Evolution debunked?

the title of the thread is "Evolution debunked?"

of course things are not this simple. It is impossible to debunk evolution with some examples and observations.

The current theory is backed by an enormous amount of papers and data. A single contradiction will do nothing to dislodge all this data. If you want to debunk evolution, you not only need to provide observations which cannot be explained with the modern theory of evolution, you also have to provide a competing theory that not only explains the new observations, but can also explain all the existing data.

unfortunately creationists and their associates don't seem to understand this.
 
Evolution is the sum total of a set of agents. All evolutionary agents have since been proven. You people need to do your research. This is no advanced concept, it's simplistic and obvious to prove.

Why is it so many people post stupid ideas and NEVER ever do proper research?

Quit being lazy. Do work.
 
spuriousmonkey-

the title of the thread is "Evolution debunked?"

Check out the link in the first post. If I'm on the right track regarding the intention of this thread, its mocking the link.

unfortunately creationists and their associates don't seem to understand this.

Check out the link, your statment will be proven correct. Plus you'll get a laugh or you'll pull your hair out, one of the two:D
 
I have seen it...i made a statement about it earlier in the thread. I'm just giving my opinion on how silly the notion is to debunk evolution with for instance one observation...
 
Originally posted by SnakeLord
Why are some people very dark skinned? Why are some people olive skinned? Why are some people very pale in colour with blonde hair and blue eyes?
Short answer: genes
Longer answer: Skin must be exposed to sunlight to modify cholesterol in the dermis and produce vitamin D (used to absorb Ca++). This is a photon/radiation based reaction. Therefor someone with dark skin in a low light level climate will die for lack of vit. D production. Except now its in most milk, cereral,etc... Therefor to get vit D in low light levels you need light skin color to allow the photon to past into the dermis and catalyze the reaction and make yourself some vitD :)

Originally posted by SnakeLord
What distinguishes whether someone comes out one colour or another?
genes.
 
spuriousmonkey-

I have seen it...i made a statement about it earlier in the thread. I'm just giving my opinion on how silly the notion is to debunk evolution with for instance one observation...

Oh ok. True, True.
 
Longer answer: Skin must be exposed to sunlight to modify cholesterol in the dermis and produce vitamin D (used to absorb Ca++). This is a photon/radiation based reaction. Therefor someone with dark skin in a low light level climate will die for lack of vit. D production. Except now its in most milk, cereral,etc... Therefor to get vit D in low light levels you need light skin color to allow the photon to past into the dermis and catalyze the reaction and make yourself some vitD

Thanks. This could be labelled as environmental conditioning. This is what many people forget to take into consideration. It isn't whether a cow can grow wings and fly it's about whether they need to or not. Everything adapts in accordance with the environment. Evolutionary changes occur due to this, not because they can- but because they need to.

People around the world have different skin tones based on the level of sunlight and heat because its an essential to survival. In modern perspective a child born to dark skinned parents will himself be dark skinned- the genes have adapted in advance. Luckily as mentioned we now consume matter that contains vitamins we need anyway, but in the old days of roasting cows legs day after day it had purpose.

Spiders in england spin a web in a corner and wait for something to fall into it.

Some spiders in Australia hang upside down and twirl goo on their legs which makes a sound identical to the type of moth they eat. Another spider looks identical to the ant it eats- but of course has one problem that it has 8 legs and not 6... However the ant has two antennae. The spider uses its two front legs as fake antennae and walks along with the ants who are clueless.

Many species of animal, (mainly insects), have adapted to such extremes- threatening skin colours, defensive mechanisms such as poison, light strobes etc again because they need to in order to survive.

A spider in england has no need to swing goo for moths and no need to look like an ant- so it doesn't. If there is a need to adapt and evolve due to environmental situation creatures will, over time, change in order to prolong their survival.

Some frogs who are known to be overly numerous in female numbers have adapted so they can change sexual orientation to suit the survival needs of that species.

It is overwhelmingly apparent things do change, adapt and evolve- and if that ability exists now what makes you think it hasn't always been that way?

Humans work in the same manner- environmental need...

Look at tribal people who live in the rainforest naked. You try that, you'd be dead within a week, but these people survive and flourish for they have adapted to suit the environment.

There is absolutely nothing to assume an all powerful being who had a jewish son created us but that the land itself and the environment that evolved did so in order to survive and in order to expand. You could say: "What makes something want to survive?" But then it could be questioned why you don't just go and kill yourself. We live to live, not to die.

The environmental condtioning is added to by interbreeding and subtle gene differences that carry on to the next generation. For example if you take an african man and a white woman they'd give birth to a person referred to as 'half-caste'. In doing so and entirely new strain of 'creature' is formed. Colour is not the only issue..... we can talk of differences in bone structure and so on. Some will be passed on and so on and so forth..

The only real issue that causes any problems with anything is: "well how did it all start?"

The fact is we do not know, none of us. Making assumptions based on ancient texts is actually worthless. By looking at what we know, see and can test we move further to finding answers. By guessing and having faith we just stop moving altogether.
 
i would like to just point out that NEVER have we been able to confirm life from non-life, the principle of abiogenesis. why should this be so difficult if it presumably happened on our planet so many millions of years ago? our lab conditions are at least 100 times better than any possible conditions on our planet back in those times, it's absurd to even think that creating life should be this difficult. until science can prove that life can occur from non-life, evolutionary science is left with a huge hole.

although evolution is a relatively brilliant science, it comes with a multitude of flaws. theists exploit these flaws and tell blatant lies about them, atheists simply overlook these flaws and focus on evolutionary archeology... it's an endless cycle of blind faith.

evolution has not been debunked, however, it still doesn't mean that evolution is fact. it's merely our only choice. remember, before long distance sea travel was possible the only choice we had was to presume the earth was flat. it truely sounds absurd today, just imagine what we'll know 500 years from now.
 
science is not about facts

it is about data and interpretation of that data.

It seems however that the data supports the theory of evolution quite well. I haven't encountered any major problems with fitting the evolutionary interpretation with the data yet.

I can't say the same thing about any other 'theory'.
 
Originally posted by ChrisW
it's absurd to even think that creating life should be this difficult.
Go to the lab and give it a try if it’s so easy!

Originally posted by ChrisW
..until science can prove that life can occur from non-life, evolutionary science is left with a huge hole.
Wrong. Evolution explains change not origins. ie: try using electromagnetic theory to help explain mountain formation. Doesn't kick out to many answers on the topic huh?

Originally posted by ChrisW
it still doesn't mean that evolution is fact.
Yes, it is a fact. Unfortunately its constantly taken out of context.

Originally posted by ChrisW
remember, before long distance sea travel was possible the only choice we had was to presume the earth was flat.
This isn’t true (Eratosthenes) but I do see your point. I can imagine most people in 230BC didn’t understand math or geometry. Had Eratosthenes tried to explain to them that the earth was round they’d have laughed in his face and pointed to the horizon (maybe twirling their finger around their ear). In the exact same way most Theist do not understand evolution.
 
Originally posted by Michael
Go to the lab and give it a try if it’s so easy!

Wrong. Evolution explains change not origins. ie: try using electromagnetic theory to help explain mountain formation. Doesn't kick out to many answers on the topic huh?


Yes, it is a fact. Unfortunately its constantly taken out of context.


This isn’t true (Eratosthenes) but I do see your point. I can imagine most people in 230BC didn’t understand math or geometry. Had Eratosthenes tried to explain to them that the earth was round they’d have laughed in his face and pointed to the horizon (maybe twirling their finger around their ear). In the exact same way most Theist do not understand evolution.
You know i would go to the lab and try, but just about EVERYTHING has been tried and failed, i heard they even tried making life in an condition that even if it worked, the "life" would end up disitegrating seconds after being "born". theres really no good scientific reason why it should be this hard to make life (that was my point).

also the basis for atheistic evolution is abiogenesis, without it where do atheists stand? we speculate all the time about how life began miles beneath the ocean on thermal vents and yada yada yada. yet we know reproducing this very occurence in a lab yields NOTHING, not even the slightest interaction from the "ingredients" put in.

real science never lets a theory or hypothesis deride their attempts to find a new theory of hypothesis, why should evolutionary theory be any different? take any misconception of the human race and at the time is seemed reasonable and fact, but in time it began to look more and more absurd. i cant say that this will happen with evolutionary theory, but it is indeed one possible outcome. to say that it is fact and will never be proven wrong is essentially anti-science.
 
ChrisW-

until science can prove that life can occur from non-life

In scientific experiments they have been able to reproduce the a situation where it mimics the type of atmospheric conditions present at the onset of life on earth. What they got from these experiments were the essential building blocks of life that went on later to form amino acids. One major obstacle, was the lack of ability to duplicate a crucial element.....and that would be the callosal amount of time necessary to have the atoms evolve into life. It took a very long time for the essential elements to form into the building blocks used for the foundation of life.

Time my friend, is a very big key.

it's an endless cycle of blind faith.

How can you say this? It has nothing to do with blind faith. We have evidence and facts to support evolution. Of course at present we do not have a complete understanding of this process, but that doesnt mean the whole process is flawed into falsehood.

evolution has not been debunked, however, it still doesn't mean that evolution is fact.

Evolution is both a fact and a theory.We have established the fact of evolution, and proposed a theory- natural selection, to explain the mechanism of evolution.

Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts.

Hope this clears some things up for you.
 
Originally posted by DefSkeptic
ChrisW-



In scientific experiments they have been able to reproduce the a situation where it mimics the type of atmospheric conditions present at the onset of life on earth. What they got from these experiments were the essential building blocks of life that went on later to form amino acids. One major obstacle, was the lack of ability to duplicate a crucial element.....and that would be the callosal amount of time necessary to have the atoms evolve into life. It took a very long time for the essential elements to form into the building blocks used for the foundation of life.

Time my friend, is a very big key.
ahh the miller experiment i presume? yeah the problem was when they re-did the experiment with the actual pre-biotic earth conditions it yielded nearly nothing. if you weren't talking about the miller experiment please give me a link or tell me what experiment you're speaking of.
 
Chrisw: Would you believe for one second you could re-create anything god ever did in a laboratory?

No? By that same token do you honestly think a laboratory can even begin to re-create events of the universe or re-creation of evolution?

We know nothing, none of us. Some grasp at invisible beings, some grasp at aliens, some grasp at complete randomness- hell, some people even think we dont actually exist. Nobody knows the true facts concerning the beginning of time. We can all speculate and make up theories- usually those theories would be based on observable events and occurences. We know things do evolve and thus theories relating to it are more viable. The religious mans entire theory lives in an ancient book which can hardly be classed as having any viability whatsoever.

Work is done in stages- but do not expect that a failure by scientists to re-create the beginnings of the earth is actually somehow disputing validity of evolution.
 
ChrisW-

ahh the miller experiment i presume? yeah the problem was when they re-did the experiment with the actual pre-biotic earth conditions it yielded nearly nothing. if you weren't talking about the miller experiment please give me a link or tell me what experiment you're speaking of.

Pmilurey.gif


The gases they used were methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), hydrogen (H2), and water (H2O). Next, he ran a continuous electric current through the system, to simulate lightning storms believed to be common on the early earth. Analysis of the experiment was done by chromotography. At the end of one week, Miller observed that as much as 10-15% of the carbon was now in the form of organic compounds. Two percent of the carbon had formed some of the amino acids which are used to make proteins. Perhaps most importantly, Miller's experiment showed that organic compounds such as amino acids, which are essential to cellular life, could be made easily under the conditions that scientists believed to be present on the early earth. This enormous finding inspired a multitude of further experiments.

But to be fair it did say this-

There has been a recent wave of skepticism concerning Miller's experiment because it is now believed that the early earth's atmosphere did not contain predominantly reductant molecules. Another objection is that this experiment required a tremendous amount of energy. While it is believed lightning storms were extremely common on the primitive Earth, they were not continuous as the Miller/Urey experiment portrayed. Thus it has been argued that while amino acids and other organic compounds may have been formed, they would not have been formed in the amounts which this experiment produced.
 
snakelord: it doesn't matter to me what you believe, ie.god aliens whatever, im only speaking of the holes in evolutionary theory. i believe a lab *should* be able to create life if life originated on our planet, the only thing is that it doesn't seem to be happening.

defskeptic: exactly, the miller experiment is failed science and it still did not form life. the wonderful thing about life is that it had to have a starting point from non-life, you cant say something is almost life or not quite life yet, it's either life or it's not life. saying that we need to wait years and years for life to appear is just not that simple. life had a distinct starting point from acids sugars and what not, we should be able to recreate that split second of creation.
 
snakelord: it doesn't matter to me what you believe, ie.god aliens whatever, im only speaking of the holes in evolutionary theory. i believe a lab *should* be able to create life if life originated on our planet, the only thing is that it doesn't seem to be happening.

Why *should* they be able to? If you go in context with the belief in the evolutionary scale of the earth you would see things do not happen overnight. You're looking at, (in theory), millions, if not billions, of years for things to progress. If you think someone should be able to recreate any of that in a test tube you're kinda asking too much. That's like someone telling you to go and prove god exists. If god exists surely you *should* be able to prove it by now? And yet throughout the thousands of years it still has not one shred of evidence to show fact. Does that instantly mean it's garbage?
 
there is a jump from non-life to life, that doesn't take millions of years, it takes a split second. getting everything in the right place, having the right conditions, and having a catalyst for creation all take millions if not billions of years to come together. however in a lab they all come together in a beaker, therefore it should not be so hard to create life.
 
there is a jump from non-life to life, that doesn't take millions of years, it takes a split second.

You were there? you can give proof that it takes but a second? Man even in the bible it took god ages- do not forget one day is a thousand days to him. Either way i can't see one sign of evidence that suggests non-life to life takes a 'split second'

getting everything in the right place, having the right conditions, and having a catalyst for creation all take millions if not billions of years to come together. however in a lab they all come together in a beaker, therefore it should not be so hard to create life.

Well as an obviously brilliant scientist perhaps you should show them how?
 
ChrisW-

the miller experiment is failed science and it still did not form life

It was not a failure, maybe a failure in the sense that it did not meet your impossible expectations. Miller's experiment showed that organic compounds such as amino acids, which are essential to cellular life, could be made easily under the conditions that scientists believed to be present on the early earth.

Once again for life to form it would take a vast amount of time. Time the lab obviously cannot recreate.

there is a jump from non-life to life, that doesn't take millions of years, it takes a split second.

See it takes a tremendous amount of time for the steps of life to accumulate to get where YOU WANT them to be. The scientists are producing the beginning stages, so to think they can skip all the billions of years of evolutionary process and produce life from a single step is proposterous.

having the right conditions, and having a catalyst for creation all take millions if not billions of years to come together. however in a lab they all come together in a beaker, therefore it should not be so hard to create life.

Once again, why do you think the lab can be able to influence time in such a manner as to condense millions/billions of years to a more appropriate limit? Remember that they only produced one of the very first steps.

The purpose of the experiment was not to go through all the steps in the life creating process, it was conducted to show how amino acids were produced under the conditions present at the onset of life. All the intermediate steps take a long time, thats just the reality of the situation.
 
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