Electric cars are a pipe dream
- Thread starter Syzygys
- Start date
Those are cheap Chinese pieces of crap with lead acid batteries. And scooters in general aren't that safe, give me normal motorcycle wheels and the ability to go fast when I need too to get out of trouble. Most commutes don't qualify as a "poker run". Take your hog to that anyway, it's more fun (and your Harley too). This is a serious commuting tool that also looks fun. And they sell them through Best Buy. They are made in Oregon!
If you want me to comment, I will try, but I am physicist, not a chemist. Also I am not sure what you mean by the N2 cycle. Perhaps it includes certain microbes that live on plant roots, like clover, to "fix" N2? Once you have living organisms as part of the process, physical chemistry may not describe well what they can do. For example, I don't think a chemist can convert sugar into alcohol, or at least not economically, if at all.
"... We're on a countdown to delivery--the first Leafs, costing $25,280 after a $7,500 federal tax incentive, will be delivered in December. Those owners are in for a treat, because the Leaf is a delight on nearly every level: It's really fun to drive. The car is almost preternaturally quiet--you can't even hear the gentle motor sound it makes to warn pedestrians at speeds of 20 mph or less. My favorite screen showed a map with a circle that encompassed your driving range--your performance at the wheel helps determine how far you'll get. There's a nicely designed app for the iPhone (or any computer) that allows the driver to remotely stop or start a charge, as well as pre-heat or cool the car's cabin. A screen-based timer can be set to start charging late at night when rates are low, but you can override it with a touch of a button to start charging immediately. Does it have USB iPod access? Of course--did you have to ask?
The Leaf offers faster acceleration than you'd expect from 107 horsepower, a factor of its relatively light weight and aerodynamic design. There's very little regenerative braking effect unless you engage "Eco" mode, but there is a bit of comforting "creep" when you release the brakes at a stoplight. The handling is quite sharp and the ride is nicely balanced--even New York's potholes didn't upset it.
In California, where a $5,000 cash rebate gets the price down to around $20,000.* California is also doing more than any other state to put in a charging network. But other states are also getting involved: EV purchase subsidies of one form or another are also in place inTennessee (where the Leaf will be built starting in model year 2013), Hawaii, Georgia and Colorado. Anyone can get the federal $7,500 tax incentive, and also an up-to-$2,000 tax credit to install a 240-volt charger. But that one expires Dec. 31 unless the dithering Congress manages to renew it. It's too bad we're not Chinese, because over there you can get $8,800 for buying an EV.
a 25-mpg car running on $3 a gallon gas will cost 12 cents per mile to operate, or $1,800 over 15,000 miles. The Leaf or comparable EV operating on electricity at the national average of 11 cents per kilowatt-hour will cost 2.6 cents per mile. That means $396 over 15,000 miles.
The Leaf will come with a 110 charger for any wall outlet, but that's a 16-hour slog. Luckily, 240-volt charging (seven hours from when the warning light comes on) is standardized with the gun-shaped J1772 plug. ..."
From: http://www.forbes.com/2010/10/20/el...ogy-nissan-leaf.html?partner=daily_newsletter
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* What prevents an Oregon resident from crossing the border to buy one? If only CA resident can get the discount, what prevents him from offering a CA resident a small profit to buy and re-sell to him?
The Leaf offers faster acceleration than you'd expect from 107 horsepower, a factor of its relatively light weight and aerodynamic design. There's very little regenerative braking effect unless you engage "Eco" mode, but there is a bit of comforting "creep" when you release the brakes at a stoplight. The handling is quite sharp and the ride is nicely balanced--even New York's potholes didn't upset it.
In California, where a $5,000 cash rebate gets the price down to around $20,000.* California is also doing more than any other state to put in a charging network. But other states are also getting involved: EV purchase subsidies of one form or another are also in place inTennessee (where the Leaf will be built starting in model year 2013), Hawaii, Georgia and Colorado. Anyone can get the federal $7,500 tax incentive, and also an up-to-$2,000 tax credit to install a 240-volt charger. But that one expires Dec. 31 unless the dithering Congress manages to renew it. It's too bad we're not Chinese, because over there you can get $8,800 for buying an EV.
a 25-mpg car running on $3 a gallon gas will cost 12 cents per mile to operate, or $1,800 over 15,000 miles. The Leaf or comparable EV operating on electricity at the national average of 11 cents per kilowatt-hour will cost 2.6 cents per mile. That means $396 over 15,000 miles.
The Leaf will come with a 110 charger for any wall outlet, but that's a 16-hour slog. Luckily, 240-volt charging (seven hours from when the warning light comes on) is standardized with the gun-shaped J1772 plug. ..."
From: http://www.forbes.com/2010/10/20/el...ogy-nissan-leaf.html?partner=daily_newsletter
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* What prevents an Oregon resident from crossing the border to buy one? If only CA resident can get the discount, what prevents him from offering a CA resident a small profit to buy and re-sell to him?
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You do relies the gasoline industry also comes for tax credits and incentives? Its a matter of supporting infrastructure, the existing infrastructure require money to maintain, and certainly building a new one will cost a lot more but that what has to be done, either that or we can continue paying the Saudis and the terrorists until they bled us dry.
You realize that all these incentives go away after a relatively small number of the cars have sold, correct?
It's not like this is an ongoing thing, it's more of a help get the technology going type thing.
As to oil, we produce 6 times more oil ourselves then we get from the Saudis and we get 3 times as much from Canada and Mexico as we do the Saudis. Just sayin.
The net is we use too much oil and we only produce about 1/3 of our needs, so reducing oil imports whether its by converting part of our transportation system to electricity (which only about 1% comes from oil) or by increasing the milage of the cars by Extended range (Volt) or hybrid technology (Prius) or higher CAFE levels, are all means to the same end.
It's not like this is an ongoing thing, it's more of a help get the technology going type thing.
As to oil, we produce 6 times more oil ourselves then we get from the Saudis and we get 3 times as much from Canada and Mexico as we do the Saudis. Just sayin.
The net is we use too much oil and we only produce about 1/3 of our needs, so reducing oil imports whether its by converting part of our transportation system to electricity (which only about 1% comes from oil) or by increasing the milage of the cars by Extended range (Volt) or hybrid technology (Prius) or higher CAFE levels, are all means to the same end.
Yes, but the true cost to the tax payer is significantly higher: First the government is borrowing to hand out that cash and even with current low interest rates that is something (and much more soon when only the FED is buying Treasury bonds and the dollar becomes nearly worthless.) Also don't forget all the paper work to process in DC - they don't work for free there. I would guess the true cost to Joe Taxpayer is north of $10K/ car.
Or better yet, just give out the $7 to the relatively poor and let them decide upon what to speed it. (Ben Bernanke has a helicopter for doing this cheaply.) Not a good idea to pump up the motor scooter production to unsustainalbe levels.
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re post 573 + 577 about NH3 production. At 200 atmos and 200C it shows over 80% production, so why would he want to apply the higher heat ?
also I dont believe the NH3 is or needs to be perfect today, but me 4 one wants to have an alternative sitting waiting? Most people have heard that some mideast oil is gone 2015 ? Batteries wont move heavy trailers of goods long distances but from the website GreenGas.cc will. Which other can we go to once oil and natural gas decline?
China recently went to Australia and bought up 25% of Australias natural gas. That is a lot of NG. Then it says in ten years it will be gone. Sounds like musical chairs to me.
also I dont believe the NH3 is or needs to be perfect today, but me 4 one wants to have an alternative sitting waiting? Most people have heard that some mideast oil is gone 2015 ? Batteries wont move heavy trailers of goods long distances but from the website GreenGas.cc will. Which other can we go to once oil and natural gas decline?
China recently went to Australia and bought up 25% of Australias natural gas. That is a lot of NG. Then it says in ten years it will be gone. Sounds like musical chairs to me.
Good point, but I could argue that keeping the large military supports the petrodollar and also employs lots of people, so there are other benefits to it...
So you are basicly arguing on my side.
I see gasoline and ICE getting more expensive (thus closing the gap) sooner than electric cars getting cheaper. So there will be place for electrics, just not for the right reason...
The Indianapolis 500 race cars (Indy cars) used methanol as fuel for decades up until 2006. :bawl:
Methanol can be made from many sources, including taking carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. It can be used with gasoline (M15-M85) like ethanol (E15-E85).
Electric cars are not a pipe dream, they are one solution among many. :shrug:
Methanol can be made from many sources, including taking carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. It can be used with gasoline (M15-M85) like ethanol (E15-E85).
Electric cars are not a pipe dream, they are one solution among many. :shrug:
Yes, but economically see how here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
Where you can read:
"...Today synthesis gas is most commonly produced from the methane component in natural gas rather than from coal. Three processes are commercially practiced. ... CH4 + H2O → CO + 3 H2 ..."
The mix of CO and hydrogen is "synthesis gas" or commonly called "syn gas." The Carbon that was in coal or natural gas is where the carbon comes from for making methanol, not from the air.
Making methanol for use as a liquid fuel ADDS to the CO2 in the air, but growing sugar cane to make a liquid fuel slightly REDUCES the CO2 in the air as that fuel system stores a lot of carbon in the ocean tankers transporting fuel from the tropic to the Norther markets. Also some carbon remains in the roots of the cane, but most importantly there is lot of carbon stored in the many large tanks at ports and in the distribution system ("gas" station included) plus the huge number of typically half filled car fuel tanks.
Also important, and widely practiced in Brazil, is to burn the crushed cane and use the extra heat (more than the distillation process requires) available by to generate electric power instead of doing so by burning a fossil fuel. Brazil get about 5% of its electric power this way - a huge reduction in CO2 release when it displacing fossil fuel consumption for power generation.
It is not feasible economically, by any man-made process, to remove CO2 from the air but very feasible and economical by growing green plants, such as sugar cane. The alcohol produced from sugar cane is not increasing the cost of food as corn based alcohol is and does not require any subsidies from the tax payer. Yet sugar cane alcohol gives you a lower cost per mile driven and slight more HP in the same motor, but only 70% of the range before needing to fill tank again.
As I have been posting for years -Sugar cane alcohol is the obvious choice for cheaper liquid fuel and less global warming.
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If you burn the cane, it cannot sequester any carbon from the atmosphere.
False.* Some is sequestered all the time even if it it only used to generate electric power. I.e. the field of cane has sequested CO2 in it as do the roots of the cane which remain in the field. There is cane growing is some fields 365 days/ year. I admit that this is a "one time" sequestering if the acreage of planted cane does not increase.
This sequestering is however is of small importance compared to fact you are not using oil or natural gas to generate the power the cane is producing. If that not burnt fossil fuel remains deep in the ground, one can reasonably claim that sugar cane is causing very significantly and annually increasing the sequestered carbon, that would be increasing released into the air if the cane were not burned to make electric power. Note this is not a "one time" effect, but repeats every year!
Of course this argument is at least 10 times stronger if the cane is used to make alcohol fuel for cars which displaces oil (or increasingly, natural gas) used as car fuel.
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* Literally it is true that the cane which is burnt is not sequestering CO2 as and after it is burnt, but it sure did prior to that time and it is constantly being replaced by new growing cane.
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Assuming of course the sugar cane fields sequesters more carbon than the native fields their replacing, if your replacing rain forest with cane then your releasing far more carbon then your could sequester.
Generally the fields being converted to cane growing are abandoned pastures (or in some cases were growing other crops.) The cane is always grown relative near the distillation plant as it is not economical to truck it very far. These plants are also almost always near the major cities for the same reason - less distance to truck the alcohol. In Brazil more than half of this activity takes place in the state of Sao Paulo, hundreds of miles from any major native forests.* (There are a lot of man-made forest near Sao Paulo and ports as paper pulp is a major export and has large domestic use. With the eucalypts that has been developed in Brazil you get an new “crop" every 4 or 5 years. When it is young, it can grow nearly a foot /day! Brazil is the world’s largest supplier of “short fiber” pulp. Regular rows of these trees stretch many miles over hills or for 5 minutes of high speed driving on the hi-ways thru these artificial forests.)
There are some efforts to re-establish some of the native trees in non-commercial forests. Brazil gets it name from an now nearly non existent tree called, in translation, "Wood Brazil" or in Portugese: "Paul Brasil." (I may not have that spelled exactly correctly - my written Portugesse is terrible.) That tree was Brazil's main export 300+ years ago - back when Ohio was also covered with forest and exporting animal skins, especially beaver, for beaver hats. Ohio has less than 10% of its land now in forests and Brazil at least 80% still. Fix your forest destruction before complaining about Brazil's. See footnote to understand you are main cause of the Amazon's destruction.
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* Except for some poor peasant 's tiny crop of cane for his personal use, there is no cane grown commercially (for alcohol or sugar) within 500 miles of the Amazon. The Amazon is being cut illegally, one valuable tree at a time, mainly because rich people in the Northern Hemisphere like to have furniture made of beautiful wood. Immediately after that tree is cut and removed, the illegal logger set fire to the forest to hid his crime. If you want to help stop the destruction of the Amazon forest, don't buy Mahogany etc. wood furniture, etc. One tree is worth more than a year's wages to the illegal cutter. The cutting will not stop until you stop buy his production.
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Another Contender,A Bit Of News From EcoFriend:
Oct.23,2010
Ford plans to revamp the oldest car in its fleet by giving it a green makeover. The Ford Focus will be rolled out in an electric version by late next year. The all-new electric Focus will offer a 100-mile all-electric range and no range-extender gas engine. The company claims that during 2012 it will manufacture between 10,000 and 20,000 electric versions of the car.
Apart from the all-electric Ford Focus, the car will also come in a gas engine version. It is expected to get 40 mpg with an automatic transmission and can run on E85 fuel if desired. There are speculations that Ford will also add two more hybrids and a plug-in hybrid to its lineup. Let’s hope the new all-electric Ford Focus gives a tough competition to the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt.
http://tinyurl.com/2aed4we
Oct.23,2010
Ford plans to revamp the oldest car in its fleet by giving it a green makeover. The Ford Focus will be rolled out in an electric version by late next year. The all-new electric Focus will offer a 100-mile all-electric range and no range-extender gas engine. The company claims that during 2012 it will manufacture between 10,000 and 20,000 electric versions of the car.
Apart from the all-electric Ford Focus, the car will also come in a gas engine version. It is expected to get 40 mpg with an automatic transmission and can run on E85 fuel if desired. There are speculations that Ford will also add two more hybrids and a plug-in hybrid to its lineup. Let’s hope the new all-electric Ford Focus gives a tough competition to the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt.
http://tinyurl.com/2aed4we
Any information as to where the batteries will come from and what type?
Also, now that China has reduced by 70% the export of the rare Earths and this has caused frantic hoarding, that has sent the price of some up by a factor of three, where will Ford get the strong light weight magnets for the motors?
I don't know if electric cars for the masses are a "pipe dream" or not, but Ford making even 5000 in 2012 sure is. It seems likely to me that by the start of 2012, the US militray will be the only one in US allowed access to some of these very critical elements (essential, for example, for the tiny motors that drive the steering fins on "smart bombs")
More than a year ago, I posted the following at: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2377144&postcount=186
China is being a very smart capitalist. They will dribble out 30% of recent exports of critical rare Earths and get 4 or 5 times more payment for the limited supply.
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20K cars will solve our problems. I think they do it because of the California law that requires carmakers to make a certain % electric. Otherwise they don't give a hoot...
Anyhow, I have a Ford Focus and with 87 gasoline I get 27 mpg most. If I put better gas in it I can rise it a few miles but I don't think I can make it better than 32 mpg...