An egalitarian society offers equal opportunies, not equal outcomes.
Equality in pay and conditions and feminism
- Thread starter Asguard
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An egalitarian society offers equal opportunies, not equal outcomes.
OK, bear in mind that we are talking different countries here.
In the US there are definite barriers to woman, particularly when it comes to management and other high paying positions. We just had a new law signed to address some of that.
There are also systemic pay discrepancies against women, just like there are for minorities and the elderly. This is in spite of the fact that direct discrimination is illegal.
Frankly if you are a tall, good looking white guy, you have a better chance than an equally skilled person who is not a tall, good looking white guy. There are piles and piles of studies of these issues in the US. And yes, I'm a tall good looking white guy so I know what it is like.
However things are much better than they used to be and progress continues to be made. When she was in the work force, my mom was the only woman engineer at the major aerospace company she worked for. My sweety's mom was one of only 2 woman on the major metropolitan police force she served on. Representation by women in these fields has come a long way since then.
In the US there are definite barriers to woman, particularly when it comes to management and other high paying positions. We just had a new law signed to address some of that.
There are also systemic pay discrepancies against women, just like there are for minorities and the elderly. This is in spite of the fact that direct discrimination is illegal.
Frankly if you are a tall, good looking white guy, you have a better chance than an equally skilled person who is not a tall, good looking white guy. There are piles and piles of studies of these issues in the US. And yes, I'm a tall good looking white guy so I know what it is like.
However things are much better than they used to be and progress continues to be made. When she was in the work force, my mom was the only woman engineer at the major aerospace company she worked for. My sweety's mom was one of only 2 woman on the major metropolitan police force she served on. Representation by women in these fields has come a long way since then.
Well I am also tall white guy, not sure about being good looking...probably ugly. But the point is your stereotyping of white tall guys is wrong
I am not getting some sort of leeway just cause I am tall and white. So stop putting white men into dirt.But given that men and women are the same, and the opportunities are the same, we should expect equal outcomes. If we saw anything different we would assume 1) men and women are not equal 2) opportunities were not equal or 3) the sample size is not large enough.
Presumably there are not issues with sample size, and men and women are identical, so the problem must be 2.
At least, that's the feminist argument.
Sciencelovah
Registered Senior Member
Which graduates and where (the statistics is taken from)? To generalize graduate as a whole will be misleading. For example, if more men are interested in field A (let say, I.T.), and that field offers higher payment than other fields, it will result in that graduates men are paid higher than women. If the statistic says that for the same field, same position, and same qualification men are paid better than women, the feminists objection is understandable.
I think that the difference in pay is often due to the fact that men tend to negotiate more agressively. Also, men are more inclined to take risks, which means a higher potential for bigger rewards. Women, on the other hand, generally tend to be more concerned with balancing work and family and are therefore less likely to pursue new opportunities if they are satisfied with the status quo.
Women and men have different priorities. I'm an Optometrist and have multiple offices. I employ doctors to work at the branch offices when I'm not there. There is no set pay for the doctors, I negotiate with each doctor. Women are always more concerned with flexibility in scheduling, time off, lunch, etc. Men are concerned with the money. The male doctors are always trying to negotiate for more money, so they often get it. The female doctors almost always take my first offer regarding pay, but want a longer lunch, or to be able to leave early every Monday and Thursday, or whatever. On Saturdays, our busiest day, the male doctors (myself included) work right thru lunch for the extra money. The female doctors always need to take their lunch.
The bottom line is that women make less because of the choices they make, not because of some grand conspiracy of evil, sexist male chauvinists.
Lots of women don't require these special things, myself included. If your theory flew, young single women would make as much as young men. WE DON'T. We make more than women with families and partners, but less than men.
Do young women state the same salary requirements as young men when asked by a potential employer?
Do young women spend more time actually working or socializing with the right people to get bonuses and promotions?
Why is this sexist? Most women are more responsible than guys and more compliant with authority
Furthermore, in male-dominated occupations, some opportunities to socialize automatically exclude most women, like sports and paintball (not all women are into that), so guys get more face time with others, which allows them to network and promote themselves.So...if you request a salary that you think is a market-level salary for your level of experience, and you get the job, then what's the problem? Either you underestimate yourself and should be requesting more, or you don't spend enough time networking in order to advance faster.
takandjive as i said its been illegal to pay women more than men for years and all pay is conected to clinical level in the ambulance service and that pay is set under the enterprise agreement. Further more there are no compeating companies which could be biasing the results so either
a) men are signing up for more overtime
b) men are getting there clinical compitancies earlier than women for whatever reason (something i doubt)
or c) the figures are wrong
a) men are signing up for more overtime
b) men are getting there clinical compitancies earlier than women for whatever reason (something i doubt)
or c) the figures are wrong
I've been wondering about this equal pay issue.
Let's take this to a different level; If each of ten men and ten women work on exactly, precisely, the same jobs on each different day of the week, will their performance be perfectly equal in all respects?
If not, should they all be paid the same? Or does performance have nothing to do with the issue of equal job/equal pay?
Baron Max
Let's take this to a different level; If each of ten men and ten women work on exactly, precisely, the same jobs on each different day of the week, will their performance be perfectly equal in all respects?
If not, should they all be paid the same? Or does performance have nothing to do with the issue of equal job/equal pay?
Baron Max
Why is this sexist? Most women are more responsible than guys and more compliant with authority
So...if you request a salary that you think is a market-level salary for your level of experience, and you get the job, then what's the problem? Either you underestimate yourself and should be requesting more, or you don't spend enough time networking in order to advance faster.
You assume it's that simple. Women can go in, do the same work with the same qualifications, and make the same requests, and routinely get less. Look at school teacher stats.
Can you honestly say that all those qualifications are, and the work being done is, truly equal?
Can any two people on the planet have exactly, precisely, the same qualifications, work experience, personality, physical and mental abilities?
Baron Max
Why is this sexist? Most women are more responsible than guys and more compliant with authority
So...if you request a salary that you think is a market-level salary for your level of experience, and you get the job, then what's the problem? Either you underestimate yourself and should be requesting more, or you don't spend enough time networking in order to advance faster.
Do you have any evidence for these claims?
Well I am also tall white guy, not sure about being good looking...probably ugly. But the point is your stereotyping of white tall guys is wrong
Dragon, you are what? 22? You've never had a serious job yet. Finish your degree and get into the real job market where you actually can negotiate your pay.
I'm not putting white men in the dirt, I just calling it like I see it after 26 years in the computer industry.
Women work as hard or harder and get paid less by smarmy bosses like the ones speaking up here. If I ever lose my smarts and have to go into management I plan to favor experienced women applicants. I would be able to pay them fairly and treat them like every one else and they'll work their butts off and think I'm the best boss ever. :thumbsup: