Evidence for a soul?

*Originally posted by Taken
The words you quote are in English translated from a language we do not have words to fit so we are left with approximations and close calls. Every language differs, and people have to work from their knowledge base. The concept being held true, the language is not the point.*

So, although the word of God makes a distinction between soul and spirit, you don't have to?

*Originally posted by Red Devil
He can only see the answers out of one solitary lil old book - at least I am broadminded enough to compare solutions in various ways and arrive at a decision on that assumption.*

Yet you're still wrong.

*Originally posted by Cris
I had an image in my mind and I asked her what she was thinking and she described the image I had in my mind. The thought was unrelated to anything about the walk. I couldn’t determine any reason why she and I should share the same apparent random thought at the same time unless we had linked in some way.*

Pretty easy to explain if a spirit is giving you both the same image.
But since you don't believe in spirits, you're going to have to go the long way around, like the list of stuff you came up with in just seconds, along with plenty more.
You could spend ten lifetimes, and still not come up with an explanation.
 
Taken,

You are tenacious aren’t you? :D

Is it then safe to say that you do believe there is in fact a common force in existance and operating upon and with in all creation although not yet totally defined, and you do not so much reject that idea but rather reject the shallow limited persona that man has attempted to assign it in their lack of knowledge of infinate things?
Click to expand...
I need to break that down a little so that we are clear.

You say …you do BELIEVE there is in FACT…. You are trying hard I’ll give you that. It is theory not fact, so I cannot believe it as fact. I recognize the theory as having interesting potential in helping us explain the nature of the universe.

You say …operating upon and with in all CREATION…. Slipped that in there quietly huh? We don’t know yet that anything was created. The dominant theory is that matter and/or energy can only be transformed into other matter/energy, and is never created or destroyed.

You say …lack of knowledge of INFINITE things…. As yet we don’t know if anything can be infinite let alone have any knowledge of such things.

So just for fun, since I think you might enjoy this, here is my theory of life the universe and everything, and the answer is not 42.

…uh oh my daughter and I have suddenly decided to go to the movies – I’ll finish this later…..

Cris
 
LOL
Let me make one point easier for you then. Instead of the broad term "created"...how about we say the earth was formed or fashioned out of what was before it and what that was no one knows for sure yet. That would be more in line with the actuall scriptures anyway, and it was my failure to state it in more detail.
 
Proof By Common Reason (deductive reasoning-systematic theology-dictionary.com)

Originally written by counterbalance:
Life may not have always existed. Can you prove it either way? And simply because you or others believe that a god is "in the picture" does not make it so. You can claim it as a truth from now until the cows come home, but in the end, it is only your version of an unproveable truth.

Me- Ok take existence itself, why does anything exist instead of nothing. Since God exists and is said to be infinite then He cannot have a beginning, for when does an infinite thing begin? A thing with no beginning cannot have an end, for it would have ended by now, you see the no beginning is the no end.

Me- For if God has always existed then He must have always been creating, correct.

Originally written by counterbalance
This is an assumption, based upon other assumptions, none of which can be proven.

Me- Ok, if God has always existed then from what point in always existing did He decide to create us? Thus He has always been creating in a limitless space. Now think this if God is in this place and this place is infinite, then which of the two is larger? So in compliance with that stated question, God did not come into existence, for He is infinite. You may say, who says He is, well if He is not then what created God and what created that and so on for all eternity essentially we, by doing this would ultimately come to the conclusion of one infinitude. And so, since God to exist must be infinitude, He is self-sufficient having no source. How can a decision to create a thing be made from the point of no beginning, would it not have been created already, or to think of the eternity set ahead "after" the eternity already past? Eternity has no time, for the no beginning describes eternity already gone by (no beginning), with eternity yet to come, you see.

Originally written by counterbalance
Who says that God has a beginning or an end? Who says that God exists? The authors of ancient scriptures? You? Those who chose to believe and to make this or similar claims? And who are all of you that your claims are not to be questioned by those who have no use for your god or gods?

Me- No use for God. He created you, and by rejecting Him your eternal destiny is hell. God is not a game. And about you writing “gods”, there are no “gods” there are only demons who make themselves as God to those who reject God. For in Deuteronomy we read, 32:17 “They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

You see, all things you hear of “gods’ is merely devils who seek the position of God, and attempt to deceive, and succeed in the minds of those who reject God. 2 Corinthians 4:4, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
John 1:5, “And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

To come from darkness into the “light” you must know God by submitting unto Him with your life, thoughts, actions, and belief. Read His word.

P.S. There was never nothingness (known by proof of reason). Reason is not of the opinion of the mind it is of the truths of which we know to be true, compiled to make a whole (i.e. something does not come from nothing, for nothing begets nothing)

Truth, Jonathan
 
Reason why those who do not believe are blinded by satan

The reason for this is the shield of faith is with those who believe and those who believe not satan deceives that they may not believe in further evidence.
6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
6:12
For we wrestle not against * flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Ephesians 6:13, "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
6:14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
6:15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
6:16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
6:17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
6:18Praying always * * * with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto * * * with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;"

P.S. Life is a battle over spirits (souls) for man has a free will to be persuaded.

Truth, Jonathan
 
Cris

What you have experienced is entirely possible - for reasons I know not. Fathers and children are extremely close genetically and mentally. Many years ago, I had a dream about walking through countryside, it was vivid and clear and stayed in my mind after waking. Some years after that, hitching from London to Merseyside, a very kind driver dropped me in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night. I was not 10 miles from where I now live. I had no idea where I was and started walking across the dark lanes. Before dawn, I thought to my self, thre is a bench by the pub around this bend - then I realised what I had just thought! I had never been here! Sure enough, around the next bend (about a half mile) I came upon this pub and bench; where I tried to lie down and rest. I was too cold, the sky was lightening and I carried on walking KNOWING that I was about to get a lift in a sky blue car. A Londoner who was going on to Blackpool - to play golf! It happened exactly as I described - another half hour or so, this car (yes sky blue) pulled up and the driver took me almost all the way home. He had come down the road I was on by accident, having missed a turn to a motorway!!:rolleyes:
 
Taken,

Let me make one point easier for you then. Instead of the broad term "created"...how about we say the earth was formed or fashioned out of what was before it and what that was no one knows for sure yet. That would be more in line with the actual scriptures anyway, and it was my failure to state it in more detail.
Click to expand...
Pretty close, although there are now well-established cosmological theories that provide very good ideas and evidence on how the Earth, planets and stars are formed.

And as for the universe, see some of the writings from Stephan Hawkings, e.g. the existence of God isn’t necessary to explain the universe.

Cris
 
Re: Cris

*Originally posted by Red Devil
...then I realised what I had just thought! I had never been here!...*

It's funny what those spirits will do, whether you believe in them or not.

*Originally posted by Cris
And as for the universe, see some of the writings from Stephan Hawkings, e.g. the existence of God isn’t necessary to explain the universe.*

Stephen Hawkings?
Isn't he the guy who has figured out that walking and talking aren't necessary?
Not to be too harsh, but if he can't figure out how to walk and talk, how can we be sure that he knows that God is not necessary?
 
Tony1,

Stephen Hawkings?
Isn't he the guy who has figured out that walking and talking aren't necessary?
Not to be too harsh, but if he can't figure out how to walk and talk, how can we be sure that he knows that God is not necessary?
Click to expand...
I think you have just proved exactly the opposite. A high-tech wheel chair shows that walking isn’t necessary, and further advanced technology allows him to communicate quite adequately.

But really we do not need Hawkings any further in the sense that he has published his theories that have been accepted by his peers and the scientific community. Whether he can talk or walk is irrelevant.

Cris
 
Tony1

Quote: Stephen Hawkings?
Isn't he the guy who has figured out that walking and talking aren't necessary?
Not to be too harsh, but if he can't figure out how to walk and talk, how can we be sure that he knows that God is not necessary? Unquote.

Tony1 - even from you, a supposed christian, that is pretty close to sheer contempt. How you can be so vile towards a person suffering from a "god given" incurable disease is even beyond my understanding. I take back my earlier Xmas greetings - I hope you get boils instead!!
:mad:
 
Tony1

It's funny what those spirits will do, whether you believe in them or not.............. on that subject I am open minded, how I knew or how I found out, I just do not know. It was not a religious experience.
 
Cris, I am still greatly interested in you shareing the rest of the post that got interupted by the movie.
 
Re: Tony1

*Originally posted by Red Devil
Tony1 - even from you, a supposed christian, that is pretty close to sheer contempt. How you can be so vile towards a person suffering from a "god given" incurable disease is even beyond my understanding.*

First of all, it isn't God-given.
Second, he himself says God isn't necessary.

If I were in his shoes, I'd be thinking God is very necessary.
There is nothing incurable about what he has.
The problem is that SH has placed his bet on science, and science can't do anything.

*It was not a religious experience.*

No, it isn't.
Spirits are very ordinary.
Unfortunately, so is death.
Worse, some of those spirits are causing some of those deaths, as well as experiences like you mentioned.

Christianity is the only way to deal with issues like that.
 
Seeking GOD is the only way to deal with issues like that. Christianity as a group of people has become so far removed from the intentions of Jesus that they cause as much harm as good.
 
*Originally posted by Taken
Seeking GOD is the only way to deal with issues like that. Christianity as a group of people has become so far removed from the intentions of Jesus that they cause as much harm as good. *

Since any old religion has a God, we should narrow that down to Jesus Christ, who is found in ...er...Christianity.

Seeking Jesus is the way to deal with things like that, since in his name, one can deal with all spirits.
As Taken has shown, both harm and good are issues in this world as well as with spirits, so there is really no point in heading off and getting entangled with the harmful ones right away.
 
Jesus said we have no need of intercesion, we may go bodly before the Father (El) to ask what we need. It is by Jesus blood and injurys that we are healed and saved.
 
Oh dear...

No use for God. He created you, and by rejecting Him your eternal destiny is hell. God is not a game. And about you writing “gods”, there are no “gods” there are only demons who make themselves as God to those who reject God. For in Deuteronomy we read, 32:17 “They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Click to expand...

~~~

Jonathan...

I suspect your people need to get with Tony1's people a.s.a.p.--if they aren't already acquainted.

Plain and simple, you've provided nothing of substance to support...well, virtually everything you've proposed, and I believe you've strayed a bit too far from the original topic. Come now, Jonathan. Be as reasonable as you would like for us to believe you are? Your claim that God created me is nothing but a claim. Moreover, you've claimed there are no gods, only demons... and offer nothing in the way of proof BUT your claim and a biblical reference that could be (is and always will be) interpreted in any number of ways by believers and non-believers alike.

Well, okay... fair enough. Insupportable claims of God's (or A god's) existence are nothing new 'round here, but then you write:

Ok, if God has always existed then from what point in always existing did He decide to create us? Thus He has always been creating in a limitless space. Now think this if God is in this place and this place is infinite, then which of the two is larger? So in compliance with that stated question, God did not come into existence, for He is infinite.
Click to expand...

Hey, I'm more the "live and let live" type believe it or not, but give me a break--okay? ...If God... ?? And again you've offered nothing but assumptions--on top of yet another floating assumption--that, apparently, what you've written here will be swallowed whole by the reader; accepted without question? (Pssssst...Jonathan...this kind of game is old hat now)

Occasionally someone offers something genuinely interesting or insightful in the religion and philosophy discussions here; enough so that I like to look in in on 2-3 of the threads whenever I visit just to see what, if anything, is new. I don't think you can provide proof for any of your declarations, but it doesn't hurt to turn a spotlight on such a glaring lack when pure manipulative fancy has been given wings. I mean, you've proposed these things as though you were speaking to gullible children. Who are you actually trying to fool? Yourself or others?

And no... pointing this out isn't likely to inspire you (or others) to stop with this silliness, but what the hec? It's the holidays and I feel like giving in to the temptation to ... :rolleyes: ... anyway.

~~~

Counterbalance
 
Taken,

Ocean’s 11 wasn’t bad.

OK – Life, the Universe and Everything.

Proposition (1) The universe is infinite. We know it exists but don’t know if it had a beginning. The laws of physics suggest only matter/energy transformations are possible with no creation or destruction. This tends to support an infinite universe.

Proposition (2) The Big Bang is not Unique. Some say the Big Bang indicates a beginning, but that would conflict with (1). We do not yet know what there was before the big bang or exactly how the big bang started.

All previous attempts by humans to limit the size of the universe have failed, e.g. the Earth was once believed to be at the center and the sun, moon and stars revolved around the Earth. We should not jump to a conclusion about the big bang until we have more information.

One theory that I like is that there are an infinite number of big bangs occurring concurrently at different states of expansion with each at vast distances from each other. I can envision our currently observable universe as just being one bubble among an infinite number. This theory would be consistent with all other cosmological constructs, e.g. groups of planets around a sun, groups of stars in galaxies, groups of galaxies in super-clusters, and there are reasons to suspect that these are further grouped together. Further conjecture could place groups of big bangs together.

But really we are at the limits of our ability to observe and we should not jump to any conclusions about what came before until we have some evidence. In the meantime man will continue to theorize as he should and continue to search. For the moment I like the multiple big bang theory as a plausible potential explanation.

Proposition (3) Life Evolved. I have two main reasons for preferring Evolutionary theory over any alternatives.

1. All current life, whether it is plant or animal share the same basis – DNA. From the very simplest lifeform to the most advanced (man), the only difference is the message held within that species DNA.

2. There is a superb movie I saw on a college course many years ago that shows the early stages in the development of an embryo for numerous lifeforms. All the early stages were identical and it only took on specifics as it grew into the form defined by its DNA. It was very revealing to see the human go through the fish stage and then a frog stage before becoming more recognizably human. In other words all life had common beginnings.

We don’t yet know how the earliest lifeforms began and there is still much theorizing and experimentation (abiogenesis). There is also the question of whether life is unique to only this planet or whether it exists on other planets. Until we have more facts everything else is speculation. The biggest objection to an evolutionary start to life is the question as to how could something as complex as DNA have come into existence by random.

The question is not too difficult to answer.

1. Given 4.5 billion years of Earth history that saw massive changes in environment then it would seem plausible that such a significant time period would allow for considerable random events that might have caused the beginning of early life.

2. Why would the earth be special for life to form? Given an infinite universe with an infinite combination of possibilities then Earth was simply at least one planet that met favorable criteria for this type of life to begin.

3. But early life didn’t require DNA as we know it now, the molecules were much simpler. And as for order from disorder (decreasing Entropy), that happens constantly throughout nature, consider the beautiful complexity of a snowflake as a very simple example. But complex molecules do not form randomly, they naturally form according to their chemical properties. Carbon for example forms and combines very easily with other atoms. Far from life forming accidentally and by random it would seem, given the basics of molecular attraction and the fact that the Earth was not a closed system then the appearance of life was inevitable.

Everything Else. This is really about what comes next.

1. Computing power achieves human brain equivalence (approx 2020).
2. Neuroscience manages to map all brain functions.
3. Human brain functions are digitized and uploading to non-bio based substrate becomes possible.
4. Human intelligence is transferred to non-bio resilient shells. Posthumans come into existence.
5. Posthumans undergo massive enhancements and increases in intelligence.
6. Free from being constrained by an earth-like environment posthumans are free to explore space and survive on other planets of almost any type.
7. The galaxy and beyond are explored and inhabited by posthumans.

That is a somewhat brief overview and I could add some more meat to those ideas if you like, if I can find time.

Have fun
Cris
 
Last edited:
*Originally posted by Taken
Jesus said we have no need of intercesion, we may go bodly before the Father (El) to ask what we need. It is by Jesus blood and injurys that we are healed and saved. *

So we agree that this Jesus you speak of, is Jesus Christ?

*Originally posted by Cris
1. All current life, whether it is plant or animal share the same basis – DNA. From the very simplest lifeform to the most complex (man), the DNA variations and complexity are proportionate in size.*

No, that's just a myth.

The following is a list of haploid sizes for various creatures...
Brazilian horned frog - 52
Domestic dog - 39
One-humped camel - 37
Big brown bat - 25
Human - 23
Fruit bat - 15
Round-eared bat - 8
Tasmanian devil - 7
Barking deer - 4

As you can see, we started out as barking deer which evolved into Tasmanian devils into round-eared bats into fruit bats into humans which evolved into big brown bats into one-humped camels into the dog into the peak of evolutionary improvement, the ***ta daaa *** the Brazilian horned frog *** tantaraaaa****.

The evolution of the bat is curious.
The round-eared bat evolved into the fruit bat, which I can understand since fruit bats are much more highly evolved.
Then into humans, which is so much better.

But, it turns out that humans aren't as highly evolved as you would expect since we evolved into big brown bats into camels into dogs.

Not only that, we are just pikers compared to The Brazilian Horned Frog.
 
Thanks Tony1. I knew oversimplification was going to bite me.

We know from the recent human genome project that a surprisingly large amount of human DNA material is junk. The quantity of junk differs depending which genome (species) is being examined. For those that have gone through many mutations/adaptations then there will be more junk, and conversely for species that took a shorter route to their final form.

If we remove the junk and consider only the message complexity then my statement makes more sense. But that conclusion needs to be further qualified by only considering the sequence that led to a particular species.

I’ve edited my post to be more representative of my original intention without adding complex explanations.

Cris
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top