Evidence that God is real

Sarkus said:
If Pi truly is random and infinite then it contains every possible finite combination of digits, and as such it would contain a combination that, when you put into your 5k by 5k picture, would simply be a black image with the words "Hello Quantum Quack".
It would also contain a combination representing the DNA of every person alive, dead, and will ever have lived. Plus the words to the Bible, the Quran, and every image that could possibly ever be conceived, and more.
But then so would every other truly random infinite number sequence.

It would also contain the sphere that Sagan suggested in Contact.
The only problem for those looking is that the chance of finding those things is mathematically zero, even though they do exist (ignoring the issue of whether the infinitesimally small really is equivalent to zero).
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I got a picture of a meat pie, but not able to say beef or lamb

Also no mashed potato or peas

:)
 
Sarkus said:
If Pi truly is random and infinite then it contains every possible finite combination of digits, and as such it would contain a combination that, when you put into your 5k by 5k picture, would simply be a black image with the words "Hello Quantum Quack".
It would also contain a combination representing the DNA of every person alive, dead, and will ever have lived. Plus the words to the Bible, the Quran, and every image that could possibly ever be conceived, and more.
But then so would every other truly random infinite number sequence.
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Exactly my point... well said...
 
Sarkus said:
It would also contain a combination representing the DNA of every person alive, dead, and will ever have lived. Plus the words to the Bible, the Quran, and every image that could possibly ever be conceived, and more.
zero, even though they do exist
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Well, pi would only "contain" those things after being reformed, with some deliberate, directed translation. And thus would only be present by carefully-chosen artifice.

In your example "the DNA of every person alive" - this is not directly encodable using only the digits 0 through 9. In order for some sequence of digits of pi to "be" the DNA of people, a person would have to define a decoding sequence.

For example: 0=H, 1=He,2=Li ... notice that we can only reach 9=Ne before our cypher stops working. We'll need another rule.

No matter what translation rules you develop to convert from digits of pi to any meaningful information, you must develop that set of translation rules.

So, technically, what that means is: there is no information encoded in pi. It depends on how we (arbitrarily) choose to interpret the digits to generate meaning to us.


In the book, Contact, she made a choice to represent the digits as a matrix with sides equal to prime numbers (which she chose) and viewed it in a particular number base (which she chose).
 
DaveC426913 said:
Well, pi would only "contain" those things after being reformed, with some deliberate, directed translation. And thus would only be present by carefully-chosen artifice.

In your example "the DNA of every person alive" - this is not directly encodable using only the digits 0 through 9. In order for some sequence of digits of pi to "be" the DNA of people, a person would have to define a decoding sequence.

For example: 0=H, 1=He,2=Li ... notice that we can only reach 9=Ne before our cypher stops working. We'll need another rule.

No matter what translation rules you develop to convert from digits of pi to any meaningful information, you must develop that set of translation rules.

So, technically, what that means is: there is no information encoded in pi. It depends on how we (arbitrarily) choose to interpret the digits to generate meaning to us.


In the book, Contact, she made a choice to represent the digits as a matrix with sides equal to prime numbers (which she chose) and viewed it in a particular number base (which she chose).
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Absolutely. With an infinite string of randomness you can ultimately (assuming infinite time available) find anything you want with any valid rules (i.e. rules that have a chance of finding) you apply. With DNA it could be a mapping of ACGT to 1 to 4, or 2 to 5, or 3 to 6 etc. Or in binary etc. Every one of those will ultimately be in the infinitely long random string. Pick any method that could possibly find the sequence that you're looking for, and it's in there.

But I fully agree that it's not information - other than being information of the particular number sequence itself in the infinitely long random sequence.

However, if you know in advance the decoding method that someone may look to employ, one could possibly create a coded message that has a reasonable appearance of randomness to anyone not using that method. But of course it wouldn't actually be random. :) But that's a different kettle of tasty foodstuffs.
 
Quantum Quack said:
There is something else to consider with this that also may impress.
If the numbers were truly random then patterns would actually be present randomly... In other words the digital construction that we see actually appears to be "determined" not to have patterns.
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I kind of disagree with that. Nature determines values but does not necessarily put them in any order. Humans discovered these values and codified them in a chronological symbolic ascending order. IOW we created the decimal system, a mathematical pattern which does not exist in nature.
So why would pi seemingly determine a lack of patterns?
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Pi does determine patterns. In fact, Pi can be found in almost every curved pattern aside from circles, measurable to various degrees of accuracy. Maybe it's very versatility demands an infinite adjustment in precision, all the way down to Planck scale.

Perhaps it's the lack of a single defined pattern that allows the application of Pi throughout the universe in a host of patterns.

From Mario Livio; " One writer noted that scientists see Pi on a series of mountain peaks rising from a fog-shrouded valley. They are all connected, but sometimes it is difficult to recognize the connection".

One does not even need a circle to calculate Pi. You can do it by dropping a needle over a set of straight lines. The times the needle crosses a line allows one to calculate Pi. (~64%)

(Start @ 7:20)

Question: Can one create a circle from it's circumference, without using Pi?
 
Michael 345 said:
That movie I vaguely remember but it's not the movie rattling around in my brain
:)
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Actually I meant to cite "Wrath of the Titans" which is a sequel to Clash of the Titans.
Wrath of the Titans takes place a decade after the events of the preceding film as the gods lose control over the imprisoned Titans (thanks to humanity's lack of prayers which also is draining their immortality) and Perseus is called, this time to rescue his father Zeus, overthrow the Titans, and save mankind.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrath_of_the_Titans

Great special effects!!
 
"The evidence of God's sentience can be found in the sentience of Man" ~anon
...or any where sentience is demonstrated... would be my take..
 
Quantum Quack said:
"The evidence of God's sentience can be found in the sentience of Man" ~anon
...or any where sentience is demonstrated... would be my take..
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That's a tautology.

Your conclusion that it's true is contingent on the premise being true.
But the premise has not been granted as true.
 
DaveC426913 said:
That's a tautology.

Your conclusion that it's true is contingent on the premise being true.
But the premise has not been granted as true.
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...and it is un-falsifiable... true...

The premise is not granted as false either...( or why the question to begin with)

Do you have another explanation for the existence mankind's sentience? ( with out resorting to a catch all - God)

BTW the use of the term Tautology I find strange...
Perhaps using a more specific logical fallacy term might be in order...

If not for sentience being a requirement, the term GOD becomes moot. By suggesting that sentience is expressed through man is the only way to progress the discussion. ( re: Pantheistic approach)
 
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Quantum Quack said:
BTW the use of the term Tautology I find strange...
Perhaps using a more specific logical fallacy term might be in order...
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Agree. The logical fallacy is "begging the question"*.

But I find that phrase has become so misused, it is virtually useless.


* an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.
 
Quantum Quack said:
Do you have another explanation for the existence mankind's sentience? ( with out resorting to a catch all - God)
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Yes. Evolution.
Intelligence is one trait that selection has shown to be a survival advantage.

So far.

(It may be that we are experiencing run-away sexual selection, akin to what happened to so many birds whose plumage for attracting a mate has become a survival liability.)
 
Quantum Quack said:
Do you have another explanation for the existence mankind's sentience? ( without resorting to a catchall - God)
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IMO, sentience (sensory experience) itself is not in question.
Sentience is clearly observable in thousands of species, all the way down to the single celled paramecium and slime mold and in plants (photosynthesis). Sensory awareness is not an extraordinary ability.

The seemingly extraordinary ability of motivated intelligence (purpose of action) is the question, but even here we can see almost every evolutionary step represented in the higher orders of species. Some species have much greater sensory processing abilities in certain areas than humans. God or Evolution?

The Pope has conceded that evolution is a proven fact. Why is there still a reluctance to accept the declarations of the ultimate source of knowledge of God?

It is only if you assign something spiritual to the phenomenon of "thought" that something spiritual might be causal. But if we just consider it an evolved refined result in sensory processing of external information by the brain, then the need for an answer to the question becomes moot.
 
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What makes "sentient intelligence" so special in billions of years evolution of biological organisms, if we can already build AI which possess "sentient intelligence" in just a few decades.

Sentience is a result of chemical interactions in the micro tubules of the brain and also found throughout the body, billions of them!!!!!!!!!!!!! In almost all biological species. Quite a network for processing external and internal information. But in principle not especially different from modern computing processes. (Tegmark)
Photosynthesis is a natural computational function.
Photosynthesis is a natural process by which trees and plants use energy from the sun and carbon dioxide from the air to make the food they need to live and grow. By storing carbon above and below the ground, the trees and plants in forests contribute to the production of oxygen as a byproduct of photosynthesis.
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https://oregonforests.org/content/photosynthesis

Is this natural function a computational function? If so its pretty damn smart. Trees that eat carbon dioxide and gather energy from the sun and produce oxygen for nearly all of life on earth to breathe, is close to a naturally evolved pseudo-intelligent computational function, no?
 
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Write4U said:
God exists, therefore ..........:?
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I claim Newton

For every god there is a equal and opposite god

For every bit of matter there is a little bit less anti matter

Oh wait perhaps it should be

For every number of gods there is a little less number of anti gods

Perhaps god is the only surviving god once god / anti god collisions had eliminated the others

After all, all the matter we see is left over from matter / anti matter collisions

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
I claim Newton

For every god there is a equal and opposite god

For every bit of matter there is a little bit less anti matter

Oh wait perhaps it should be

For every number of gods there is a little less number of anti gods

Perhaps god is the only surviving god once god / anti god collisions had eliminated the others

After all, all the matter we see is left over from matter / anti matter collisions

:)
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One thing is sure, the Wars of the Gods have not yet ended.......:(
 
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