I haven't read all the middle of this, just where it began and has come to, so i beg your pardon if it's off the mark. but what if it's life confined to this specific physical existance which is the illusion, and when we are prepared enough we can see through that?
Evidence for a soul?
- Thread starter Cris
- Start date
Whatsherface,
Yes that's OK. I'm not rulling anything out. The issues I see are with those you who say they KNOW there is an afterlife but can't say how they know.
Considering other possibilities that might be currently beyond our ability to detect or observe, make great topics for discussion. Speculation is very differnt from unsupported claims.
Cris
Yes that's OK. I'm not rulling anything out. The issues I see are with those you who say they KNOW there is an afterlife but can't say how they know.
Considering other possibilities that might be currently beyond our ability to detect or observe, make great topics for discussion. Speculation is very differnt from unsupported claims.
Cris
Cris, I understand the value you place on original thought when posting this forum as opposed to simple cut and paste. However, when it comes to religious debate, I have no original thoughts.
Instead I'd like to add these thoughts from Frank Zindler as evidence for a soul.
Frank R. Zindler- "The Probing Mind", February 1985
"The word spirit ·generally a synonym for soul ·comes from the Latin spiritus, and clearly meant 'breath' originally. Spiritual and respiratory both derive from the same root!"
"the Hebrew word neshamah (literally meaning 'breath') is twice rendered as 'spirit', once as 'soul'. The Hebrew-Aramaic word ruach (lit., 'wind') is rendered 240 times as 'spirit', six times as 'mind.' The word nephesh (lit., 'breath') is rendered 'soul' 428 times) 'mind' 15 times, 'ghost' twice, and 'life' 119 times. Turning to the Greek Bible, we find pneuma (lit., 'breath') rendered as 'ghost' 91 times (including the rendering 'Holy Ghost'), 292 times as 'spirit'. The reader will recognize the same root in the word pneumonia, a word referring to a disease of the organs of breath."
"The fact that nearly all words now meaning 'soul', 'spirit', 'life', etc., trace their origins to words meaning 'breath' or 'wind' leads me to conclude that the derived meanings were an outgrowth of the inability of primitive people to solve a basic biological puzzle, namely, what constitutes the difference between a live body and a dead one?"
"To the ancient authors of the Bible ·men who still thought they were living on a flat earth beneath a solid sky (firmament) ·the solution seemed deceptively simple: living things breathe, dead things do not."
"When a man expired (lit., 'breathed out'), his spirit (lit., 'breath') left his body, and he died. When a man sneezed, his spirit was forcefully ejected from his body, and one had to say "God bless you" or make a magical gesture, such as the sign of the cross, very quickly, before evil spirits could come to take over the momentarily spiritually vacant carcass. Demonic "possession" was the result, quite simply, of inhaling one or more of the evil breaths thought to hover in the air around us. For early Christians, the Devil's breath was everywhere."
Instead I'd like to add these thoughts from Frank Zindler as evidence for a soul.
Frank R. Zindler- "The Probing Mind", February 1985
"The word spirit ·generally a synonym for soul ·comes from the Latin spiritus, and clearly meant 'breath' originally. Spiritual and respiratory both derive from the same root!"
"the Hebrew word neshamah (literally meaning 'breath') is twice rendered as 'spirit', once as 'soul'. The Hebrew-Aramaic word ruach (lit., 'wind') is rendered 240 times as 'spirit', six times as 'mind.' The word nephesh (lit., 'breath') is rendered 'soul' 428 times) 'mind' 15 times, 'ghost' twice, and 'life' 119 times. Turning to the Greek Bible, we find pneuma (lit., 'breath') rendered as 'ghost' 91 times (including the rendering 'Holy Ghost'), 292 times as 'spirit'. The reader will recognize the same root in the word pneumonia, a word referring to a disease of the organs of breath."
"The fact that nearly all words now meaning 'soul', 'spirit', 'life', etc., trace their origins to words meaning 'breath' or 'wind' leads me to conclude that the derived meanings were an outgrowth of the inability of primitive people to solve a basic biological puzzle, namely, what constitutes the difference between a live body and a dead one?"
"To the ancient authors of the Bible ·men who still thought they were living on a flat earth beneath a solid sky (firmament) ·the solution seemed deceptively simple: living things breathe, dead things do not."
"When a man expired (lit., 'breathed out'), his spirit (lit., 'breath') left his body, and he died. When a man sneezed, his spirit was forcefully ejected from his body, and one had to say "God bless you" or make a magical gesture, such as the sign of the cross, very quickly, before evil spirits could come to take over the momentarily spiritually vacant carcass. Demonic "possession" was the result, quite simply, of inhaling one or more of the evil breaths thought to hover in the air around us. For early Christians, the Devil's breath was everywhere."
Mind/Reason/Spirit
Mind/Reason
That part of the human being in which thought takes place and perception and decisions to do good, evil, and the like come to expression. A number of terms in the Hebrew Old Testament and Greek New Testament are used for mind/reason, some of which overlap in meaning and others that view the internal person from differing perspectives. The importance of this dimension of human existence can be seen especially in its relation to God and his revelation.
The Old Testament. Basic Difference Between Hebrew and Greek Thought. The Old Testament terms that serve as references to the mind or reason most often (especially "heart, " "spirit, " "soul") are not limited to these meanings, but cover a wide range of ideas as they seek to describe the inward or invisible dimensions of the human being in a holistic manner (characteristic of "Oriental" thought). Thus, a rather limited vocabulary serves different purposes in different contexts, and can refer alternately to the seat of a person's thought and emotional life, the emotions, and more broadly, to the inner person.
The array of terms that figure in the development of the concept of the mind and reason in the Greek-speaking world include a number related to the basic term nous [nou'"] (meaning mind, reason, intellect, understanding, and even perhaps in its broadest sense something like our modern term "worldview"). The phren [frhvn] (mind, understanding) word-group also comes into play.
Developments in the Hebrew Old Testament are not, for lack of such specialized vocabulary, to be thought of as less sophisticated, but rather as closely related to the Hebrew culture, which considered the intellectual and emotional dimensions of human life from the perspective of the whole person: heart, soul, and spirit are not separate parts of the inner person, but each is a reference to the whole inner person and is to be viewed in relation to the body. As a result, the inner thought and knowledge dimension is regarded in close relation to right conduct.
The Heart as the Mind. The Hebrew term "heart" (leb [bel], lebab [b'bel]), in its figurative usage, is the most important term for the inner person. It views the inner person from a number of angles, of which the concern here is its reference to the thought or will of human beings or to the organ of understanding. Thus, "heart" or "to set the heart" means to make up the mind or decide (2 Chron 12:14; Neh 4:6). "Calling to mind" is meant in Deuteronomy 30:1; Isaiah 46:8; 65:17; Jeremiah 3:16; "recalling" is similar (Deut 30:1; Jer 51:50:; Ezek 38:10). Wisdom and understanding are located in the heart (1 Kings 3:12; Prov 16:23) and perceived with the heart (Prov 18:15; 22:17; 8:16). Moreover, it is the heart that plans or purposes to act (Prov 16:1,9). God's "mind" is sometimes described this way (Jer 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). Decisions of a moral nature take place in the heart (Gen 20:5; Job 11:13). This being the case, evil will also be manifested in the heart, where decisions to disobey and rebel take place (Jer 17:9). A heart/mind can be perverse and therefore incapable of apprehending truth and wisdom (Prov 10:20; 11:20; 12:8; 17:16, 20). The heart is also the place where deception occurs (Isa 44:20). "Heart" thus serves as a reference to the person as a thinking, perceiving, and willing being, bringing together the ideas of knowledge, understanding, and will.
The Spirit as the Mind. The Hebrew term for spirit (ruah [jWr]) depicts the inner person from the perspectives of the mind, understanding, and reason on a number of occasions (with various Greek equivalents). Exodus 28:3 and 1 Chronicles 28:12 view the human mind in relation to skills and planning. Ezekiel 11:5 and 20:32 have spirit as a reference to the conscious thoughts of a man. Daniel 5:20 has the mind-set or determination of the will in view in this description of Nebuchadnezzar: "his heart [spirit] became arrogant and hardened with pride." In this case, it is a mind set against God in rebellion.
The Soul as the Mind and Reason. Another term for the inner person that can refer to the intellectual or mental dimension of life is "soul" (nepes [v,p,n]). In the well-known command of Deuteronomy 6:5, the soul, along with the heart, contributes to a description of the whole inner person as a thinking, knowing, and willing force, which must decide to serve God (cf. 1 Chron 22:19; 28:9). "Soul" describes a man from the perspective of the choices he makes in Deuteronomy 18:6, and as a thinking, inquiring being (Eccl 7:28). The thought, counsel, or mind of God is also described with the Hebrew term "soul" in 1 Samuel 2:35. The same term can stand for one's wish or determination (2 Kings 9:15).
The New Testament. In the New Testament the nous word-group tends to be concentrated in the Pauline writings. Paul seems to have been the main pioneer in exploring this Greek region of thought for viable expressions with which to carry on his dialogue. We will concentrate our attention on terms that speak specifically of the mind and reasons (nous, phronesis, and related terms). While this line of description was of special interest to Paul and he develops it beyond the stage reached in the Old Testament, his thought corresponds closely with the Old Testament.
Primarily through the nous [nou'"] word-group, the New Testament employs a broad concept of the mind. It includes one's "worldview" or outlook and the way in which it influences perception. But the particular perspective can vary; it extends to ideas such as disposition and inner orientation or moral inclination (Rom 1:28; Eph 4:17; Col 2:18; 1 Tim 6:5; Titus 1:15), or an organ that determines a course of action (Rom 7:23) or the state (or act) of understanding (Luke 24:45; 1 Cor 14:14-15, 19; Php 4:7; 2 Thess 2:2; Rev 13:18; 17:9). The related verb (noeo [noievw]) and noun (noema [novhma]) describe the mind in action (thinking and discerning) and the result (thoughts).
The Mind of Unbelief. One dominant usage of "mind" (in certain contexts or with appropriate modifiers) is to describe a way of thinking or entire understanding that stands in opposition to God. Romans 1:28 and Ephesians 4:17-18 have the unbeliever in view. The "mind" of the one who does not know God is in a state of futility and debasement, and by implication this state, though reversible, exists because of refusal to acknowledge God or at a time prior to coming to that knowledge that brings renewal. This set of the mind is hostile to God (see Rom 8:7; with phronema [frovnhma] and Col 1:21; with dianoia [diavnoia] ). Paul indicates that this condition is the result of "the god of this age, " who has blinded the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor 4:4; the mind here [with noemata] conceived of as a framework resulting from the thought process ). Similarly, the false teacher's mind is described variously as "fleshly" (Col 2:18), depraved (1 Tim 6:5), and corrupt (2 Tim 3:8; Titus 1:15). In this case, the condition of the mind is determined by decisions about the orthodox apostolic doctrine; rejection of God's Word renders the mind or the complete worldview (perception of reality or of God's will) ineffective.
This same unbelieving mind is also described with the negatives, anoia [a [noia] meaning the absence of understanding, and anoetos [ajnovhto"], meaning foolish. In the New Testament these conditions are not innocent but culpable. Thus the failure to understand Jesus' ministry on the Sabbath and the mistakes of false teachers each stem from a basic ignorance related to rebellion against God (Luke 6:11; 2 Tim 3:9). The foolish lack spiritual understanding (Luke 24:25; Gal 3:1, 3; cf. Rom 1:14).
Renewal of the Mind. Two passages indicate that the mind must be renewed in order to conform to or apprehend the will of God. Romans 12:2 is the classic statement: "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is." Ephesians 4:23 ("be made new in the attitude of your minds") is similar in thrust. In each case, the issue is the discernment of God's will over and against an opposing and imposing mind-set. Renewal, which is related to conversion and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9-11; Col 3:10), is the prerequisite for reaching an understanding of God's will.
The Mind of Belief. There is, then, a "renewed" or Christian mind: "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16). Here the regenerate mind or mind of the Christian is described in terms of a correct understanding of the things and plans of God. It is a worldview in synchronization with God's will. Second Thessalonians 2:2 may have something like a correct Christian understanding in view as well: Paul encourages the Thessalonian believers not to allow their understanding to be shaken by false reports that the day of the Lord is already here. Revelation 13:18 uses mind in the sense of "having the mind of a believer, " that is, able to discern the times (cf. 17:9).
The Mind as the Faculty of Understanding and Perceiving. Underlying the notion of a Christian "mind" is the more basic tenet that understanding takes place through the faculty or operation of the mind. This in turn leads to another corollary: it is with the mind that God can and must be apprehended (cf. Philo, Virt. 57). The mind as one's organ of spiritual consciousness is meant to be pure (2 Peter 3:1; cf. Test. Benj. 6:5), but the opposite possibility exists (Col 1:21). Scripture is understood through the mind, though it requires "opening" for this to take place (Luke 24:45). Similarly, Paul contrasts a message or prayer given through tongues, which pertains to the spirit, and the engagement of the mind, which suggests that the mind pertains to consciousness and a way of thinking that corresponds to human language (1 Cor 14:14-15,19).
The human mind and volition play a dominant role in responding to God. Thus Jesus affirms the relevance of Deuteronomy 6:5: "love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Matt 22:37). If understanding occurs in the mind, it is not surprising that Paul implies that it is with the mind, not the flesh, that God is served (Rom 7:23,25). He means that the relationship to God and service or worship involve a complete commitment and act of human volition. The entire mind/way of thinking must be inclined toward God and in harmony with him (2 Cor 10:5), and this requires knowing that, left to itself, it tends in another direction.
In another context, and with another Greek term (phroneo [fronevw], phronema [frovnhma]), Paul relates the Christian understanding/mind to the Holy Spirit. Within the argument of Romans, chapter 8 takes up the contrast between the law/flesh/death and Spirit/life. Here, the "mind controlled by the Spirit" refers to the renewed way of thinking or renewed worldview. It inclines toward God. But the "mind controlled by the sinful nature" is that same determined rejection of God's revelation mentioned in Romans 1:28.
From the human perspective, the spiritual life must be sustained by the conscious decision to maintain communication with and commitment to God. Thus, in a very real sense willing to act, thinking, and deciding all come under the category of the human power of the mind. People must make a decision about God, and volition is clearly involved. And though renewal or enlightenment is required for this power to be used effectively, and the other possibility clearly exists, it remains the human responsibility to make the godly decision.
Summary. Throughout both the Old and New Testaments, the mind/reason is alternatively the thought system and the faculty of conscious reflection and perception. It is with the mind that decisions are made, whether moral or amoral in nature. It is with the mind that one chooses to accept God and obey his commandments, or to reject him and rebel against him. The New Testament sheds additional light on the concept of the mind by relating its condition directly to conversion. Renewal (resulting from the Spirit's work in conversion) makes apprehension and acceptance of God's will possible. Before renewal occurs, futility and blindness characterize the human mind (faculty of perception) and the broader description is "ignorance" or "folly." Especially in the Pastoral Epistles, the relation between the condition of the mind and the apprehension of and/or commitment to correct doctrine is emphasized. What is at stake in Christian living and mission is, then, very much the human mind.
What must not be missed in the biblical development of the mind concept is the role of human volition that is implied in the relationship between God and human beings. While it is true that renewal is necessary, nowhere does this remove the responsibility from the human being to decide at each point to believe, and keep believing God. Through the mind concept, the delicate (though mysterious) balance between divine sovereignty and human responsibility is maintained. God may make apprehension of his revelation possible, but the human must decide to employ the mind to so apprehend it.
Truth, Jonathan
Mind/Reason
That part of the human being in which thought takes place and perception and decisions to do good, evil, and the like come to expression. A number of terms in the Hebrew Old Testament and Greek New Testament are used for mind/reason, some of which overlap in meaning and others that view the internal person from differing perspectives. The importance of this dimension of human existence can be seen especially in its relation to God and his revelation.
The Old Testament. Basic Difference Between Hebrew and Greek Thought. The Old Testament terms that serve as references to the mind or reason most often (especially "heart, " "spirit, " "soul") are not limited to these meanings, but cover a wide range of ideas as they seek to describe the inward or invisible dimensions of the human being in a holistic manner (characteristic of "Oriental" thought). Thus, a rather limited vocabulary serves different purposes in different contexts, and can refer alternately to the seat of a person's thought and emotional life, the emotions, and more broadly, to the inner person.
The array of terms that figure in the development of the concept of the mind and reason in the Greek-speaking world include a number related to the basic term nous [nou'"] (meaning mind, reason, intellect, understanding, and even perhaps in its broadest sense something like our modern term "worldview"). The phren [frhvn] (mind, understanding) word-group also comes into play.
Developments in the Hebrew Old Testament are not, for lack of such specialized vocabulary, to be thought of as less sophisticated, but rather as closely related to the Hebrew culture, which considered the intellectual and emotional dimensions of human life from the perspective of the whole person: heart, soul, and spirit are not separate parts of the inner person, but each is a reference to the whole inner person and is to be viewed in relation to the body. As a result, the inner thought and knowledge dimension is regarded in close relation to right conduct.
The Heart as the Mind. The Hebrew term "heart" (leb [bel], lebab [b'bel]), in its figurative usage, is the most important term for the inner person. It views the inner person from a number of angles, of which the concern here is its reference to the thought or will of human beings or to the organ of understanding. Thus, "heart" or "to set the heart" means to make up the mind or decide (2 Chron 12:14; Neh 4:6). "Calling to mind" is meant in Deuteronomy 30:1; Isaiah 46:8; 65:17; Jeremiah 3:16; "recalling" is similar (Deut 30:1; Jer 51:50:; Ezek 38:10). Wisdom and understanding are located in the heart (1 Kings 3:12; Prov 16:23) and perceived with the heart (Prov 18:15; 22:17; 8:16). Moreover, it is the heart that plans or purposes to act (Prov 16:1,9). God's "mind" is sometimes described this way (Jer 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). Decisions of a moral nature take place in the heart (Gen 20:5; Job 11:13). This being the case, evil will also be manifested in the heart, where decisions to disobey and rebel take place (Jer 17:9). A heart/mind can be perverse and therefore incapable of apprehending truth and wisdom (Prov 10:20; 11:20; 12:8; 17:16, 20). The heart is also the place where deception occurs (Isa 44:20). "Heart" thus serves as a reference to the person as a thinking, perceiving, and willing being, bringing together the ideas of knowledge, understanding, and will.
The Spirit as the Mind. The Hebrew term for spirit (ruah [jWr]) depicts the inner person from the perspectives of the mind, understanding, and reason on a number of occasions (with various Greek equivalents). Exodus 28:3 and 1 Chronicles 28:12 view the human mind in relation to skills and planning. Ezekiel 11:5 and 20:32 have spirit as a reference to the conscious thoughts of a man. Daniel 5:20 has the mind-set or determination of the will in view in this description of Nebuchadnezzar: "his heart [spirit] became arrogant and hardened with pride." In this case, it is a mind set against God in rebellion.
The Soul as the Mind and Reason. Another term for the inner person that can refer to the intellectual or mental dimension of life is "soul" (nepes [v,p,n]). In the well-known command of Deuteronomy 6:5, the soul, along with the heart, contributes to a description of the whole inner person as a thinking, knowing, and willing force, which must decide to serve God (cf. 1 Chron 22:19; 28:9). "Soul" describes a man from the perspective of the choices he makes in Deuteronomy 18:6, and as a thinking, inquiring being (Eccl 7:28). The thought, counsel, or mind of God is also described with the Hebrew term "soul" in 1 Samuel 2:35. The same term can stand for one's wish or determination (2 Kings 9:15).
The New Testament. In the New Testament the nous word-group tends to be concentrated in the Pauline writings. Paul seems to have been the main pioneer in exploring this Greek region of thought for viable expressions with which to carry on his dialogue. We will concentrate our attention on terms that speak specifically of the mind and reasons (nous, phronesis, and related terms). While this line of description was of special interest to Paul and he develops it beyond the stage reached in the Old Testament, his thought corresponds closely with the Old Testament.
Primarily through the nous [nou'"] word-group, the New Testament employs a broad concept of the mind. It includes one's "worldview" or outlook and the way in which it influences perception. But the particular perspective can vary; it extends to ideas such as disposition and inner orientation or moral inclination (Rom 1:28; Eph 4:17; Col 2:18; 1 Tim 6:5; Titus 1:15), or an organ that determines a course of action (Rom 7:23) or the state (or act) of understanding (Luke 24:45; 1 Cor 14:14-15, 19; Php 4:7; 2 Thess 2:2; Rev 13:18; 17:9). The related verb (noeo [noievw]) and noun (noema [novhma]) describe the mind in action (thinking and discerning) and the result (thoughts).
The Mind of Unbelief. One dominant usage of "mind" (in certain contexts or with appropriate modifiers) is to describe a way of thinking or entire understanding that stands in opposition to God. Romans 1:28 and Ephesians 4:17-18 have the unbeliever in view. The "mind" of the one who does not know God is in a state of futility and debasement, and by implication this state, though reversible, exists because of refusal to acknowledge God or at a time prior to coming to that knowledge that brings renewal. This set of the mind is hostile to God (see Rom 8:7; with phronema [frovnhma] and Col 1:21; with dianoia [diavnoia] ). Paul indicates that this condition is the result of "the god of this age, " who has blinded the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor 4:4; the mind here [with noemata] conceived of as a framework resulting from the thought process ). Similarly, the false teacher's mind is described variously as "fleshly" (Col 2:18), depraved (1 Tim 6:5), and corrupt (2 Tim 3:8; Titus 1:15). In this case, the condition of the mind is determined by decisions about the orthodox apostolic doctrine; rejection of God's Word renders the mind or the complete worldview (perception of reality or of God's will) ineffective.
This same unbelieving mind is also described with the negatives, anoia [a [noia] meaning the absence of understanding, and anoetos [ajnovhto"], meaning foolish. In the New Testament these conditions are not innocent but culpable. Thus the failure to understand Jesus' ministry on the Sabbath and the mistakes of false teachers each stem from a basic ignorance related to rebellion against God (Luke 6:11; 2 Tim 3:9). The foolish lack spiritual understanding (Luke 24:25; Gal 3:1, 3; cf. Rom 1:14).
Renewal of the Mind. Two passages indicate that the mind must be renewed in order to conform to or apprehend the will of God. Romans 12:2 is the classic statement: "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is." Ephesians 4:23 ("be made new in the attitude of your minds") is similar in thrust. In each case, the issue is the discernment of God's will over and against an opposing and imposing mind-set. Renewal, which is related to conversion and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9-11; Col 3:10), is the prerequisite for reaching an understanding of God's will.
The Mind of Belief. There is, then, a "renewed" or Christian mind: "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16). Here the regenerate mind or mind of the Christian is described in terms of a correct understanding of the things and plans of God. It is a worldview in synchronization with God's will. Second Thessalonians 2:2 may have something like a correct Christian understanding in view as well: Paul encourages the Thessalonian believers not to allow their understanding to be shaken by false reports that the day of the Lord is already here. Revelation 13:18 uses mind in the sense of "having the mind of a believer, " that is, able to discern the times (cf. 17:9).
The Mind as the Faculty of Understanding and Perceiving. Underlying the notion of a Christian "mind" is the more basic tenet that understanding takes place through the faculty or operation of the mind. This in turn leads to another corollary: it is with the mind that God can and must be apprehended (cf. Philo, Virt. 57). The mind as one's organ of spiritual consciousness is meant to be pure (2 Peter 3:1; cf. Test. Benj. 6:5), but the opposite possibility exists (Col 1:21). Scripture is understood through the mind, though it requires "opening" for this to take place (Luke 24:45). Similarly, Paul contrasts a message or prayer given through tongues, which pertains to the spirit, and the engagement of the mind, which suggests that the mind pertains to consciousness and a way of thinking that corresponds to human language (1 Cor 14:14-15,19).
The human mind and volition play a dominant role in responding to God. Thus Jesus affirms the relevance of Deuteronomy 6:5: "love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Matt 22:37). If understanding occurs in the mind, it is not surprising that Paul implies that it is with the mind, not the flesh, that God is served (Rom 7:23,25). He means that the relationship to God and service or worship involve a complete commitment and act of human volition. The entire mind/way of thinking must be inclined toward God and in harmony with him (2 Cor 10:5), and this requires knowing that, left to itself, it tends in another direction.
In another context, and with another Greek term (phroneo [fronevw], phronema [frovnhma]), Paul relates the Christian understanding/mind to the Holy Spirit. Within the argument of Romans, chapter 8 takes up the contrast between the law/flesh/death and Spirit/life. Here, the "mind controlled by the Spirit" refers to the renewed way of thinking or renewed worldview. It inclines toward God. But the "mind controlled by the sinful nature" is that same determined rejection of God's revelation mentioned in Romans 1:28.
From the human perspective, the spiritual life must be sustained by the conscious decision to maintain communication with and commitment to God. Thus, in a very real sense willing to act, thinking, and deciding all come under the category of the human power of the mind. People must make a decision about God, and volition is clearly involved. And though renewal or enlightenment is required for this power to be used effectively, and the other possibility clearly exists, it remains the human responsibility to make the godly decision.
Summary. Throughout both the Old and New Testaments, the mind/reason is alternatively the thought system and the faculty of conscious reflection and perception. It is with the mind that decisions are made, whether moral or amoral in nature. It is with the mind that one chooses to accept God and obey his commandments, or to reject him and rebel against him. The New Testament sheds additional light on the concept of the mind by relating its condition directly to conversion. Renewal (resulting from the Spirit's work in conversion) makes apprehension and acceptance of God's will possible. Before renewal occurs, futility and blindness characterize the human mind (faculty of perception) and the broader description is "ignorance" or "folly." Especially in the Pastoral Epistles, the relation between the condition of the mind and the apprehension of and/or commitment to correct doctrine is emphasized. What is at stake in Christian living and mission is, then, very much the human mind.
What must not be missed in the biblical development of the mind concept is the role of human volition that is implied in the relationship between God and human beings. While it is true that renewal is necessary, nowhere does this remove the responsibility from the human being to decide at each point to believe, and keep believing God. Through the mind concept, the delicate (though mysterious) balance between divine sovereignty and human responsibility is maintained. God may make apprehension of his revelation possible, but the human must decide to employ the mind to so apprehend it.
Truth, Jonathan
Oh And By The Way Of This Discussion
Oh and by the way of this discussion, the spirit is inseparable from religion, for that is where the concept of spirit in the man originated. Especially because God is the giver of the spirit. Now determining that Christianity is the only one true religion of God is another topic, which is very important, for Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. You see the word became man and dwelt among us, God's word, by which all existence is created, which includes our galaxy, and earth. So it is only logical, Jesus is God and therefore He is the only way to God, simply besides that because Jesus Himself said that He is the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by Him, for He and the Father are one, and no other.
Truth, Jonathan
Oh and by the way of this discussion, the spirit is inseparable from religion, for that is where the concept of spirit in the man originated. Especially because God is the giver of the spirit. Now determining that Christianity is the only one true religion of God is another topic, which is very important, for Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. You see the word became man and dwelt among us, God's word, by which all existence is created, which includes our galaxy, and earth. So it is only logical, Jesus is God and therefore He is the only way to God, simply besides that because Jesus Himself said that He is the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by Him, for He and the Father are one, and no other.
Truth, Jonathan
Re: Oh And By The Way Of This Discussion
Dude, you've got the cart before the horse. Religion is man's attempt to explain spirit, and spiritual matters. If there was no prior concept of spirit, religion could not have come about. Spirit first, then religion. Not the other way around.
Dude, you've got the cart before the horse. Religion is man's attempt to explain spirit, and spiritual matters. If there was no prior concept of spirit, religion could not have come about. Spirit first, then religion. Not the other way around.
Jonathan:
Firstoff, welcome to Sciforums. Keep your hands and feet inside the car at all times and do not attempt to touch the dancers.
Sorry but there are problems with the concept of the Trinity:
Firstoff, you'd have to prove the existance of any God, and no-one ever has.
Secondly, was Jesus God? The Bible contradicts itself here....see John 14:28, where Jesus says that:
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
And 1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
And does not Deuteronomy 6:4 say that
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"
Which contradicts 1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
So, what, three is one? One is three? 1+1+1=1? What the hell is going on?
Firstoff, welcome to Sciforums. Keep your hands and feet inside the car at all times and do not attempt to touch the dancers.
Sorry but there are problems with the concept of the Trinity:
Firstoff, you'd have to prove the existance of any God, and no-one ever has.
Secondly, was Jesus God? The Bible contradicts itself here....see John 14:28, where Jesus says that:
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
And 1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
And does not Deuteronomy 6:4 say that
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"
Which contradicts 1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
So, what, three is one? One is three? 1+1+1=1? What the hell is going on?
Re: Oh And By The Way Of This Discussion
The spirit/mind/soul is part of the body, separable at death whereas the religion is man made - nothing more nothing less. The difference between a "non believer" and a "believer" is that a believer has to use the bible to quote from as he/she has not a mind of their own whereas the non believer uses something far more profound, original and meaningful - logic!!
The spirit/mind/soul is part of the body, separable at death whereas the religion is man made - nothing more nothing less. The difference between a "non believer" and a "believer" is that a believer has to use the bible to quote from as he/she has not a mind of their own whereas the non believer uses something far more profound, original and meaningful - logic!!
pretty weak evidence
First of all, when you are clinically dead, it doesn't necessarilly mean your brain has stopped functioning. It is impossible to start the brain back up again once it stopped, and I have never heard of people actually 'thinking' while they're dead. Going on trips? Yes. If you want to find out what it's like to have a NDE, smoke some weed, because that's essentially all it is. Bloodflow to the brain is cut off, causing neurons to release their dopamine (similar to narcotics, and this is what makes drugs so fun) stores, firing at random. This gives the person a sense of overwhelming euphoria, and it can only be explained as an act of god. Also, the light at the end of the tunnle? Again, there are more neurons in the center of the eye than the outside, so they remain working longer. Also, the pupil dialates, making everything seem bright, just like marijuana. Talk to some druggies, or people who have been through extremely harsh G-forces, they'll tell you exactly what heaven is like. Time is also slowed, so the high drug levels in their brain may make it seem that they have been thinking for minutes, even hours, when they have only been thinking a couple seconds, and would think that they were thinking <I>while</I> they were dead instead of after. I remember being on a rollercoaster through the stars when I was knocked out.
There is no structure in the brain to house a soul. If it is undetectable, then it can't interact with the brain at all.
Also, don't you think it is more likely that 4 out of 63 people lied, or suffered brain damage, instead of there really being this spirit that there is no need for (we could work just as well without. After all, animals do, and if you say they have spirits, where will this end, amoeba?) and has never been detected? Until you proove god, you can't proove a soul, so where else did it come from, evolution? What pourpos does it serve in terms of a successful species? How could it evolve from a form of matter we can't even interact with?
First of all, when you are clinically dead, it doesn't necessarilly mean your brain has stopped functioning. It is impossible to start the brain back up again once it stopped, and I have never heard of people actually 'thinking' while they're dead. Going on trips? Yes. If you want to find out what it's like to have a NDE, smoke some weed, because that's essentially all it is. Bloodflow to the brain is cut off, causing neurons to release their dopamine (similar to narcotics, and this is what makes drugs so fun) stores, firing at random. This gives the person a sense of overwhelming euphoria, and it can only be explained as an act of god. Also, the light at the end of the tunnle? Again, there are more neurons in the center of the eye than the outside, so they remain working longer. Also, the pupil dialates, making everything seem bright, just like marijuana. Talk to some druggies, or people who have been through extremely harsh G-forces, they'll tell you exactly what heaven is like. Time is also slowed, so the high drug levels in their brain may make it seem that they have been thinking for minutes, even hours, when they have only been thinking a couple seconds, and would think that they were thinking <I>while</I> they were dead instead of after. I remember being on a rollercoaster through the stars when I was knocked out.
There is no structure in the brain to house a soul. If it is undetectable, then it can't interact with the brain at all.
Also, don't you think it is more likely that 4 out of 63 people lied, or suffered brain damage, instead of there really being this spirit that there is no need for (we could work just as well without. After all, animals do, and if you say they have spirits, where will this end, amoeba?) and has never been detected? Until you proove god, you can't proove a soul, so where else did it come from, evolution? What pourpos does it serve in terms of a successful species? How could it evolve from a form of matter we can't even interact with?
Question in multiple choice form
Let me ask all in this debate a question. For the sake of this question, the subject will be given a name, let his name be Mark. Ok now, if Mark were to die and be carried away to the morge by doctors, how would you describe it?
Pick an answer, a or b?
a.) The doctors took Mark to the morge.
b.) The doctors took Mark's body to the morge.
Please, in replying, answer the question, thank you.
Truth, Jonathan
Let me ask all in this debate a question. For the sake of this question, the subject will be given a name, let his name be Mark. Ok now, if Mark were to die and be carried away to the morge by doctors, how would you describe it?
Pick an answer, a or b?
a.) The doctors took Mark to the morge.
b.) The doctors took Mark's body to the morge.
Please, in replying, answer the question, thank you.
Truth, Jonathan
Light excels darkness
Wisdom excels folly as far as light excels darkness.
Let me ask another question. If I were to put before you a choice of going to Heaven or hell, that is, the hell in the Holy Bible, which would you choose?
Oh and a few more questions.
What was your childhood like?
Have you ever known God?
Have you ever been baptized and experienced the new birth, having no sin, becoming a new creation under the blood of Jesus Christ?
Oh, and do you know that the earth loses half of it's atmospheric pressure every 1,400 years? This means that the earth is very young, because no life would be able to live on such a dense planet. And this also means that dinosaurs did not die by a meteor, but they died because of the lack of atmospheric pressure. You see, when the atmospheric pressure decreases, the level of oxygen decreases, and well, with dinosaurs this is very bad because they had very small lungs compared to their bodies. Hence, dinosaurs died over a period of time through lack of oxygen. Also, did you not know that science and NASA confirms the Bible everyday with new discoveries matching the truths in the Bible? One of the many truths in the Word of God confirmed: That in the Bible in the book of Job, when God was speaking to Job, He mentioned how in the beginning the stars sang together. Well, NASA has found that the stars do have symphonic sounds proceeding from them. And in the dense atmosphere back then, the sound (symphonic sound) from the stars would have been more clear.
P.S. Just another helpful discovery for your life if you listen to rock music or if you do not. Did you know that in playing symphonic sounds to a seed, scientists have been able to germinate it in as little as one night? And that distorted sounds as those, which come from rock music, cause the seeds growth to decrease. This affect is the same to the human mind and it's progress. Oh and the Bible also relates us to seeds, how our root must be found in good soil, meaning we must have a good understanding of the Word of God and obey it, which is the way of light excelling darkness.
God’s Spoken Word. God: The perfect, infinite, only wise God of all existence.
Isaiah 5:20, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
5:24, “Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame * * consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.”
Truth, Jonathan
Wisdom excels folly as far as light excels darkness.
Let me ask another question. If I were to put before you a choice of going to Heaven or hell, that is, the hell in the Holy Bible, which would you choose?
Oh and a few more questions.
What was your childhood like?
Have you ever known God?
Have you ever been baptized and experienced the new birth, having no sin, becoming a new creation under the blood of Jesus Christ?
Oh, and do you know that the earth loses half of it's atmospheric pressure every 1,400 years? This means that the earth is very young, because no life would be able to live on such a dense planet. And this also means that dinosaurs did not die by a meteor, but they died because of the lack of atmospheric pressure. You see, when the atmospheric pressure decreases, the level of oxygen decreases, and well, with dinosaurs this is very bad because they had very small lungs compared to their bodies. Hence, dinosaurs died over a period of time through lack of oxygen. Also, did you not know that science and NASA confirms the Bible everyday with new discoveries matching the truths in the Bible? One of the many truths in the Word of God confirmed: That in the Bible in the book of Job, when God was speaking to Job, He mentioned how in the beginning the stars sang together. Well, NASA has found that the stars do have symphonic sounds proceeding from them. And in the dense atmosphere back then, the sound (symphonic sound) from the stars would have been more clear.
P.S. Just another helpful discovery for your life if you listen to rock music or if you do not. Did you know that in playing symphonic sounds to a seed, scientists have been able to germinate it in as little as one night? And that distorted sounds as those, which come from rock music, cause the seeds growth to decrease. This affect is the same to the human mind and it's progress. Oh and the Bible also relates us to seeds, how our root must be found in good soil, meaning we must have a good understanding of the Word of God and obey it, which is the way of light excelling darkness.
God’s Spoken Word. God: The perfect, infinite, only wise God of all existence.
Isaiah 5:20, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
5:24, “Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame * * consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.”
Truth, Jonathan
"Let me ask another question. If I were to put before you a choice of going to Heaven or hell, that is, the hell in the Holy Bible, which would you choose?"
Outer darkness....wailing and gnashing of teeth....that one?
Probably not.
Or the one with "rock music, athiestic sluts and illegal narcotics" (rough quote, sorry Tyler)
Hell yeah!
"What was your childhood like?"
I was grown in a lab.
"Have you ever known God?"
Nope.
"Have you ever been baptized and experienced the new birth, having no sin, becoming a new creation under the blood of Jesus Christ?"
Nope.
"Oh, and do you know that the earth loses half of it's atmospheric pressure every 1,400 years?"
No it dosen't. Source?
"Also, did you not know that science and NASA confirms the Bible everyday with new discoveries matching the truths in the Bible? One of the many truths in the Word of God confirmed: That in the Bible in the book of Job, when God was speaking to Job, He mentioned how in the beginning the stars sang together. Well, NASA has found that the stars do have symphonic sounds proceeding from them. And in the dense atmosphere back then, the sound (symphonic sound) from the stars would have been more clear. "
Source?
" And that distorted sounds as those, which come from rock music, cause the seeds growth to decrease. This affect is the same to the human mind and it's progress. "
Whoa whoa whoa! Are you saying that I am a plant?
In the words of Oliver North:
"I AM NOT A POTTED PLANT!"
Outer darkness....wailing and gnashing of teeth....that one?
Probably not.
Or the one with "rock music, athiestic sluts and illegal narcotics" (rough quote, sorry Tyler)
Hell yeah!
"What was your childhood like?"
I was grown in a lab.
"Have you ever known God?"
Nope.
"Have you ever been baptized and experienced the new birth, having no sin, becoming a new creation under the blood of Jesus Christ?"
Nope.
"Oh, and do you know that the earth loses half of it's atmospheric pressure every 1,400 years?"
No it dosen't. Source?
"Also, did you not know that science and NASA confirms the Bible everyday with new discoveries matching the truths in the Bible? One of the many truths in the Word of God confirmed: That in the Bible in the book of Job, when God was speaking to Job, He mentioned how in the beginning the stars sang together. Well, NASA has found that the stars do have symphonic sounds proceeding from them. And in the dense atmosphere back then, the sound (symphonic sound) from the stars would have been more clear. "
Source?
" And that distorted sounds as those, which come from rock music, cause the seeds growth to decrease. This affect is the same to the human mind and it's progress. "
Whoa whoa whoa! Are you saying that I am a plant?
In the words of Oliver North:
"I AM NOT A POTTED PLANT!"
Gotcha
Oh, so you like Albert Camus and his quotes do you?
Well, here is another one of his quotes.
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.
Albert Camus
Truth, Jonathan
Oh, so you like Albert Camus and his quotes do you?
Well, here is another one of his quotes.
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.
Albert Camus
Truth, Jonathan
Jonathan:
"Oh, so you like Albert Camus and his quotes do you?"
I adore Camus. Camus was a genius. Camus was a hottie. I would sleep with Camus if he was alive.
But I'm an athiest. Camus was an agnostic.
*Shrugs*
I could get over that, though.
Say, you never responded to my post.
*Sulks*
"Oh, so you like Albert Camus and his quotes do you?"
I adore Camus. Camus was a genius. Camus was a hottie. I would sleep with Camus if he was alive.
But I'm an athiest. Camus was an agnostic.
*Shrugs*
I could get over that, though.
Say, you never responded to my post.
*Sulks*
Life
Will you allow me to help you? Will you allow me to help you find your purpose for existing? Will you allow me to help you find true peace, joy, love, happiness, wisdom, etc.? Will you allow me to help you find a good gift? Will you allow me to help you find the infinite God who chose to create you? What greater a purpose than to be created by the only infinite God, creator of all things that are, and nothing is aside from Him. What a life, to have no purpose, supposing a lie that your whole life is an accident. Would you not want to know that your life is the product of an infinitely wise God, the only potentate? Would you not want to taste of true righteousness? Would you not want to taste of pure life? Oh it is bliss, it is God, God is life. Eternity, think about it, never, never, never ending, never, ever, ending, to continue forever. Heaven!!!!!!! It is not out of your reach; Jesus came for you, to save you from the hold of death. He created you to save you from sin. He created you to help you choose Him with the freewill gift He has given you. Choose life : )
Truth, Jonathan
Will you allow me to help you? Will you allow me to help you find your purpose for existing? Will you allow me to help you find true peace, joy, love, happiness, wisdom, etc.? Will you allow me to help you find a good gift? Will you allow me to help you find the infinite God who chose to create you? What greater a purpose than to be created by the only infinite God, creator of all things that are, and nothing is aside from Him. What a life, to have no purpose, supposing a lie that your whole life is an accident. Would you not want to know that your life is the product of an infinitely wise God, the only potentate? Would you not want to taste of true righteousness? Would you not want to taste of pure life? Oh it is bliss, it is God, God is life. Eternity, think about it, never, never, never ending, never, ever, ending, to continue forever. Heaven!!!!!!! It is not out of your reach; Jesus came for you, to save you from the hold of death. He created you to save you from sin. He created you to help you choose Him with the freewill gift He has given you. Choose life : )
Truth, Jonathan
Jonathan:
"Will you allow me to help you?"
Certainly. Come by tomorrow at 5:30 and help me memorize SAT words.
Oh wait, tomorrow's friday. I'll be - I'll be studying. Damn, I'm pathetic.
"Will you allow me to help you find your purpose for existing?"
There is no purpose. I was born, complete accident, I shall die, complete inevitability.
But, why do you say differntly? Have you any evidence?
"Will you allow me to help you?"
Certainly. Come by tomorrow at 5:30 and help me memorize SAT words.
Oh wait, tomorrow's friday. I'll be - I'll be studying. Damn, I'm pathetic.
"Will you allow me to help you find your purpose for existing?"
There is no purpose. I was born, complete accident, I shall die, complete inevitability.
But, why do you say differntly? Have you any evidence?