Everyone experiences RACISM.

[Tiassa]

You're above this.

Then excuse me, please, for trying to accommodate you.

People lie when they do something stupid. It doesn't matter what color they are.

Your blanket misanthropy is part of your error.

But thanks for demonstrating my point.

Given that you've got nothing but your own cynicism to stand on, Persol, one is given to wonder what your point is.

You have yet to provide any sense of detail, and your comparison reeks of presumptions upon which you insist despite what I tell you.

So quit being so sleazy, Persol. It's rather quite disgusting.

I thought you were above a certain brand of misanthropic intellectual dishonesty, but thank you for showing me that error.

 

[Persol]

Given that you've got nothing but your own cynicism to stand on, Persol, one is given to wonder what your point is.

Saying that 'people lie' isn't cynicism... it's reality. People are more likely to lie when they do something that gets them in trouble. This isn't cynicism, but a simple observation.

So quit being so sleazy, Persol. It's rather quite disgusting.

so you accuse me of saying your friend lied because he is black? Now THAT is sleazy. It also supports my position that racism is assumed almost as a 'default' explanation for people saying/doing things which are not liked.

The way I see it, there are two options to your story:
1) Your friend left out an important detail of his story
2) The cop was a jackass

The cop doesn't need to be racist to be a jackass... although it most certainly helps. The point is you don't know. You are simply relying on the 'default' explanation.

I thought you were above a certain brand of misanthropic intellectual dishonesty, but thank you for showing me that error.

Glad I could help.

 

[Tiassa]

Saying that 'people lie' isn't cynicism... it's reality. People are more likely to lie when they do something that gets them in trouble. This isn't cynicism, but a simple observation.

Presuming that people are always lying is tantamount to the Christian presumption of Original Sin: it gives you reason to expect the worst of people.

It's nothing but cheap cynicism.

so you accuse me of saying your friend lied because he is black? Now THAT is sleazy. It also supports my position that racism is assumed almost as a 'default' explanation for people saying/doing things which are not liked.

Hey, you're the one who decided to make this an issue of cold cynicism where racism is involved;

• And I can't say it was my black half that got me falsly arrested.... that doesn't mean it was a case of racism.
• And I understand that you think the story of your friend was racism (and agree that it probably was)... but I've had similar things happen to white friends of mine. I had a friend ticketed because he didn't want the cop to push (read: ram repeatedly) his car out of the median instead of waiting for the tow truck which was already called.
• So your friend says.
• You're above this. People lie when they do something stupid. It doesn't matter what color they are.

You have started from a presumption of doubt about a person who happens to be black and has made a charge of racism. Furthermore, you have made a presumption favorable to a police officer who happens to be white because it feeds your cynicism about racism.

In the end, you are reduced to simple spite:

The way I see it, there are two options to your story:
1) Your friend left out an important detail of his story
2) The cop was a jackass

Thus, a black man accusing a cop of racism must necessarily be lying?

The cop doesn't need to be racist to be a jackass... although it most certainly helps. The point is you don't know . You are simply relying on the 'default' explanation.

And your point depends on the assumption that a black man accusing racism must necessarily be lying.

Glad I could help.

I'll bear that in mind in the future.

Oh, and one other thing you can help me with:

• Should I always presume you're always this dishonest? It would seem appropriate in light of your cynicism toward people, and I ought to be fair, you know. But then again, you've shown a thick hypocrisy in that cynicism, so essentially I would like your advice on how best to regard your utter lack of respectable character. Should I just presume that you're always lying, hypocritical, and cynical beyond communication?

 

[Persol]

Thus, a black man accusing a cop of racism must necessarily be lying?

See, once again you try and tie a possible lie to the guy being black. I'm sorry.... I wasn't aware that black people lied any more or lesss than anyone else.

More over, you are completely ignoring how your friend knew it was racism. Did he call him a niger, or was he being a jackass?

And your point depends on the assumption that a black man accusing racism must necessarily be lying.

It relies on the assumption that your friend isn't a mind reader. Maybe you have very 'interesting' friends.

But then again, you've shown a thick hypocrisy in that cynicism

Perhaps you would like to point out exactly how? In my book, arguing that racism isn't the 'default' answer, and then claiming that I called him a liar because he is black, is hypocrisy.

 

[Tiassa]

More over, you are completely ignoring how your friend knew it was racism. Did he call him a niger, or was he being a jackass?

As one who has experienced direct and violent racism before, I am aware that one not need call him "nigger" in order to behave in a racist manner. Your simplification pretends no understanding of racism, which doesn't surprise me at all since you think anyone calling out racism is lying.

And frankly, Persol, I think you're being an absolute punk saying, "you are completely ignoring ...." Your rude, hypocritical cynicism has no details other than your own say-so. Furthermore, the fact that you are ignoring the content of my posts in order to waste space with vapid spite presents an interesting ethical challenge in itself: what credibility do I owe your dishonesty?

It relies on the assumption that your friend isn't a mind reader. Maybe you have very 'interesting' friends.

Such an imagined dependency is only the result of your own cynicism and inattention to detail.

Perhaps you would like to point out exactly how? In my book, arguing that racism isn't the 'default' answer, and then claiming that I called him a liar because he is black, is hypocrisy.

You racist punk. You absolute foul excuse for an argument: what in the world do you want? You don't read my posts, you approach race considerations from the perspective that people suffering racism must be lying about it, and then you have the nerve to ask me to point out what has already been pointed out? Why do you hate black people so much?

Perhaps if you could put some effort into explaining what you find unsatisfactory about the prior establishment of your hypocrisy, there might be a place to start. But if you haven't the courtesy to address those points, well, I can't say I'm surprised. You've been rude all the way through this, Persol. Get your attitude a tune-up.

 

[Bells]

Excuse me for butting into this little lovefest...

More over, you are completely ignoring how your friend knew it was racism. Did he call him a niger, or was he being a jackass?

Persol, racism is not just about calling someone a 'nigger'. A policeman pulling someone over because they are of any colour and they have done nothing wrong is racism. A person walking into a store and not being served because of their colour is racism.

The lack of a racist remark does not mean that it wasn't racism. Until you've been discriminated against just because of your colour or race, you won't know what racism actually is. You know it's racism when it happens. For example, a black man driving a brand new car and is pulled over by the police even though he has done nothing wrong or suspicious is construed as racism. It's not solely one's words that prove racism. One's attitude towards others goes further in showing racism than words ever could.

I once went into a store when on holidays to my birth country. Now the country that I was born in is one that is disgustingly racist... both ways. I'm a creole, and while I'm not dark, I have the light olive skin and curly hair that shows my ancestry. I went into this upmarket store to buy some t-shirts for friends back home. The store was owned by whites and the employees were all white. At that time, I didn't even think that anything would happen. I grew up in a country where I'd never experienced such racism and I stupidly thought that things had changed in my birth country. I was wrong. Anywho... As I walked in, I spotted a very good white friend of mine who was also there on holidays and had been on the same flight as me, also there to buy souvenirs. But as soon as I walked into that store, I had 3 salespeople start following me. So I turned around and told them I was just looking for some t-shirts and one of them told me that I wouldn't find what I was looking for in this store and that everything here is 'so expensive'. I laughed and said 'excuse me?' and she repeated her statement. By this stage 2 other employees had gathered around me as though to make sure I didn't touch anything in the store in case I dirtied it with my colour or something. My white friend left the counter and walked over to see what was the problem and the saleswoman told him that nothing was the matter and that it was obvious I was in the wrong store. He was horrified. How do I know it was racist Persol? Because it simply was. He had been in the process of buying a large amount of goods and he turned to them and said forget it, he preferred to go to another store. The fools did not realise that I was a tourist with tourist dollars and as I turned to leave, I told them in english that I would make sure that I spread the word in Australia to every person I knew to never come into this store. As soon as I said that, and they realised I was in fact a tourist, the smiles came back to their faces and they tried to pull out all these t-shirts on shelves and hangers, saying how silly they were and they thought I was there for something else that they didn't have. My friend and I both walked out of the store together, taking a large amounts of tourist dollars with us. He told me that it was the first time in his life that he'd ever witnessed such blatant racism and he was disgusted. We walked into a more expensive store across the road, also a white store, and we had no problems there. Whatever they may have felt towards me never showed and they were only interested in making the sale. When I left that store with a fair few bags (I think I had spent the equivalent of what the salesman serving me makes in a month), I made sure I walked back across the road and waved all the bags that I had in my hand from the more expensive store at the fools who wouldn't serve me in the first place. The look of dismay on their racist little faces amused me. See Persol, they didn't have to call me 'nigger' to be racist. Attitude plays more into racism then words ever could.

As for Tiassa's story. Whether your friend lied or not, the cop who arrested him was still an arsehole. Was he racist in his actions? I don't know, I wasn't there, but he most probably was and that makes him an even bigger arsehole.

 

[Persol]

Persol, racism is not just about calling someone a 'nigger'. A policeman pulling someone over because they are of any colour and they have done nothing wrong is racism.

Yeah, the problem is that cops pull white people over for no apparent reason as well. The opinion that 'it is because of skin color' is just that. He could be being a jackass cause he is racist... or he could just be a jackass.

You racist punk.

You ignore what I'nm actually saying and suddenly that makes me a racist? The humor here is that I said "racism is used as a default reason when people don't really know why someone is being a jackass". Then I said that people are known to lie when they do something stupid that gets a cop on their back.

Somehow you put these two together and decided I was a racist... thus supporting my first point. Thank you.

 

[MagiAwen]

I, too, don't want to interrupt the interactions here but I did want to respond to the original post.

I do think that everyone experiences racism or at the very least some sort of prejuidice a few times in their lives.

Personally, I grew up in a predominately white rural area and have since moved back after roaming the countryside. There is not a lot of diversity here as far as race goes. Because of this, other than my experiences outside of this area I have not experienced much direct or indirect racism.

The only thing I have experienced that is even close to racism toward myself personally and this is probably not worth mentioning because it was more of a warning of impending bodily harm but I'll tell it anyway. I was driving into a city and decided I should get some gas before I got really into it because it's always a pain in my arse so I pull of on the next offramp where I saw a gas station. So, because I'm so stupid I don't notice the area or the people in it...never occured to me. I am about to get out of the car when this huge black dude ran up to it and started yelling at me, "What the hell are you doing??? What do you want?? I was stupefied. I told him I was almost out of gas and just wanted gas and was like...this IS a gas station right? He asks me if I know where I am and I'm like no...and he says he'll give me 5 bucks in gas but I have to get out of there quick because I'm white and if anyone sees me I won't be leaving anytime soon.
Scares the piss out of ya when you haven't lived around or experienced that type of thing before.

There was one thing that happened to my friend and I recently that kind of resembles the story Bells related.

My friend and I both have daughters. We are both on similar insurance plans which are sliding fee HMO's since we don't make enough money...or so says the state. I figure I pay all my taxes-I can take advantage of one social program. Well I found out next year I won't qualify so I decide it is time to make sure we have our glasses in order and offer to take my friend and her daughter who also wears glasses. Nice day out to the eye doctor right? HA HA or so I thought.

So we arrive and everything is fine..tell the receptionist we have this HMO and we each hand over the family cards. When it comes time for glasses we get...well your HMO only offers these frames. My kid didn't like the frame selection so I said can we have the HMO pay for the exam and lenses but buy our own frames? No problem.

Here it comes. My friend is white, her daughter is not so white. Her father is from Africa so here we go. My friend looks at the lady and says....last time we got HMO frames they kept breaking and they only allow one frame replacement so I'd also like to purchase frames independently that are better quality and get the two year breakage plan... and you know what the bitch behind the counter says???? She goes, "Oh, Sweetie, I'm sure these will be fine...she's only six. Besides, frames are expensive.

There I was about to write a check for over 200.00 for my frames and the kid's frames and of course transition lenses because teenagers think that's so cool and this lady insults my friend.

My friend says, "What does that have to do with it?" And the lady says, "Well, we just can't afford that can we?"

HA HA I told her to shove it and we went somewhere else. But apparently my friend has encountered this before.

It's sad.

 

[Tiassa]

Yeah, the problem is that cops pull white people over for no apparent reason as well. The opinion that 'it is because of skin color' is just that. He could be being a jackass cause he is racist... or he could just be a jackass.

And if you can't tell the difference, then you've been blessed by a life free of any racist experience from either end, and I congratulate you and wish you well.

In the meantime, unlike you, there comes a point where I trust my friends. Sorry I wasn't there to see it for myself; I had forgotten that black men complaining of racism are simply lying.

You ignore what I'nm actually saying and suddenly that makes me a racist? The humor here is that I said "racism is used as a default reason when people don't really know why someone is being a jackass". Then I said that people are known to lie when they do something stupid that gets a cop on their back.

Somehow you put these two together and decided I was a racist... thus supporting my first point. Thank you.

Why pick now to have a problem with that sort of argument? You seem so in favor of it when you're the one putting it up.

Not everybody is as stupid as you choose to see them, Persol. A black man complaining of racism must be lying: great thesis. You have my admiration.

 

[Persol]

In the meantime, unlike you, there comes a point where I trust my friends. Sorry I wasn't there to see it for myself; I had forgotten that black men complaining of racism are simply lying.

I've been standing there when my friends have used this excuse. I never said he lied, I said it was a possibility (and also said that it likely was a case of racism). Yet because I mentioned the possibility, I'm suddenly a racist. Nice try.

A black man complaining of racism must be lying: great thesis.

Listen jackass, show where I said that or shut it.

 

[wesmorris]

Because I generally butt in because I'm a jackass, I believe the point of contention is yet another misunderstanding.

Persol simply didn't object to Tiassa's assertion "oh then my friend must be lying" or something like that, whereas I believe it was Persol's intention that he wasn't necessarily lying, but focusing on stupid shit. Obviously Persol's point is persistent. He simply sees an asshole. He may be a racist asshole, but the problem is that he's an asshole. I tend to agree with Persol.

It seems to me that I have no idea for sure why he was arrested. Could be that he matched a description. Could be racism (which in that case though, is just an asshole). Could be prejudice (in which he matched a profile rather than a description) could be that he thought he saw a smirk on your friend's face he decided he was going to wipe off, blah blah blah, lots of variations on reasons. maybe I didn't read closely enough, but racism exists IMO, because of asshat fuckwads who embrace it because it seems right to them. They are asshat fuckwads.... what do you expect?

 

[Persol]

The presumption that every black man gives cops a bunch of crap warranting arrest is just repugnant.

Yeah, but that's not what I said. Racism exists... I think your example is a case (although you can't really demonstrate that)... but I've been with black friends who when questioned always think it's racism... and most of the time it's nothing special.

Tiassa made his point long ago, and I clarified immediately following... yet he persists.

 

[Bells]

but I've been with black friends who when questioned always think it's racism... and most of the time it's nothing special.

If it is racism, it's always special. Especially to the person being discriminated against.

Yeah, the problem is that cops pull white people over for no apparent reason as well. The opinion that 'it is because of skin color' is just that. He could be being a jackass cause he is racist... or he could just be a jackass.

Yes, people aren't always pulled over because of their skin colour or race. But some people are. I have an aboriginal friend who's a lawyer and fairly wealthy. Drives a BMW. And this guy gets pulled over just about every week, even when he hasn't done anything wrong. And he's always asked questions such as 'is this your car?', 'can you prove that?'. The best he always says was 'how did you manage to get such a car?.. win the lottery?'. I'd say that he has a right to cry racism in such cases. Now I know other people who aren't black and who own expensive cars and they've never been asked such questions. Other times he may get pulled over for no reason and they never ask any such questions and he's breathalysed or undergoes a car check or something and then allowed to continue on his way. One case in my opinion is definitely racism and the other probably not.

 

[nicholas1M7]

images create mentality and hence morality. we fit ourselves and others into mass distributed images. those images set standards that are cultural, genetic and moralistic. which is not to say that doing so is right or wrong but rather, their is a potential cost to the distribution of individual advantages.

 

[Persol]

If it is racism, it's always special. Especially to the person being discriminated against.

Yes 'if its racism'. Often there is no reason to think that it was... but they still assume it is.

Yes, people aren't always pulled over because of their skin colour or race. But some people are.

And I'm not trying to argue against that... but when you are in some way punished and the only logical reason is because 'I'm black', that reason starts to be used even when it isn't applicable.

One case in my opinion is definitely racism and the other probably not.

They both sound like racism to me... but that depends completely on why he was being breathalysed and/or having his car checked.

 

[Tiassa]

Persol and the Straw Men, sounds like a single on KROK

Tiassa made his point long ago, and I clarified immediately following... yet he persists

Persol, you have ignored a more important point (e.g. the costs of racism) in order to pick an issue in which your argument is that a black man complaining of racism is lying.

Your argument, which overlooks the more important point about the costs of racism, fails to take into account the possibility that I might have already considered the notion that such cynicism as yours is in fact a reasonable assertion. As such, not only do you call my friend a liar, you imply I'm an idiot.

You offered up an example for comparison, one which was horribly askew and which you did nothing to reconcile despite my request. In the meantime, you kept up your insistence that people are all liars, and therefore a black man claiming racism is lying.

You claim to have "clarified", but end up with a confused message in which you concede the possibility of racism while asserting that black people make racism out of nothing special.

You've been rude, dishonest, and spiteful, and yet whenever I stooped to accommodate your irrationality, you've had the nerve to complain.

So I thank you, Persol, for entering this reasonably interesting topic only to drag it down to yet another horsepucky argument about whether racism is real or the imaginings of liars.

Perhaps if you could explain to me certain details, such as how often you get hauled out of your car without being asked for your license over what amounts to--at the most--running a yellow light, well, then perhaps I might see some motivation in your argument that doesn't have to do with misanthropy. Perhaps if you could explain to me how your "example" compares, I might see it as something other than a cheap excuse in lieu of a legitimate argument.

Frankly, once we get past your insistence that people are liars and therefore black people complaining of racism are necessarily liars, we can return to the more useful and profitable discussion arising from a meritorious topic post.

You want to be the weak link? Fine with me. Although I gotta say, as ambitions go, that's "hella low".

 

[Persol]

Persol, you have ignored a more important point (e.g. the costs of racism) in order to pick an issue in which your argument is that a black man complaining of racism is lying.

Wow, still not what I said.... and you're the one complaining that voters should take a literacy test?

 

[Tiassa]

Wow, still not what I said.... and you're the one complaining that voters should take a literacy test?

So blacks aren't people, then?

After all, when pushed on the question of whether the black man was lying, all you could say was:

People lie when they do something stupid. It doesn't matter what color they are.

So if you said people lie, but claim that you're not arguing that the black man complaining of racism is lying, what's left? That black people aren't people?

Good show, Persol. Maybe you should pay some attention to what you're writing?

 

[Hideki Matsumoto]

In Japan there is alot of apparent "racism" simply because the local people are not very used to foreigners. hafu-jin (half breeeds) and Sankokujin ( all other asianics Korean, Chinese and Thai) get the worst treatment from our so called "civilized" society!! I hate the fact that the Japanese Govt has done nothing on this issue!! Term Sankokujin is derogatory and needs to be removed!
....... However, there is also another reason: alot of Japanese are actually very intolerant of differences hence, therefor we have a quite a few suicides due to "ijime"
Societies that seem to be "homogenious" or have "homogenic" ideology often have the worst problems with these such things!

 

[alain]

i as a whitey experience racism almsot everytiem i go into sydney (nothing too bad, just verbal abuse)