Entropy contradict Evolution

I have one more, since James R is so kind to address for me. I am not unwilling to learn new information that is apparently in contradiction with what others say is true. After all, scientists at one point believed the earth to be flat.. and we have a Pseudoscience forum..

In fact, the signs are strong that exactly that is happening, and that those who have ‘bought’ the big bang for its allegedly irrefutable science have been ‘sold a pup’. A bombshell ‘Open Letter to the Scientific Community’ by 33 leading scientists has been published on the internet (www.cosmologystatement.org) and in New Scientist (Lerner, E., Bucking the big bang, New Scientist 182(2448)20, 22 May 2004). An article on www.rense.com titled ‘Big bang theory busted by 33 top scientists’ (27 May 2004) says, ‘Our ideas about the history of the universe are dominated by big bang theory. But its dominance rests more on funding decisions than on the scientific method, according to Eric Lerner, mathematician Michael Ibison of Earthtech.org, and dozens of other scientists from around the world.’

The open letter includes statements such as:

*

‘The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed—inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory.’
*

‘But the big bang theory can’t survive without these fudge factors. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation. … Inflation requires a density 20 times larger than that implied by big bang nucleosynthesis, the theory’s explanation of the origin of the light elements.’ [This refers to the horizon problem, and supports what we say in Light-travel time: a problem for the big bang.]
*

‘In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory [emphasis in original].’
*

‘What is more, the big bang theory can boast of no quantitative predictions that have subsequently been validated by observation. The successes claimed by the theory’s supporters consist of its ability to retrospectively fit observations with a steadily increasing array of adjustable parameters, just as the old Earth-centred cosmology of Ptolemy needed layer upon layer of epicycles.’

The dissidents say that there are other explanations of cosmology that do make some successful predictions. These other models don’t have all the answers to objections, but, they say, ‘That is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding. Indeed, such questions and alternatives cannot even now be freely discussed and examined.’

I find it interesting that so many people, like Nasor, on this board are so ready to mention "christianity" and "creationism" whenever someone questions evolution when there are secular scientists who question evolution. I am not an expert in evolution therefore if something I believe is wrong, you can surely tell me without crucifying my beliefs in general.

Culled from: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0601skepticism.asp

But the real article is here: http://www.cosmologystatement.org/
 
§outh§tar said:
I find it interesting that so many people, like Nasor, on this board are so ready to mention "christianity" and "creationism" whenever someone questions evolution when there are secular scientists who question evolution. I am not an expert in evolution therefore if something I believe is wrong, you can surely tell me without crucifying my beliefs in general.
Since you addressed members here generally, I would like to respond to your above statement.

The original poster did infact close with this statement.

"We can draw an important conclusion from the above: new information and order can only appear as a result of intelligence, planning and useful work.

Thus, the origin of life on earth could not have been the result of random natural processes, but only God's purposeful Creation. "


This is more than a simple challenge to evolution, it is a statement of religious belief in opposition to evolution, based on no evidence or facts. Why should not such baseless statements as fact be challenged?
 
Godless said:
Hey!! I'm not a scientist, but I'm good at philosophy. So I will give it a try;

If something comes into existence? hence like god? what's god's cause? god came into existence out of nothing? Can you demonstrate how god came to existence without an outside source? Like a supperior god, and on, and on, infinitum.

Godless. :cool:

My point as well. Claiming a God or Gods doesn't alter anything but merely adds more levels of unanswered questions. It is no more valuable than a criminal explaining his behiavior as "The devil made me do it".
 
SouthStar,

Science isn't done by voting for one view over another. If a really good alternative theory to the big bang theory comes to light, many scientists will be quite happy to embrace it, I assure you.

The big bang debate, by the way, is somewhat different to the issue of Evolution vs. Creationism. Young-earth Creationism has been absolutely refuted by scientists, many times. It cannot be true. There is no argument about that among scientists. It is a simple fact that there is no viable competing scientific theory to the theory of evolution.
 
Jan Arden said:
There are excellent arguments for the existence of God, such as cause and effect, the fact that life only comes from life etc... There are no arguments for the concept of a self-creating universe, of any real substance.

Actually this statement shows your lack of knowldege about the very subject you seem to want to argue. The fact is that 50 years ago (1954) in a university lab inorganic (non-living substance) gases placed into a glass chamber and exposed to electrical discharges (simulating natures lightening and the earths original atmospheric conditions) resulted in the production of "Organic" material (the basis of living organisimis) in a matters of hours after the experiment ensued.
 
Jan Arden said:
There are excellent arguments for the existence of God, such as cause and effect, the fact that life only comes from life etc... There are no arguments for the concept of a self-creating universe, of any real substance.

Actually this statement shows your lack of knowldege about the very subject you seem to want to argue. The fact is that 50 years ago (1954) in a university lab inorganic (non-living substance) gases placed into a glass chamber and exposed to electrical discharges (simulating natures lightening and the earths original atmospheric conditions) resulted in the production of "Organic" material (the basis of all living organisims) in a matters of hours after the experiment ensued.

Life is no more special than creating gasoline from oil. It is all merely a matter of chemistry.
 
James R said:
SouthStar,

Science isn't done by voting for one view over another. If a really good alternative theory to the big bang theory comes to light, many scientists will be quite happy to embrace it, I assure you.

The big bang debate, by the way, is somewhat different to the issue of Evolution vs. Creationism. Young-earth Creationism has been absolutely refuted by scientists, many times. It cannot be true. There is no argument about that among scientists. It is a simple fact that there is no viable competing scientific theory to the theory of evolution.

Can you refer me to some articles on the web? I am very interested as I have obviously been exposed to one side of the story for the greater part. Are you also saying that evolution is infallible, and that a "better" theory can not be developed?
 
MacM said:
Since you addressed members here generally, I would like to respond to your above statement.

The original poster did infact close with this statement.

"We can draw an important conclusion from the above: new information and order can only appear as a result of intelligence, planning and useful work.

Thus, the origin of life on earth could not have been the result of random natural processes, but only God's purposeful Creation. "


This is more than a simple challenge to evolution, it is a statement of religious belief in opposition to evolution, based on no evidence or facts. Why should not such baseless statements as fact be challenged?

Well I absolutely agree with you.

The truth is certainly self attesting and therefore no matter of scrutiny can "undo" the truth. This same principle can be applied to all "holy" books. As they claim to be the truth, which is self attesting, no amount of scrutiny should undo them. ABSOLUTELY all historical, scientific, spiritual data should be true.

If even ONE measly part is incorrect, then the whole thing is incorrect, for the truth does not contain lies.
 
SouthStar:

Are you also saying that evolution is infallible, and that a "better" theory can not be developed?

Of course not. All I'm saying is that there currently is no better scientific theory which explains the diversity of life on Earth. Also, evolution is such a general theory, it is very unlikely to be wrong, given its known explanatory power. People argue over details of how one thing or another fits in with the theory, but educated people don't argue over whether or not the theory is correct in its fundamentals. That issue was settled by about 1930.

If you'd like to see what the "other side" has to say, a good place to start is:

www.talkorigins.org

Check out the FAQ for a start.
 
MacM,

Actually this statement shows your lack of knowldege about the very subject you seem to want to argue. The fact is that 50 years ago (1954) in a university lab inorganic (non-living substance) gases placed into a glass chamber and exposed to electrical discharges (simulating natures lightening and the earths original atmospheric conditions) resulted in the production of "Organic" material (the basis of all living organisims) in a matters of hours after the experiment ensued.

You seem to forget that the experiment was intentional, not random.

Life is no more special than creating gasoline from oil. It is all merely a matter of chemistry.

When life is created by chemical combination, then your statement will have credibility, until then it is nothing more than wild speculation.

Jan Ardena.
 
MacM,

2 - The "Law" that states energy cannot be created nor destroyed:

a - Suggest their own God could not have created energy.

Can you direct me to any scripture that states God created energy?
As far as i know the energy which causes creation is God's own energy.

b - If God could do it what precludes a natural occurance from doing it.?

Energy is neither created or destroyed.
Nature is the consequence of directed energy not the cause.

c - In some manner it did become created so the law is false on its logical surface.

This statement is illogical as it takes energy to act in any way.

d - Proposing a God in lieu of a natural occurance adds nothing to the solution. In fact it complicates it.

How so?

e - Our ignorance of the process is a poor excuse to declare something is impossible or is the act of an unexplainable God.

God is not unexplainable.

N------------>(+s)+(-s) seems to fit a Big Bang definition. That is Creation Ex Nihilo. No God required.

What was the cause of the big bang?

g - To suggest the universe exists as a function of God's purpose and then to dictate that his purpose is to test his creation via humankind is to demean any true God

Which scripture did you get this information from?

Jan Ardena.
 
Godless said:
Hey!! I'm not a scientist, but I'm good at philosophy. So I will give it a try;

If something comes into existence? hence like god? what's god's cause? god came into existence out of nothing? Can you demonstrate how god came to existence without an outside source? Like a supperior god, and on, and on, infinitum.

Godless. :cool:

If I could demonstrate that, would He be God?

Jan Ardena.
 
Bertrand Russell dispensed with the First Cause argument many years ago.
The philosophers and the men of science have got going on cause, and it has not anything like the vitality it used to have; but, apart from that, you can see that the argument that there must be a First Cause is one that cannot have any validity. I may say that when I was a young man and was debating these questions very seriously in my mind, I for a long time accepted the argument of the First Cause, until one day, at the age of eighteen, I read John Stuart Mill's Autobiography, and I there found this sentence: "My father taught me that the question 'Who made me?' cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question `Who made god?'" That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. It is exactly of the same nature as the Hindu's view, that the world rested upon an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they said, "How about the tortoise?" the Indian said, "Suppose we change the subject." The argument is really no better than that. There is no reason why the world could not have come into being without a cause; nor, on the other hand, is there any reason why it should not have always existed. There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/russell_wnc.html
 
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If I could demonstrate that, would He be God?

So ignorance of Gods nature is a requirement of belief?

Well that explains a lot about religious types.
Thanks for the insight.
Dee Cee
 
If something comes into existence? hence like god? what's god's cause? god came into existence out of nothing? Can you demonstrate how god came to existence without an outside source? Like a supperior god, and on, and on, infinitum

Perhaps he never came into existence, but always was.
 
Enigma'07 said:
Perhaps he never came into existence, but always was.


A bit of a problem here with your statement. What you suggest is eternal existance and having never come into existance.

That defys logic. "To exist but never have come into existance" is an oxymoron. But then nobody can claim God or nature have to be logical.

On the other hand what you claim is "Eternal Existance".

On closure inspection you will find that to have existed eternally requires one to accumulate an infinite number of time intervals. That by definition is physically impossible. So what you say doesn't even make good philosphy much less a sound arguement.
 
MacM said:
A bit of a problem here with your statement. What you suggest is eternal existance and having never come into existance.

That defys logic. "To exist but never have come into existance" is an oxymoron. But then nobody can claim God or nature have to be logical.

On the other hand what you claim is "Eternal Existance".

On closure inspection you will find that to have existed eternally requires one to accumulate an infinite number of time intervals. That by definition is physically impossible. So what you say doesn't even make good philosphy much less a sound arguement.
What?
What is good philosphy?
What is closure inspection?
Hey, I write in a very disorganized way. But, you... (As my Pepsi can says) Please try again.
 
Enigma'07 said:
Perhaps he never came into existence, but always was.
Well OK. That is why you can't argue both logic and religion. Religion allows you to say "I believe...." and the argument must end. You must accept that if you play that card it is all you have. You can't go back and argue God or religion in a logical manner. But, if in the end you're right I suppose it won't matter.
 
James R said:
SouthStar,
The big bang debate, by the way, is somewhat different to the issue of Evolution vs. Creationism. Young-earth Creationism has been absolutely refuted by scientists, many times. It cannot be true. There is no argument about that among scientists. It is a simple fact that there is no viable competing scientific theory to the theory of evolution.
I think it is seperate from evolution. (But, not by much.) However when you argue evolution and creationism you have to throw it back in. Because now you are asking "How did I get here?" So to tell the story you must include the history of the known universe.



Sometimes I wonder how many creationists know who would disagree with them.
Sometimes I wonder how many scientists know who they would meet at church.
 
b0urgeoisie said:
What?
What is good philosphy?
What is closure inspection?
Hey, I write in a very disorganized way. But, you... (As my Pepsi can says) Please try again.

Some people do need a bit more verbage. :D

Make that "Closer Inspection".

Philosophy is verbage not supported by scientific evidence. It is talking points leading up to science.

The "Eternal Existance" view isn't even good talking points since it can't be supported logically, mathematically or any current human means of communication or scientific thought. It in fact violates the very intent of the suggestion.

The simple fact is by DEFINITION "Eternal Existance" is impossible.

Human kind must abandon its current lexicon and invent new ones to make such a view even argueable.
 
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