He may tell you of their origins within what he perceives, but he cannot tell you how existence itself came to be nor why it is here. He cannot define it for you. He cannot measure it for you.


Where did the materials needed to form the universe come from? And they? And they?

A Creator

Perhaps slightly off topic but your post was a prime example.

What are materials? They are mostly nothing aren't they? I do not deny that there appears to be a formative event, but was it separate from it's causes? Having an answer is not always preferrable or superior to not having one.

What is the difference between something and nothing?
What is the difference between a uniform infinity of solid, and a uniform infinity of nothingness?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Hi folks,
Am I the only one who sees why this guy is here ? He's playing what he regardsas a clever game, What is the origin of a, x but what is the origin of x, b, but what is ...and so on ad nauseaum . Hell find everything he needs to support his ignorance on any one of a number of Creationist sites, where the truth is tailored to confirm the biblical account of things.

If you answer his question you are pitting his perception of objective reality against the real thing. That's a good way for him to learn.

 

[Enmos]

Having an answer is not always preferrable or superior to not having one.

Especially when the answer is based on exactly zilch.

 

[Norsefire]

What are materials? They are mostly nothing aren't they? I do not deny that there appears to be a formative event, but was it separate from it's causes? Having an answer is not always preferrable or superior to not having one.

What is the difference between something and nothing?
What is the difference between a uniform infinity of solid, and a uniform infinity of nothingness?

Our existence. There is gravity, magnetism, inertia, etc, but WHAT ARE THEY? How do you measure them? How do they exist? Where could they have come from if there was absolute nothing, if existence in itself is an impossibility. Until a scientist can show me, I choose to believe in a Creator. Whether it be Abrahamic God or a scientist examining us under a microscope, there was a creator in my opinion.

 

[James R]

Warrior61:

What is evolution's origin? Not the theory/concept/idea of evolution.

Evolution occurs because resources are limited and living things compete for those limited resources. Only two things are needed for evolution: descent with variation, and natural selection. Given those, evolution is automatic.

If you say its in that evolution is built into the world then my question is how did the world/universe get here.

The universe started with the big bang. But that's a physics question that has nothing to do with evolution.

As a Christian if the Genesis account of the origin of the world is not true then my whole faith falls apart.

I'd be careful in basing your faith on such a shakey foundation.

Is it not obvious to you that the Genesis myth is at best an allegory? I mean, do you really believe in talking snakes, and that men have one less rib than women?


Norsefire:

Our existence. There is gravity, magnetism, inertia, etc, but WHAT ARE THEY? How do you measure them? How do they exist?

Look up any first-year undergraduate physics textbook to find the answers.

At some point, you need to take responsibility for your own education.

Where could they have come from if there was absolute nothing, if existence in itself is an impossibility.

Clearly, existence isn't an impossibility, because here we are.

Brain on. Think.

Until a scientist can show me, I choose to believe in a Creator.

Why is that the default?

 

[Myles]

So what? Can't you answer a question without the attitude?

If by attitude you mean a reluctance to be drawn into an infinite regress about the origin of the origin of the origin........ then I have an attitude. I. however, call it common sense.

 

[Norsefire]

Warrior61:

Norsefire:



Look up any first-year undergraduate physics textbook to find the answers.

At some point, you need to take responsibility for your own education.

Will they tell me how they came to be or how they exist (as in, "run" in our universe? How does it work if there is no system to measure it? What is it if there is nothing? Nothing?
What is the origin of exisence? And how can you even think to have something......how can something be measured if there is not even nothing.

Clearly, existence isn't an impossibility, because here we are.

Brain on. Think.



Why is that the default?

Because that is the only plausible explanation. How do you know we are not in some test bubble, being examined by a far superior race? That we are not an experiment, inside a marble?
The mere fact that we exist on the realm we do, imo, proves something created our universe.........something that must have been created by outside influence (from a different realm of existence).