Education by force?

[Asguard]

From what I've read it would seem that young children have a far better ability to absorb, to learn, to aquire skills and knowledge than when we're older. Most language learning is done very early. By that premise alone it makes sense to school people when they are young.
Also they have a greater ability to do as they are told than later! Less disruptive, less likely to answer back, less likely to question whats on offer...all that makes them better students, in a more efficient classroom

i disagree with your last statement. Uni students tend to be as a group VERY well behaved (well except for arts students but who counts them) when compared to say grade threes (thats what my mum teaches). Further more QUESTIONING what your told is vital to eductation. If you arnt taught to question and resurch to double and tripple check then it really IS indoctrination rather than eductation

 

[distantcube]

From what I've read it would seem that young children have a far better ability to absorb, to learn, to aquire skills and knowledge than when we're older. Most language learning is done very early. By that premise alone it makes sense to school people when they are young.
Also they have a greater ability to do as they are told than later! Less disruptive, less likely to answer back, less likely to question whats on offer...all that makes them better students, in a more efficient classroom

So school is a means of producing obedient little adults, who are completely submissive to authority figures? What a noble goal, especially given that the United States was founded by disobedient little adults who had very little respect for authority!

This raises the question. If it's appropriate to force schooling on a child to 'make them obedient', then shouldn't it also be appropriate to force religious doctrine on a child for similar reasons?

I think that's the point of this thread, to be honest. If religious indoctrination of a child is bad, then why is secular indoctrination good? Both force a child to accept particular ideologies as gospel, and both force a child to submit to authority (whether that authority be parents, teachers, the government, or God).

 

[Bricoleur]

I knew I'd set the cat amongst the pigeons there! No I don't mean just to passively accept whats told, more that an uninterrupted classroom is better for a group to learn in. A learning environment, not a free-for-all. Yes that will upset the individualists out there, where your rights over everyone else in a social group has more merit, but one-on-one education is not possible economically, so a viable option is a concensus all aiming at the same outcome.
Call it indoctrination, but I believe one of the most important functions of parents and formal schooling is to socialise. At some point that must mean bending to a proscribed norm in behaviour. To do otherwise will end in anarchy.
Hey Asguard, watch it with the art student jokes!! I might take offence.

 

[Asguard]

distantcube, thats a load of crap. Being taught to SPEAK and read is great, i WISH my teacher had been copitant, my spelling has hampered me my inter life all because i had an incopitant prep teacher. Science is again compleatly different from religion in that it treaches you to question.

The whole high school english curiculam isnt about spelling and gramma, its about CRITICAL THINKING, questioning how your being manipulated by a piece of writing. These are vital skills in being a citizan.

Where the ability to manipulate is in history and citizanship type subjects and NON science based eductation of things like reproductive health. Its why i was so angry at the former goverment's (and even this goverment's) national curiculam in history. English (though i doubt goverments like the critical thinking componants and i strongly want them to remain), maths, even science go right ahead but there is to much ability to indoctrinate in history and the atached citizanship units. This is not to say they arnt important but it should be universities who determine the school curiculam in these area's based on SCIENCE, not goverments.

education is vitally important to life, not just to work and its VITALLY important to maintaining a robust democrasy as well. The stupid are easerly controled, look at the US

 

[Asguard]

Hey Asguard, watch it with the art student jokes!! I might take offence.

your australian arn't you?

Both my parents and my sister have science degrees and im studying one, the bias against the "toilet paper degrees" comes from that

 

[James R]

So school is a means of producing obedient little adults, who are completely submissive to authority figures?

For those who believe this, I'd like to ask: how do you think it's working out so far? Are schools, in fact, producing little adults who are completely submissive to authority?

And did your school have that effect on you? If not, why not?

 

[Bricoleur]

your australian arn't you?

Both my parents and my sister have science degrees and im studying one, the bias against the "toilet paper degrees" comes from that

Yeah I can take a joke.
I work in an arts dept. I even teach there part time. Generally the students want to be there, and inject the place with energy, creativity and originality. Despite going through formal schooling!

 

[distantcube]

distantcube, thats a load of crap. Being taught to SPEAK and read is great, i WISH my teacher had been copitant,

Wait. You were forced to attend school, yet despite this you can't read or write properly? Wow, the system works!

Perhaps if you had been educated by your parents, they would have taken a genuine interest in your partial illiteracy, and put in the effort to try and rectify it?

Science is again compleatly different from religion in that it treaches you to question.

We are not talking about science, we are talking about school. Were you taught to question in primary and secondary school, or simply to shut the hell up and regurgitate what the teachers forced on you?

The whole high school english curiculam isnt about spelling and gramma, its about CRITICAL THINKING,

High school is about submitting to authority, grooming children to be good sheeple, and getting the kids out of their parents hair for 8 hours a day.

 

[distantcube]

For those who believe this, I'd like to ask: how do you think it's working out so far? Are schools, in fact, producing little adults who are completely submissive to authority?

Yes. Enforced schooling is merely another mechanism of government control. "Send your children to government schools, where the government's agents have complete control over them!"

And did your school have that effect on you?

Yes. Thankfully there was a rebound effect after leaving secondary school and attending university, where I became distrustful of authority figures and their paternalistic and condescending desire to 'help' me. No thanks, I can help myself.

 

[Bricoleur]

Yes. Enforced schooling is merely another mechanism of government control. "Send your children to government schools, where the government's agents have complete control over them!"



Yes. Thankfully there was a rebound effect after leaving secondary school and attending university, where I became distrustful of authority figures and their paternalistic and condescending desire to 'help' me. No thanks, I can help myself.

I think there are acceptable degrees of control, to use your term. Call it social conditioning, but without parameters, the attaining of an education would be impossible. By your own admission you have accepted that stance.
Attending university is still falling under the same dominant ideology inherent in the education system. We have the minority holders of knowledge/power and the greater mass unempowered.
You read and cite references to an agreed system put in place by the dreaded authority figures hundreds of years ago, and to buck that will only result in you failing.
You attend a lecture theatre in a designated way, ie in a seat, facing forward, isn't that the result of being indoctrinated along the way?
I know I'm exaggerating, but for you to dismiss one part of the system and accept the other whole-heartedlyI find contradictory. Surely the first set you up for the second?
To graduate (and I assume you mean that, not simply being on campus and absorbing ad hoc) would imply you have attended to the requisite assessments/examinations, and deemed suitable by the system. In other words you have been controlled.
I could take you on your last words, that you helped yourself, entirely. A self-made person, disregarding/eschewing all influences, assistance, and learning as offered by the tertiary education system?

 

[Challenger78]

Should children be brainwashed into going to school? Why send them to school before they are old enough to decide if they want to go there?

Usually, we just send them there, They can choose to drop out at the age of 15.

I think society should force the little bastards to go to school, and the school system should force the little bastards to learn, too!

We can't have people deciding for themselves what's good for them or not. Geez, that's freedom ...we can't have any of the damned commie concepts in modern society!!

Force is the only way to gain the freedoms that we enjoy!

Baron Max

I thought you were being serious.
Schools do not and should not aim to instill specific religious or ideal values, schools should aim to install critical thinking faculties.

But in a sense, you're right, Freedom is the right to be unhappy. By not going to school from the beginning, you are dooming yourself (unless you're someone really gifted/simple), to a late start in life.
You're in essence Disadvantaging yourself from everyone else.
One Freedom is the right to be unhappy. Go ahead.

Go for it, but the state should still support schooling, Those who then do not go to school, are wasting their taxes.

 

[distantcube]

Bricoleur:

You attend a lecture theatre in a designated way, ie in a seat, facing forward, isn't that the result of being indoctrinated along the way?

I chose to attend my lectures and practicals at university. A child, and their parents, don't have the luxury to choose whether the child attends primary/secondary school. The expectation is forced upon them by the government, and if the parents do not comply, coercion and force are used to remove the child from its parents and place it in the care of someone who will send them to school.

And no one in this thread has answered my question. If indoctrination of a child at the hands of a secular school is acceptable, why isn't the indoctrination of a child at the hands of a religious group acceptable? The same people who complain about religious indoctrination seem to have few qualms about secular indoctrination. Why? Because you don't agree with what religious people and organisations teach?

 

[iceaura]

If indoctrination of a child at the hands of a secular school is acceptable, why isn't the indoctrination of a child at the hands of a religious group acceptable? The same people who complain about religious indoctrination seem to have few qualms about secular indoctrination. Why? Because you don't agree with what religious people and organisations teach?

Religious indoctrination in religiously oriented schools is generally accepted, at least legally.

As for secular schools: It's not indoctrination - in so far as it's actually secular, anyway.

And no, children should not be forced to attend school. Their parents, however, should be forced to see that they are educated somehow.

 

[distantcube]

Religious indoctrination in religiously oriented schools is generally accepted, at least legally.

Legally, yes. But atheists have a tendency to moan and groan about 'religious indoctrination' of children by relatives and organisations.

As for secular schools: It's not indoctrination - in so far as it's actually secular, anyway.

Indoctrination need not be religious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.

How is that *not* an accurate description of what occurs in primary and secondary schools around the world? Children are taught not to question authority, to accept everything they are taught without question. This includes scientific, political, and historical opinion. It also includes 'acceptable social behaviour'.

And no, children should not be forced to attend school. Their parents, however, should be forced to see that they are educated somehow.

What sort of education should a parent be required to give their children? Let's say my parents own an olive oil business, and they want to groom me to take over that business when I reach adulthood. They want to teach me how to read and write, how to budget, and other business practices. They don't want to waste their time on what they regards as 'frivilous BS', such as geography, history and science. Is that fine by you?

 

[Baron Max]

Education in the USA is an interesting topic ...I don't know much about them thar damned furriners, tho!

But tell me this ...should the people of, say New York City and Los Angeles, have any voice in what the schools in, say Kansas, teach their children? Religious or otherwise? How is it that "we" seem to think that people/voters/gov officials from all over the nation should dictate what a school district in Kansas teaches their children? If the parents and the people of Podunk, Arkansas want to teach their children something, why is it anyone else's business? Especially someone in New York Fuckin' City?

Baron Max

 

[cosmictraveler]

The wealthy have always sent their children to private schools so that their children would get a better education than that of the masses. So just remember who controls everything and see that they wouldn't be sending their children to private schools unless they thought it was a good idea to do so. The uneducated have always been preyed upon by the rich and educated and by not educating our children things can and will only become worse. I don't like the way schools educate the children today but some education is better than none at all.

 

[(Q)]

Should children be brainwashed into going to school? Why send them to school before they are old enough to decide if they want to go there?

Brainwashed? No Sam, YOU are brainwashed by your religion, which overrides your education, if you actually had any.

So, how are children to make informed decisions without an education, Sam? The Quran?

 

[S.A.M.]

So, how are children to make informed decisions without an education, Sam?

Using their natural facilities of course. Everyone has them surely? Or do you need to be brainwashed in a particular way of thinking before making "informed" decisions?

 

[(Q)]

Using their natural facilities of course. Everyone has them surely? Or do you need to be brainwashed in a particular way of thinking before making "informed" decisions?

That would almost be funny if it wasn't so stupid, Sam.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, isn't it?