Education by force?

Should children be forced to go to school?


  • Total voters
    27
I once asked a sheep herder whose young son who was ten years old and herded sheep all day if he didn’t think that his young son should go to school to learn and get the opportunities that a good education provides so that when he was older he could get a good job. The old man looked at me and said, “My son already has a job, and he didn’t have to pay for the education to get it, and he will have it the rest of his life and that’s all he needs to survive on”.

Who could argue with him and just told him if he sees Osama please call 911, he just looked at me all confused, and I responded to his look by saying “you need the 411 on 911”

So what I am getting at is I guess it all depends on where you live to answer this question of forced education.
 
So what I am getting at is I guess it all depends on where you live to answer this question of forced education.

Well, you gave us a cute little story, but it actually missed the whole point, didn't it? In almost any culture in the world, being forced to do something is almost universally thought to be wrong.

Even the sheepherder in your cute little story understood that ...his son didn't need it, so why be forced to do something that's not needed or wanted.

I would also question the ideal of "for the common good" in trying to justify forcing citizens to do something that they don't want to do.

What I do find interesting is how many people could/would justify forcing something onto others, but would raise holy hell if someone tried to force them to do something against their will. Shoe on the other fuckin' foot, huh?

Baron Max
 
Well I wasn’t trying to get tell a cute little story here, and I admit my thoughts when put into words at times get lost in translation. And I didn’t miss the point as much as didn’t convey it properly. So let me say, Yes being forced to do anything against your will is never considered right, although I am sure some people will argue this, like forcefully preventing someone from killing themselves, even if it’s for their own good.
I have to admit it appears you really like debate and argue a side of an issue even if you personally disagree with it and I commend you on that Barron.
 
... So let me say, Yes being forced to do anything against your will is never considered right, ...

And yet, in any modern society, its citizens are being forced to do different things all the time ...laws and rules by the gazillions, with cops and courts to enforce those rules and laws.

But, see, we overlook most of those laws because we've been conditioned to accept them "in the name of the common good". And thus you can see how easy it is to extend that "common good" thingie to include almost everything and anything that some people want! As you mentioned, in USA society, we're not even permitted to kill our-fuckin'-selves! ..in the name of the "common good". How dumb is that???

I have to admit it appears you really like debate and argue a side of an issue even if you personally disagree with it and I commend you on that Barron.

Well, you'll probably get tired of it, too, like most people on the site! Few people like to see things from another perspective ...it just grates on their usual sense of right n' wrong, good n' evil, and all that idealistic bullshit. :D

Baron Max
 
I agree with you regarding being conditioned to accept most of the laws and stupid rules and god forbid you ever stand up to a law enforcement officers or prosecutors because they are not bothered by truth or justice, only winning and most people now are to conditioned not to fight this or do anything about the power these people now have and regularly abuse. I once saw a man smoking on an open outdoor train platform and a police officer told him it was illegal for him to smoke in public facilities such as train stations, the guy argued and refused to out his cigarette resulting in getting pepper sprayed and arrested with several charges including resisting arrest. (fighting for your freedom is now a crime)

I was reading your comments about child porn and freedoms and how you were debating the issue and defending some aspects of the subject even though you yourself are against it. Very interesting!

I also find the current problems in Mexico to be something very curious that I suspect will soon carry over to the USA, and I am referring to the criminal “Narcos” being so tired of the lies and corruption within “The Authorities and the law” that they have simply begun killing police officers with no regard to their position of authority or the consequences for killing them. Killing cps, Now that’s a true statement of standing for what you believe in!
 
how is it brainwashing?
I was brainwashed to believe in absolute time, empty space, gravity, a constant speed of light, massless photons, black holes, neutron stars, plate tectonics, a hot convecting mantle, biogenic hydrocarbon origin.

Those "teachers" should be tried for child abuse.
 
I was brainwashed to believe in absolute time, empty space, gravity, a constant speed of light, massless photons, black holes, neutron stars, plate tectonics, a hot convecting mantle, biogenic hydrocarbon origin.

Those "teachers" should be tried for child abuse.

No they shouldn't they taught you good science just because your to stupid to get it doesn't change that fact.



and you question gravity?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
 
They couldn't read. And they couldn't form a society that depended on literacy.

Children could read prior to the introduction of compulsory public education. It was a skill passed down from parents (and relatives) to children.

And teach them to read, do math, comprehend science and physical reality, understand the history and politics of their society, etc. Sure.

Why is that important? Because you say it is? Because Big Brother says so?

They took advantage of an uneducated peasantry.

And they used public education (or should I say, *re-education*) to push their own agenda. 'Education' in Communist Cambodia used to involve encouraging the children to destroy temples and dob on any anti-Communist dissidents.

There will always be educated evildoers - education is power, and if in the possession of only a few, it is power in the hands of those few. Evildoers are always attracted to power. An educated peasantry is the only defense.

You want to educate peasants and hence produce more educated evil-doers, so that you can defend society against educated evil-doers? Err yeah, that makes sense.

By the way, do you adopt the same philosophy towards gun control? Let's force all those peasants to carry guns, so that power is no longer in the hands of a few evil-doing elite!

Hence my interest in imposing a social contract obligation on the parents of the children in my society.

Yes, we all know that you want to impose on others.

They have no right to enjoy the benefits of my culture and civilization, while putting it at risk from any educated despot who comes along.

You have no right to enjoy the benefits of my culture and civilization, while putting it at risk from any educated despot who comes along. That's precisely why you shouldn't educate your children. The fewer potential educated despots, the better. :D
 
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Who decides which school? Where? What subjects? In which language? What emphasis? What input does the child have in these decisions?

i decided in conjunction with my kids which school they went to, however the final say on the matter fell to me, i did listen to them and i made a decision on what they said, if for example they said to me, "i want to go to so and so school because my friends are going there" then i would have to look at the school. i decided for my daughter which school had the better history department, and the school she attends now has the better history department,

my younger son, went to the closest school for him, because of certain medical reasons and personal reasons, he wanted to attend that school anywa so that was part of the battle. The school he attends has a brilliant ADHD scheme and the teachers are tolerant and patient with him,

my oldest child now attends college and he had to go where he was sent because that was where his course was so he had no choice,

so all in all i think it has somthing to do with the children and the perants, the lessons are planned out by govermant guidlines and rulings, for example now children have somthing called "super learning day" where they learn about drugs, sex, and life in general, because that was a ruling by the goverment.
 
The feds won't allow it! Vermont, I think, has been trying to cecede from the union for decades. Montana and Idaho have also explored it. Texas has tried it and will probably continue to try.

Our tyrannical federal government system won't allow it. Remember the Civil War? Some southern states tried to quit the union, but the north wouldn't allow it!! Millions of people died trying that ...and lost the fight. Now we have New Yorkers trying to tell Texans how to live!!

Baron Max

Right, so all that shit about Divided we fall is all BS right?,Do you really want to go back to Civil War state ?

All those are just made up of people ...just regular ol' people. Are you saying that we should trust all people? Or are you saying that people with some kind of government title are instantly transformed into "good" people? ...with no individual flaws like greed or lying or self-interest?

If you check history, you'll see that in the 1930s, the German people had the same trust that you suggest for Hitler and the Nazis. Wasn't such a good idea, was it?

Baron Max

Trust but Verify, that is built in democracies. The system of checks and balances ensures that we can replace anyone who violates their trust in normal conditions What the german people experienced was in no way normal.

A bloated, overly-bureaucratic government is not necessary for 'unity'. European countries in the medieval ages had far more fragmented systems of government than Western nations today (shit, some monarchs were essentially at the mercy of a bunch of quarreling noblemen), yet their citizens were more feverently nationalistic and unified than many present day nanny states, such as Australia.

Really, I can't say anything to someone who doesn't realise that the power to change that is through the vote. Consider this: Perhaps nationalism divides us more greatly than a nanny state.
 
Should children be brainwashed into going to school? Why send them to school before they are old enough to decide if they want to go there?

Well, how old should they need to be to decide for themselves? Eighteen? thats too late anyways.

Can you really trust a 1st grader to make a good choice?
 
And yet, in any modern society, its citizens are being forced to do different things all the time ...laws and rules by the gazillions, with cops and courts to enforce those rules and laws.

But, see, we overlook most of those laws because we've been conditioned to accept them "in the name of the common good". And thus you can see how easy it is to extend that "common good" thingie to include almost everything and anything that some people want! As you mentioned, in USA society, we're not even permitted to kill our-fuckin'-selves! ..in the name of the "common good". How dumb is that???



Well, you'll probably get tired of it, too, like most people on the site! Few people like to see things from another perspective ...it just grates on their usual sense of right n' wrong, good n' evil, and all that idealistic bullshit. :D

Baron Max

Baron Max, go commit suicide. It'll be for "the common good." Yah you go and teach those feds whose boss, commit suicide and you'll really stick it to the man. Lol.
 
Right, so all that shit about Divided we fall is all BS right? Do you really want to go back to Civil War state?

Consider this: Perhaps nationalism divides us more greatly than a nanny state.

No, it's not nationalism that divides us, it's based almost solely on the number of people in that nation. In the old days, when there were very few people, a consensus was relatively easy. In modern times, with the vast numbers of people, all with differing ideas and thoughts and ideasl, unity is all but impossible.

So perhaps "Divided we stand" rather than the other way 'round?

Baron Max
 
I second River Ape.

There is no criterion attributable to children, besides sheer age, to justify their imprisonment in 'schools' that cannot also be applied to some segment of the adult population. School was a misery that set me so far back I will never recover. Most of what I have learned I learned outside of school, in my leisure time.
 
School was a misery that set me so far back I will never recover.

How can you know that? How can you know what some "alternate" world "might" have been?

Most of what I have learned I learned outside of school, in my leisure time.

I would suggest that you learned a lot more than you think in school. In fact, you probably learned what was better to learn later in life. Education is not a single entity, it's a long, involved process of building upon other essential educational foundations.

Baron Max
 
(Insert title here)

Baron Max said:

How can you know that? How can you know what some "alternate" world "might" have been?

For most people, although Zap might be an exception—I can't speak for him specifically, in other words—it's an issue of wasted resources. That doesn't necessarily mean school itself; I learned a bunch of really weird ideas in school that have taken me years to correct. And, it's true, if I hadn't been spending so much effort and energy coping with those expectations and ideas, I would have been doing something else.

Perhaps Zap is erroneous to presume that he will never recover, but I think you're also making a mistake by treating the issue so simply.
 
... And, it's true, if I hadn't been spending so much effort and energy coping with those expectations and ideas, I would have been doing something else.

Sure, but you don't know what that "something else" would have been, do you?

And see, that's exactly the point ...you don't know what would have been. You might have become the nation's worst serial killer ...and you have no proof otherwise. You can make up all kinds of cute little scenarios, even base some of them on your "personality", yet all of what you are was built upon what you were before, NOT what you "think" you would have been.

Baron Max
 
cube said:
Children could read prior to the introduction of compulsory public education.
No, they couldn't.
cube said:
Why is that important? Because you say it is?
Becasue the alternative is tyranny, sooner or later.
cube said:
And they used public education (or should I say, *re-education*) to push their own agenda. 'Education' in Communist Cambodia used to involve encouraging the children to destroy temples and dob on any anti-Communist dissidents.
They destroyed the public schools, killed the teachers, and forbade the education of children other than a few elite.
cube said:
You want to educate peasants and hence produce more educated evil-doers, so that you can defend society against educated evil-doers? Err yeah, that makes sense.
Yes, it does. You can't keep the few from becoming educated, you can only prevent their education from endowing them with power the rest do not have, as in Cambodia - a good example.

The wealthy and powerful will see to the education of their children. They will force their children to go to school, if necessary. And if your neighbors have not seen to theirs as well, by some means, poverty and tyranny will be your fate.
 
I think there is too much burden of school on children. They have no childhood anymore.
 
Back to the larger question

Baron Max said:

Sure, but you don't know what that "something else" would have been, do you?

And see, that's exactly the point ...you don't know what would have been.

And here I was trying to write a short post. You make a point that I deliberately left out.

Not that it's unimportant. You are correct insofar as the point goes. I cannot guarantee that the something else would have been a wise or worthwhile investment. But that, in and of itself, changes nothing about the fact that certain resources are wasted in an effort to recover from obligatory damage.

In the larger question of "education by force" ... well, I see the underlying abstraction as a bit off to begin with. Still, though, part of the problem is what people often refer to as "nickel and diming". We cough up money for schools grudgingly. Another aspect is that fact isn't necessarily democratic. For instance, I'm sorry if people in Kansas feel disrespected by science, but creationism ain't a science. Hell, I went to a religious school, and my biology teacher wasn't so stupid. He saw no disagreement between Biblical creation and Darwinism.

In the meantime, something strange happens. A school board decides on a curriculum. Later, someone who didn't offer their two cents during that process (it wasn't worth their time, maybe), throws a fit. The school board accommodates.

In Oregon, a book by Sherman Alexie was just pulled from the curriculum because someone didn't like the fact that the story mentions masturbation. In New York, a school district actually ripped several pages out of the books because a parent objected.

You know what the sexiest book I read in high school was? The Scarlet Letter. And it's acceptable. Why? Because among the possible morals of the story is that sex corrupts.

Now turn around and look at American culture. A "wardrobe malfunction"? Oh, please, why was that such a big deal? A good part of our cultural confusion about sex comes from the fact that we never, as a culture, deal honestly with that part of ourselves.

History? I've mentioned before the "Lone Star" editions of textbooks, in which American history is tailored to meet the approval of Texas school boards and parent groups. This has the effect of perpetuating certain myths, including the Myth of Southern Reconstruction and the Myth of the Empty Continent. Most students are in college before they learn that ninety-five percent of the indigenous population was wiped out in the passing of a generation. Some students never learn that American tribes learned how to scalp from white people, who set up a bounty system in order to enlist the indigenous population to wipe itself out. I don't know a single person who knew, without being told, that the purchase of Manhattan Island for twenty-four dollars was bogus; the people paid for it had no claim on the land. Hell, when schools started teaching Columbus according to the man's diaries and logs, people threw a fit. How dare we speak so poorly of such a hero. How can you call him a butcher? Well, it's ... it's sort of in his journals. That is, written in his own hand.

Declining arts programs, increased specialization. Especially during the 1990s, the phrase "well-rounded education" was anathema.

So I think the underlying question of "forced education" cannot be fairly considered without giving some attention to the nature of that education.

Give the schools the money they need to do the job right. Stop screwing with the curriculum to appease irrational demands. Let's see what happens and go from there. But we won't know until we try, right?
 
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