Entertaining Angels Unawares

Raithere, Southstar:

You have a valid question, don't get me wrong:

What about all the accidental deaths and injuries? What about all the natural disasters? How do you know that those starving children in the photos are not starving because their country was devastated in a tsunami that also claimed the life of their father.

I'll give you the straightest answer I know: it's because this world is broken.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now

Question is: Who's going to fix it?
 
woody said:
I watched my father die, it was an ugly sight that I will never forget. I don't go around mad at God.
so did I, and neither did I, as I dont believe in one.
my father when two rungs ( 2ft) up a ladder fell backwards hit his head, no god had a hand in that, just unlucky at the time, I myself crashed into a truck/lorry at speed was somersaulted into the air ( about 15ft) thrown (about 20 to 25 yards) into a field which was down hill, landed on my back.( not as scratch)no god had a hand in that either, my bike a right off, the lorry had slight damage to the back as he was reversing, the driver was unhurt just shocked, it was is fault. I dont hate him, it was just a mistake.
you believe you have an afterlife.
I dont, so I resent the fact my father died before his time he was 56, as I hold all life sacred, where as a xian could not.
 
Woody: "it's because this world is broken."


What do you mean? Is that supposed to make sense? (I'm sorry if you've answered this question before, I'm new so I must have missed it.)
 
Woody said:
Let's put the shoe on your feet. What would you do if you were God?
Use my omniscience and omnipotence to make everyone healthy and happy forever... and maybe toss in a few mysteries to keep everyone interested. I certainly would not condemn billions of innocent people to suffering and death because, as I believe Stephen King put it, "one bitch ate a bad apple".

Go tell that to my sister -- she was married to one of them. She has a son with autism that he takes no interest in, though he is the father. He spends everything he has on new cars, wide screen tVs and anything he can put his paws on. He managed to bankrupt her with over $100 thousand dollars worth of credit card debts.
Sounds like a complete asshole. Personally, I'm for forced sterilization for dickheads like that. This however, is irrelevant in context. Just because your sister and nephew suffer because of this asshole does not mean that every woman and child that are suffering for the same reason. You saw a photo and presumed you understood the cause.

Woody said:
The rest is history, they stayed for the relief effort. Isn't that just like God to take care of his own?

Yeah, I know -- just another one of those astronomical outliers on the bell shaped curve, right? But heh, I think we are starting to see a trend, if you get enough outliers, then the assumption of a bell shaped curve is false -no. Anyone care to do an ANOVA on this probability distribution?
That is just the point, there is no trend. When the data is analyzed you get a random distribution. If people of a particular religion or people who prayed a lot or people with a particular religious passion really were more likely to survive it would stand out in the statistics like a redwood in a prairie. It doesn't exist.

This is the same attention to anecdotal evidence and poor understanding of probability that causes people to believe in psychic prediction, homeopathy, and lucky numbers. Despite the fact that there are mountains of evidence showing these things have no statistical relevance people continue to believe in them. Primarily because, ignoring the real data, they count the hits and forget about the misses.

Applying this to your given scenario, you have attributed your 'hit' with special status meanwhile ignoring or explaining away all the cases where children who slipped fell from the tree and died or were terribly injured. The distribution is random, some children survive unharmed against the odds, and others are injured. There is no trend. All else being equal, members of Buddhist, Islamic, and Atheist families fair as well as those of Christian families. So how then is "God taking care of his own"? How do you explain away his caprice?

I'll give you the straightest answer I know: it's because this world is broken.
If the world is broken, shouldn't God fix it or remove us? If I know the brakes on my car are broken I don't send my treasured family members out for a ride in it.

~Raithere
 
Woody said:
Duendy said,



Answer: In order for a rapist to have a free will, someone else must be violated. In Hell, they will viloate no more. If they haven't asked God to forgive them, I can't feel sorry for their fate, and I'd say they deserve whatever they get. They will learn their lesson, and they have a long time to think about it.



Who loved this poor boy Duendy?

The Holy Mother
 
Fahrenheit,

I see you are a real person, and I am really sorry about your dad. Only someone that has lost a parent can understand how you feel. You don't believe there is a God so you can't be mad at Him. I do believe there is a God, and my earthly father was overly forceful in my child-rearing. There was a time when he would come home from his job and whip me everyday. He did more than just whack me with a belt a time or two. He had bipolar disorder. I got to the point where I didn't want to live anymore. I wished I was anyone but me. I had a huge monster to face everyday when he came home from work. Nothing I did for him was good enough no matter how hard I tried. My mother was afraid to step in on my behalf. I felt abandoned and alone.

So one time, when my father was getting ready for the spanking, I being a 6 year old child, laid into his shin as hard as I could with my shoe, then I socked him in the stomach, and I told him, "You don't know how to whip anyone your just ...." and he whacked me across my back really hard, knocking the wind out of me, then he slung me around violently while lashing me with his belt. I wanted to make him madder but I couldn't speak -- I tried so hard to voice the words "go ahead chicken, you ain't got the guts to kill me", my carefully prepared suicidal speech was not finished yet, but the wind was knocked out of me. I wanted him to kill me.

During that episode, my mother came into the room and intervened. She didn't want my dad to kill me. He was visibly shaken, knowing that he could have killed me. He agreed with her: he needed to go to a mental institution and have his problems dealt with. Here we go again: I guess I'm just another outlier point near infinity.

Let me give you a peek into my persona that I have shared with very few people:

I wanted revenge, and I wanted out of the situation. If my dad killed me, I got both wishes. He would live with the guilt for the rest of his life, and I checked out of here with all the misery gone once and for all. I got real mad at God too, because after all I was only a six year old child, and here I was facing death square in the eyes, and taunting him, daring him, threatening him, to get it over with. It took a tremendous amount of courage on my part, and I was prepared to die as a 6 year old. My dad made me a threat -- if I ever told anyone about his beatings I would get the all time big one like I've never seen before-- in other words he would kill me. So let's just skip the threats and get it over with, I thought to myself. OK daddy let's make good on your threat!

I also had another motive:

If my dad killed me then my mother and sister would finally love me. I felt so neglected and rejected by everyone.

I had a dream:

I dreamed that my dad was in prison where I thought he belonged, and I was so happy. I was laying in a casket in a tuxedo with a beautiful, large, white corsage on my chest -- I was a hero. My mom and my sister said "Poor Woody, he just wanted us to love him", my sister leaned over and smelled the corsage, she said ohhhhh it smells sooo sweet. I noticed a wonderful fragrance in the room. Then they said "poor daddy." I thought to myself what do you mean poor daddy -- he killed me! and I was so furious about it, but I was dead so I couldn't say anything.

I decided my life was useless, and I went to a phsychiatrist when I was 28.

The psychiatrist picked up on the dream real quick:

He said it was the victory of sweet revenge that I smelt, and it was a great feeling in the moment of victory, but in the long run it can never be satisfied. So now I had a monster, and I had to deal with it, or it would destroy my life.

You'll probably say I should hate my dad for all the abuse. I carried a tremendous resentment toward him for many years. The abuse, understandably, caused me problems in my own life that I couldn't face, so I turned to drugs in my late teens and early 20's. I couldn't function as a normal human being.

Is my childhood any better or worse than those starving children in africa and india, I wasn't starving to death, but I lived in constant dread. Which is worse: ongoing physical starvation, or ongoing mental anguish? I think God knows. Can anyone else tell me? I wanted to be dead -- how bad is that on a relative scale?

You might say where was God in all this, where was his love? I can honestly say I felt God's love was far from me, but I made bad choices too. I have another brother, by the way, that threatened to shoot my father and they didn't speak for 20 years.

The psychiatrist asked me what I thought about all the beatings I received as a child, and I told him I had real bad ill-will toward my dad. He asked me if that was right. I told him I felt like it was, but I was in conflict with the bible which commands me to honor my father and mother. I didn't know much about the bible except the ten commandments and a man called Jesus that people thought was God, and a few other trivia that everyone else knows.

The psychiatrist got me off the dope, but I still had resentment toward my dad. Within a year I came to faith in Christ by another life threatening miracle outlier event - another story for another day.

After I came to Christ the very first thing I had to do was forgive my father for what he had done to me. Boy was that a tough assignment! I couldn't do it on my own, so I asked Jesus to help me, and together we did it! I forgave my dad 100%. My mother who had divorced him after 20 something years of marriage, said she didn't see how I could forgive him. I can honestly say, I couldn't have done it on my own. You be the judge -- Could you do it on your own?

Looking back on my life, I say: Jesus if that's what it took to get me in heaven, I thank you for standing by me.

Every tear I cried for my dad when he laid there dieing came from the bottom of my heart, and I hope beyond all hope that Jesus took him to heaven. I can't say it without crying, I'm sorry. I just showed you the worst side of my dad but there were many good things I can say as well. We had a great time doing outdoor events, I still cherish those times. He had a very creative mind too. He did care about me, and vice versa.
 
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Raithere said,

“ Originally Posted by Woody
Let's put the shoe on your feet. What would you do if you were God? ”

Use my omniscience and omnipotence to make everyone healthy and happy forever... and maybe toss in a few mysteries to keep everyone interested. I certainly would not condemn billions of innocent people to suffering and death because, as I believe Stephen King put it, "one bitch ate a bad apple".

Raither, you are on the right track.

I can't get to it this morning, but there are answers. I assure you, I will try to avoid the standard pat christian cliches you have heard too many times before. I feel like each case of pain and suffering must be dealt with at its own level. There will always be exceptions that escape a broad sweeping generalization. That's probably why you feel shortchanged by all the other christians you've spoken with. Given that limitation I'm going to let you blaze your way through. If you want to understand, you have to see it for yourself -- that's reasonable enough.

Here are some things to think about:

What do you think about the God of the bible, sending his only son to die an agonizing death on a cross? The word "excruciating" comes from the word "crucifiction." It is pain and suffering at its worst.

Why did this please God the Father?

I am taking some big steps here, so if I come too far too fast, we will go back to whatever question comes along the way. I am assuming you have heard all the rest before, and you are ready for this one.
 
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Woody said:
Duendy said about the boy that died and was loved:

was the one that loved him.

How do you know Duendy?

Hi Woody, i realy dont want to dwell too much on this, cause it upsets me too much.

All i can say is that from personal experience, and research into pre-patriarchal mythology, i am aware of a deep abiding love that is at the core. and this deep abiding love is the Holy Mother.....
 
Woody said:
Ok Raithere and Southstar,

Let's put the shoe on your feet. What would you do if you were God?



Go tell that to my sister -- she was married to one of them. She has a son with autism that he takes no interest in, though he is the father. He spends everything he has on new cars, wide screen tVs and anything he can put his paws on. He managed to bankrupt her with over $100 thousand dollars worth of credit card debts. And you are going to stand there and tell me I'm a bullshitter. Well the both of you are really getting on my nerves. If I wasn't a christian I would tell you what I think about you and it wouldn't be nice! :rolleyes:

Raithere,

I told you he wouldn't answer the question.
 
Woody said:
Raithere, Southstar:

You have a valid question, don't get me wrong:



I'll give you the straightest answer I know: it's because this world is broken.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now

Question is: Who's going to fix it?

Let us first remember who broke it.

Will you blame the clay for leaking, or will you blame the potter?
 
Southstar,

You want to play the circular blame game. For your benefit:

God created man with a free-will, free-will allows man to be vulnerable to sin. In your mind, how does this make God the author of a sin nature in man? The question in my mind boils down to an issue of CONTROL. Who is in control? If God is in control Adam does not sin. When God is not in control, but rather Adam allows himself to be controlled by Eve, or Eve allows herself to be controlled by a serpent, sin can occur.

Then you might say, but God should have created us with an automatic nature that does not allow us to sin, but then how can you have a free will at the same time? Are free-will & sinless nature two mutually exclusive events? I don't think they are, but, as you can see the argument becomes circular. The only way a circular argument can be nailed down is with an assumption, and I use a scripture:

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Adam was a man. It says God gives man a way out of temptation. Again, who was in control when Adam sinned? The arguments concerning Adam's maturity, intelligence, innocence, or any other characteristic then become totally irrelevant, because the beautiful miracle of faith boils down to obedience at anyone's level, even to little children:

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

According to Jesus A person is saved by childlike faith:

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Does this help answer your question Southstar?

Southstar, You seem to have jumped tracks because I was trying to answer the question about your starving children pictures, and I pose a question to you, the same as I asked fahrenheit in a previous post in this thread:

Is my childhood any better or worse than those starving children in africa and india, I wasn't starving to death, but I lived in constant dread. Which is worse: ongoing physical starvation, or ongoing mental anguish? I think God knows. Can anyone else tell me? As a 6 year old child I wanted to be dead -- how bad is that on a relative scale?

Raithere,

I told you he wouldn't answer the question.
I did answer your question. Southstar, When will you answer mine?

It would be helpful if you read my post to fahrenheit, because I spent nearly two hours preparing it. I am sorry but it looks like you are the one with no answers, and I am wasting my time with you. I'm trying to be patient with you, please try to give my efforts their due consideration in return.
 
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Raithere said:
Use my omniscience and omnipotence to make everyone healthy and happy forever... and maybe toss in a few mysteries to keep everyone interested. I certainly would not condemn billions of innocent people to suffering and death because, as I believe Stephen King put it, "one bitch ate a bad apple".


Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.



If the world is broken, shouldn't God fix it or remove us? If I know the brakes on my car are broken I don't send my treasured family members out for a ride in it.

Men are being tested to see who is worthy to become one of God's angels, in the afterlife, and who is not worthy to become one of God's angels.
At the end of the test, the world will be fixed, as it is prophecied in the bible.

This parable tells the truth of this:

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Explanation of the parable:

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 
Is my childhood any better or worse than those starving children in africa and india, I wasn't starving to death, but I lived in constant dread. Which is worse: ongoing physical starvation, or ongoing mental anguish? I think God knows. Can anyone else tell me? As a 6 year old child I wanted to be dead -- how bad is that on a relative scale?

I don't care to make a judgement about your life based on paragraphs you write on an online forum. I don't even know you.
 
Southstar,

I don't care to make a judgement about your life based on paragraphs you write on an online forum. I don't even know you.

I know it's a little over the head for a small-minded fart like you.

Those pictures you posted, do you know them like family? Are you the missing father?

Got any more "examples" to talk about? :D
 
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Woody said:
What do you think about the God of the bible, sending his only son to die an agonizing death on a cross?
I find it absurd and quite sick.

Why did this please God the Father?
Because God as described in the Bible is vengeful and if his rules are broken someone has to pay... in blood.



ghost7584 said:
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
In other words, "the end justifies the means". Sorry ghost, but this is not a morality I accept from a perfect being.

Men are being tested to see who is worthy to become one of God's angels, in the afterlife, and who is not worthy to become one of God's angels.
Why would God need to test... anything? Tests are used to find out what you don't know. For instance, teachers test their students in order to find out if the students have learned the subject material. But if the teacher was omniscient and already knew whether or not each student had learned the material there would be no need for tests.

~Raithere
 
Raithere,

Why would God need to test... anything? Tests are used to find out what you don't know. For instance, teachers test their students in order to find out if the students have learned the subject material. But if the teacher was omniscient and already knew whether or not each student had learned the material there would be no need for tests.

It's easier to be an armchair coach than a player in any sporting event:

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

You aren't even in the race.

The sporting event is life, and we're in training. But you're still sitting in your chair and eating potato chips and ice cream.
 
Woody said:
I know it's a little over the head for a small-minded fart like you.

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. For, “Whoever would love life
and see good days must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.
 
Woody, iam really aware from the what you shared with us, that you suffered terribly as a small child. no matter how much you told us we cant imagine what you went through and went through in its aftermath

But dont think tht others dont know suffering. EVERTONE has a story to tell

about 3 years ago i saw a neighbour friend have a nervous breakdown. it happened just from seeing a belt. it brough back to her--emphasized by the aline atmosphere she was in (shw had married an english duude was from Geogia and only knoew us)...she went to a quaking weck and it took months for her to feel alright

com-passion-which means shared suffering-means empathizing with others suffering.

this doesn't necessarily patronzingly mean treating poeple with kids gloves though. i will speak my truth which also has come from passion

For example, alttghough i also am aware that our christian fiath was a great help for you, i still see its dogma as causing more trouble than its worth. I.e., the propaganderized guilt inducement, conflict between peoples, and desire to escape from Nature
 
sorry. i missed out an mportant bit. when she saw the belt, it brought back buried memories of being beaten and raped by her father when she was about your age
 
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