Entropy contradict Evolution

Eyes did evolve gradually, even light sensitive cells without lenses are beneficial for simple things, like telling the difference between up and down, day and night, percieving time, and the change of seasons. Gradually, more definition or visual acuity gave more benefits to the organism, like avoiding predators.

New species do evolve gradually as well, it just takes longer. As soon as a living thing changes enough so that it can no longer breed with similar types, that makes it a new species. After they branch off, they continue to change. Dolphins (the mammal), used to be a wolf-like land creature, and evolved back into an aquatic species, they still retain many attributes of a land creature- they breathe air, they have fingers etc...
 
b0urgeoisie,

Jan you sound like I did my freshman year.

Really?

I have, as discussed in another thread, some formal religious training.

Such as?

Unfortunately, I believed evolution was a principle that was at odds with creationism.

In what way did the misfortune manifest itself?

I used many of the same well intended arguments you and 786 have posted here. But, I promise that the principle of evolution is not paper thin.

I've never stated that the principle of evolution is paper thin, or words to that effect, it appears, the facts are either non-existent, imagined, or not really facts at all. If you can show the facts without piffle, then please be my guest.

Next time you are speaking with a medical Doctor ask him/her about the last time he/she cut a tail of a baby.

Do you think they'll be able to show me where one organism has completely changed into another? Because that is what i'm interested in. ;)

I understand your feelings.

If you did you wouldn't right such a patronisining post, claiming to know how i feel. If you want to "know how i feel" then ask me.
That's how life goes, if you want some knowledge, then approach source.

But, evolution cannot be undermined by any current evidence.

I suggest you give that statement some thought.

But the arguments against it are very poor and naive at best.

Please explain.

Jan Ardena.
 
spidergoat said:
Eyes did evolve gradually, even light sensitive cells without lenses are beneficial for simple things, like telling the difference between up and down, day and night, percieving time, and the change of seasons. Gradually, more definition or visual acuity gave more benefits to the organism, like avoiding predators.

New species do evolve gradually as well, it just takes longer. As soon as a living thing changes enough so that it can no longer breed with similar types, that makes it a new species. After they branch off, they continue to change. Dolphins (the mammal), used to be a wolf-like land creature, and evolved back into an aquatic species, they still retain many attributes of a land creature- they breathe air, they have fingers etc...

See now your talking like Mutation has a mind of it's own.

Mutations don't know what is good or bad. It is completely random. Same with natural Selection. It doesn't have a mind of it's own.

As far as animals go. Animal can't want something and get it. I want to be Superman, what are the chances of that happening? :D

Read your post again, you will realize that you are talking as if the things have mind of its own.
 
786 said:
You haven't answered the question. How do you gradually make an eye?

You just listed animal with or without eyes. I have no interest in that.

I want to know how do you gradually get an eye?

From your response, I would have to assume that part of the problem here is that either your ears, or mind, has not evolved to the highest human capacity. Pun intended.

He just gave example of eyes that are in different stages of evolution. Going from none to light sensitivity to light spots and eyes.

As light senstativey improved surviability that characteristic increases in the population and so does the increased eye function "as and when it occurs".

Ultimately all offspring of such species have improved eye type function. It is a gradual evolution from no eyes to an eagles eye.
 
786 said:
You haven't answered the question. How do you gradually make an eye?

You just listed animal with or without eyes. I have no interest in that.

I want to know how do you gradually get an eye?
This is high school level science. It was the development of those distinguishing characteristics that isolated organisms. The isolation allowed for a continuing divergence of phenotypes.

It's about common ancestry. If you examine each of those groups and link them as they are related, you will find each of them had common ancestry with the previous group. So the transition from no eyes to a bird eye's is gradual and consistent with natural selection.
 
You haven't answered the question.

An eye cannot be gradually formed. Do you have a source that tells you how a eye can be formed gradually.

I see, why you gave me animal with eyes and stuff. But that doesn't show me how an eye can be formed gradually. It could that those animals were supposed to be like that. You cannot link them to an evolutionary chain, unless you can prove that an eye can be formed gradually.
 
786 said:
See now your talking like Mutation has a mind of it's own.

Mutations don't know what is good or bad. It is completely random. Same with natural Selection. It doesn't have a mind of it's own.

As far as animals go. Animal can't want something and get it. I want to be Superman, what are the chances of that happening? :D

Read your post again, you will realize that you are talking as if the things have mind of its own.

Question? Since you state you have taken bilology in Highschool. You are aware, are you not, that the human fetus has gills, that initially they are hermaphrodite, and that identical twins are the product of a single conception which splits before cellular differentiation sets in?

How about conjoined twins. Do you believe that they are intended by design to be joined or can you find that there are many many reproductive mutations that occur by chance.
 
LOL. Go read the other post again. And BTW you are changing the topic.

Can you prove that an eye was formed gradually?

When you share animals, you cannot link them to evolutionary chain, since you do not know if an eye can or cannot be formed gradually.

It could be that some have less effective eyes than others, but you still can't make a claim of evolution if you don't know if an eye can be formed gradually.
 
786 said:
You haven't answered the question.

An eye cannot be gradually formed. Do you have a source that tells you how a eye can be formed gradually.

I see, why you gave me animal with eyes and stuff. But that doesn't show me how an eye can be formed gradually. It could that those animals were supposed to be like that. You cannot link them to an evolutionary chain, unless you can prove that an eye can be formed gradually.
It is true in religion that you cannot heal the blind that will not see. I cannot force you to learn truth. Perhaps, it will be more effective for you to answer some questions.

1. How do you account for babies born with tails?
2. Why do we have gills?
3. Why do whales have leg bones?
4. How do you allow for natural selection that occurs today and not for the selection that has occurred for billions of years?
5. Why are there anaerobic organisms?
6. Do you believe DNA exists? If so what purpose does it serve?
7. What is reverse-transcriptase and what factors have precluded it from changing the gene combinations?
8. Where did phages come from? They are not living.
9. Do you deny that from generation to generation the most desirable traits will become more common?
10. Do you deny that from generation to generation undesirable traits will become less common?
 
You are changing the topic. Is that the best you can do. That is a common evolutionist attitude when refering to things like eyes.
 
786 said:
LOL. Go read the other post again. And BTW you are changing the topic.

Can you prove that an eye was formed gradually?

When you share animals, you cannot link them to evolutionary chain, since you do not know if an eye can or cannot be formed gradually.

It could be that some have less effective eyes than others, but you still can't make a claim of evolution if you don't know if an eye can be formed gradually.
I did answer your question. It is your responsibility to educate yourself. I am not going to write a paper for you explaining the minutia of how each of those organisms can be linked. The eye was formed over countless generations.

A human male, when mated with a human female, can produce almost 70,000,000,000,000 children without getting two that are the same. That does not include any crossing-over. From those children you can imagine that some will run faster than most. In an environment where you are trying to escape predation it makes sense that the fastest will live long enough to have children. The average guys...well...not so much. But, those that are at the slowest end may never be chased. They blend better because they move more gradually and don't attract attention.
When they have children it is natural that the slow will mate with the slow and the fast with the fast. When they do mix, the medium speed children will be eaten as before. In only one generation you can show isolation.
If it is good to be fast, then it is better to be fast and nimble. So after the medium guys are gone than those that are only fast will be next. Until most of the fast guys are both fast and nimble.
If it is good to be slow, then it is better to be slow and small. So the trend continues here too. Soon the people that are left in this group are slow and small. Before, long the isolation is complete. They don't just interbreed reluctantly, they are not capable. They become mechanically isolated.
If all parents on earth had even close to the potential number of children evolution would happen in a few years like it does with bacteria and other fast breeding organisms. But, at 2 1/2 children each, it takes thousands or millions. This is natural selection. It is not Dependant on mutation only. Just recombination demonstrates it is factual.
96% of children that die before birth, die as a result of an unfit genetic code. So enough recombination, crossing-over and mutation occurs to show us it happens. Sometimes the change is good. I think someone gave the cycle-cell example.
The same is true of eyes. From generation to generation light sensitivity became beneficial for some organisms. So phenotypes that could see were selected for. Some could see better than others. So once all could detect light, only those who could detect both light and shapes survived. Then light, shapes and depth. Mutation plays the smallest role. Random assortment, which is not theory but undeniable fact, plays the biggest role.
 
786 said:
You are changing the topic. Is that the best you can do. That is a common evolutionist attitude when refering to things like eyes.

Me = Here, 786, have an apple.
786 = LALALALALALALALALALALALALA You can't make me call it an apple until you show me the tree.
Me = Oh! Turn around it's behind you.
786 = Nope!
Me = I can only show you the tree if you look.
786 = LALALALALALALALALALALALALA You can't make me.
Me = Fine! Don't look I don't care
786 = See you were wrong and I was right
Jan = Way to go 786. You sure showed him.
Me = Well what is it then?
786 = Oh no you don't. I know that trick. You have to prove it to me. Don't change the subject.
Me = (writes a third grade level dialog for you to understand)


You don't have to believe it. But, someday your children will be on a science forum sounding like the guys who say "We've never been to the moon." Or a guy I met in West Virginia who refused to get involved in that devil's tool we call indoor plumbing.
 
786 said:
Is there any proof that an eye can be formed gradually?
Yes. But, in its most primitive forms I wouldn't call it an eye.

Explain what an eye is. Be as detailed as you know how. Maybe then it will be easier for you to see.
 
lol. Extremely good story. You should be a writer. Many kids will read.

The only thing you have done is told me the primitive animal with eyes, and some advanced eyes. But you never discussed the nature of eye. Which is really what I am asking. I am talking about the eye in particular, doesn't matter if it is a good or bad eye. I am talking about the formation of eye in gradual manners. This is what you failed to show.
 
I am not talking about primitive eyes to advanced eyes, but non-eyes to an eye
 
But what do you mean by eye? Just Light sensitivity? Or the particular organ similar to that exhibited by us and some other animals.
 
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