Drowning in fear

[Baron Max]

Look I'm not a fan of psycho-babble but how is one to discuss the fear of dieing without contemplating the psychological ramifications.

That's exactly what psycho-babble is! ...discussions about something that you know nothing about. ...forming hypotheses based on virtually nothing but your own thoughts - no data, no studies, no evidence, no nothing. Psycho-babble.

If you want to discuss something with any degree of intelligence, you first keep your mouth shut until you've fully studied the subject, done exhaustive research, and examined every avenue of understanding. If not, then a discussion is nothing but psycho-babble ...and is essentially worthless, ...and at worst case, might actually be harmful.

It's not about being rewarded per say, it's about not having this nagging worry that one day we will full stop end.

I've said over and over again ....I know of no one who is nagged daily about dying, do you? In fact, quite the opposite ....we usually have derogatory terms for people who worry all the time about dying. Even old farts like me seldom even think about dying and death ...and I'm a lot closer to it than you are, I'll bet.

All religions alleviate this worry completely - surely THAT much we can agree to?

No, religions don't "alleviate" that fear, because that fear is essentially non-existent in the normal, average, every-day person.

And there must be a reason for this across the board commonality.

We're all human ...with human feelings and thoughts and questions. If you examine most any other thing that humans do, you'll find similar commonalities.

Baron Max

 

[Enterprise-D]

I disagree. Just check the posts here at sciforums ...the large majority are people trying to convince others that there is no god, not the other way around. And I've found that to be true in reality, too.

Baron Max

Sciforums - as you may have noted - is a skewed sample. Clearly when fundamentalist folk like Sandy and LG swoop in and expect everyone to suddenly convert to some sort of theism, they'll get heavy resistance from the majority. But I would grant you the point only that it seems that non-believers are trying to convert believers; only as far as the resistance and argument is concerned. I have yet to see an athiest on this forum attempt to cajole or bamboozle any theist out of his belief.


I completely disagree that this translates into real life:

1. 84% of the world are theists.
2. Christian churches send out their minions to "invite" guests to their sermons (best example Church of LDS aka Jehovah's Witnesses)...
3. Islamic countries force conversion to Islam or impose a second class status on the 'infidel'.

Germany is the only country that comes close to encouraging the abandonment of religion thru government action, and I can only say this as of yesterday when someone linked the article in which Germany refuses to allow filming of a Tom Cruise movie in their country due to Cruise's well known link with scientology.

 

[Michael]

How's this:

ANTHROPOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE

Searching the origins of society and religion, writing the "history of their evolution," seemed to be the most popular topic of nineteenth-century anthropology. Death and the belief in the soul and the spirits play important roles in the evolutionist-intellectual theories of origin written by Edward Burnett Tylor in 1871 and other scholars of the nineteenth century.

Tylor assumed that in the background of the appearance of the soul beliefs, there may be such extraordinary and incomprehensible experiences as dreams and visions encountered in various states of altered consciousness, and the salient differences between the features of living and dead bodies. In his view, "the ancient savage philosophers" were only able to explain these strange, worrying experiences by considering humans to be a dual unity consisting of not only a body but of an entity that is able to separate from the body and continue its existence after death (Tylor 1972, p. 11). Tylor argues that this concept of spirit was later extended to animals, plants, and objects, and it developed into "the belief in spiritual beings" that possess supernatural power (polytheism) (ibid., p. 10). Eventually it led to monotheism. Tylor, who considered "the belief in spiritual beings," which he called animism, the closest definition and starting point of the concept of religion, argues that religion and notion of death were brought into being by human worries concerning death.

According to Hertz, the deceased enters the mythic world of souls "which each society constructs in its own image" (Hertz 1960, p. 79). Hertz emphasized that social and emotional reactions following death are also culturally determined, and called attention to numerous social variables that might considerably influence the intensity of these reactions in different cultures (i.e., the deceased person's gender, age, social status, and relation to power).

In one and the same society the emotion aroused by death varies extremely in intensity according to the social status of the deceased, and may even in certain cases be entirely lacking. At the death of a chief, or of a man of high rank, a true panic sweeps over the group . . . On the contrary, the death of a stranger, a slave, or a child will go almost unnoticed; it will arouse no emotion, occasion no ritual. (Hertz 1960, p. 76)

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh good you're not alone in your delusions.

I am more concerned by the death of a close friend than that of a stranger? oooh thats a breakthrough.

 

[Michael]

Oh good you're not alone in your delusions.

I am more concerned by the death of a close friend than that of a stranger? oooh thats a breakthrough.

You're in a catty mood today

No it may also be a leader, someone you wouldn't have ever personally known.

Anyway, those examples aside, why do you suppose that all religions regardless of beleif promise people a life after death? Doesn't that suggest that people need this to be an aspect of their religous beleif?

Well? Why?
Michael

I once asked a guy in the lab, a Xian, if he would keep worshiping God if he didn't get to go to heaven and he quickly said no. Then he said, oh wait let me think about this... (I think he was suddenly worried his answer jeopardized his chances to get into heaven!). What about you? Are you going to continue to worship God if there is no chance for an afterlife at all?

 

[S.A.M.]

You're in a catty mood today

No it may also be a leader, someone you wouldn't have ever personally known.

Anyway, those examples aside, why do you suppose that all religions regardless of beleif promise people a life after death? Doesn't that suggest that people need this to be an aspect of their religous beleif?

Well? Why?
Michael

I once asked a guy in the lab, a Xian, if he would keep worshiping God if he didn't get to go to heaven and he quickly said no. Then he said, oh wait let me think about this... (I think he was suddenly worried his answer jeopardized his chances to get into heaven!). What about you? Are you going to continue to worship God if there is no chance for an afterlife at all?

Do you really imagine people are thinking about their death (let alone their afterlife) when they are doing something good or when they are praying? If so, you are sadly mistaken. Its very much the problems and realities of this world that occupy our hours.

Though its very amusing how you make assumptions about what theists believe and build a whole faerytale around it. Oh well, someone did say that those who don't believe in God, don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything.

 

[Michael]

Do you really imagine people are thinking about their death (let alone their afterlife) when they are doing something good or when they are praying? If so, you are sadly mistaken. Its very much the problems and realities of this world that occupy our hours.

Though its very amusing how you make assumptions about what theists believe and build a whole faerytale around it. Oh well, someone did say that those who don't believe in God, don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything.

SAM, my apologies if you took offense, my specific question is: Why do you think that all religions regardless of time or place or beleif system - various polytheisms, various monotheisms, various Buddhisms, Scientology, etc.. all include a life-after-death aspect to their religous beleif?


I think it's a straight forward question.

I'm willing to alter my opinion and I thought Baron made many good points,

Michael

PS: You didn't say if you would continue to worship your God if you were not offered life after death.

 

[S.A.M.]

I actually answered the question, if you read between the lines.

 

[Michael]

I asked two questions.
I re-read your post, excuse my denseness, but I will require a straight forward answer.

 

[S.A.M.]

I asked two questions.
I re-read your post, excuse my denseness, but I will require a straight forward answer.

The one has nothing to do with the other. People who believe in God are not doing so for an after life or an innate fear of death, they do so as a part of their daily existence. This is true for me and it is certainly true for most theists that I know. I have yet to meet a theist who spends their time pondering on the joys of afterlife.

 

[Michael]

Sam,

So your answer to why all religions have a life-after-death is because "they do so as a part of their daily existence."

OK, I can accept that as your answer. Fear of death of oneself or ones loved ones is in no way shape or form anything special. Oh, sure, probably 10,000 years ago daily survival was of the utmost importance but it's just a coincidence that all religions in the world happen to devote a large portion of their beleif system to the struggle against death. Yes one big fat coincidence. Philosophers that delve into the subject are idiots wasting their time. We should email them and let them know that "The one has nothing to do with the other" Death and Religion has absolutely nothing to do with one another.

Yes, thanks for clearing that up. Now we can put that little fairytale to bed.


You didn't say if you would continue to worship your God if you were not offered life after death. Would you?

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam,

So your answer to why all religions have a life-after-death is because "they do so as a part of their daily existence."

OK, I can accept that as your answer. Fear of death of oneself or ones loved ones is in no way shape or form anything special. Oh, sure, probably 10,000 years ago daily survival was of the utmost importance but it's just a coincidence that all religions in the world happen to devote a large portion of their beleif system to the struggle against death. Yes one big fat coincidence. Philosophers that delve into the subject are idiots wasting their time. We should email them and let them know that "The one has nothing to do with the other" Death and Religion has absolutely nothing to do with one another.

Yes, thanks for clearing that up. Now we can put that little fairytale to bed.


You didn't say if you would continue to worship your God if you were not offered life after death. Would you?

Michael

I can see why you have so much trouble getting the point, if you need it in black and white.

Does Yes do it for you or do you need it in red flashing letters?

 

[Michael]

I can see why you have so much trouble getting the point, if you need it in black and white.

Does Yes do it for you or do you need it in red flashing letters?

Sam Sam Sam, I am sure you have heard the expression "I'm not a mind reader".

Actually I find it intriguing you would continue to worship another being if in the end you die like the rest of us. Or imagine if everyone else lived on but you simply died and ended. Say we atheists got to live for as long as we liked but you spent your days worshiping this other being and then ended. I dare say not to many people would be willing to do so. Imagine this: no proof at all that this other being even exists PLUS no promise of an afterlife. How many people would continue to worship this other being and why?


Anecdotally, almost every time I told someone I was atheist the very first question from their lips is "What happens when you die?" I say "I just end". They almost always say something like: "Not me I'm going to heaven!"

Not me buddy - I'm going to heaven :bugeye:

Must be nice, I'd like to go to, too bad for some odd reason I chose to be atheist? Why, if only I were a Scientologist - then I could float over to Xenon-23 a planet filled with .. ... ...??

Not me buddy - I'm floating to Xenon-23


Michael

 

[lightgigantic]

I didn't say the point of death was the same. Just that atheists and theist alike have a fear of death.

Yet in spite of having a fear of death, atheists except death as an unimaginable end.

The point of death is completely different. The point of death for an ancient Samurai is something completely different than say the point of death of a young Aztec virgin being sacrificed to a water God which is again completely different to what you think the point of death is or what I think that point of death is.

So I'm not referring to the point of death but of the fear of death. Although that said, I do think alleviating the fear of death may be the main point of most all organized religions.

if the point of death or the anticipation of the point of death involves fear, it indicates the nature of one's consciousness

SB 3.26.16: The influence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is felt in the time factor, which causes fear of death due to the false ego of the deluded soul who has contacted material nature.

In other words he ability to not have fear of death is the exclusive property of perfected theism

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam Sam Sam, I am sure you have heard the expression "I'm not a mind reader".

Actually I find it intriguing you would continue to worship another being if in the end you die like the rest of us. Or imagine if everyone else lived on but you simply died and ended. Say we atheists got to live for as long as we liked but you spent your days worshiping this other being and then ended. I dare say not to many people would be willing to do so. Imagine this: no proof at all that this other being even exists PLUS no promise of an afterlife. How many people would continue to worship this other being and why?


Anecdotally, almost every time I told someone I was atheist the very first question from their lips is "What happens when you die?" I say "I just end". They almost always say something like: "Not me I'm going to heaven!"

Not me buddy - I'm going to heaven :bugeye:

Must be nice, I'd like to go to, too bad for some odd reason I chose to be atheist? Why, if only I were a Scientologist - then I could float over to Xenon-23 a planet filled with .. ... ...??

Not me buddy - I'm floating to Xenon-23


Michael

I'd say it is a difference in perspective. You prefer to live in a universe with no meaning, while I assume every effect has a cause and vice versa.:shrug:

 

[Michael]

I'd say it is a difference in perspective. You prefer to live in a universe with no meaning, while I assume every effect has a cause and vice versa.:shrug:

I wouldn't say no meaning - I just think that we create our own meaning in life. I think that I through my actions give meaning to my life. In my case I spend almost all my time, as you well know, doing research. I hope that someday I find something exciting and helpful. But, if not, well I always try to do a little teaching and in that way encourage people to reach their potential.

Really now, are our lives all that different?

If there is a heaven I'm sure we'll both be surprised to find out that in reality - I'm actually God and I happen to be taking my vacation time all at once in a this life and for kicks I like to erase my memory while on earth to see how the other half lives - you know, to get away from all the nagging at the office/heaven. You better look lively chicky.


MII

 

[Michael]

In other words he ability to not have fear of death is the exclusive property of perfected theism

Well trained Samurai supposed didn't fear death. Many English were shocked when watching the Samurai performing Seppuku and apparently it wasn't all that uncommon.

Is ancient Samurai training a perfect theism?

 

[S.A.M.]

I wouldn't say no meaning - I just think that we create our own meaning in life. I think that I through my actions give meaning to my life. In my case I spend almost all my time, as you well know, doing research. I hope that someday I find something exciting and helpful. But, if not, well I always try to do a little teaching and in that way encourage people to reach their potential.

Really now, are our lives all that different?

If there is a heaven I'm sure we'll both be surprised to find out that in reality - I'm actually God and I happen to be taking my vacation time all at once in a this life and for kicks I like to erase my memory while on earth to see how the other half lives - you know, to get away from all the nagging at the office/heaven. You better look lively chicky.


MII
Michael

I wasn't talking about personal meaning, unless a person is braindead even the most meaningless existence is meaningful to him/her. I was speaking of the universal level. All religions are about the human being as a part of the universe, something that atheists seem dissociated with. (is that why the keep searching for why theists believe?)

 

[Michael]

I wasn't talking about personal meaning, unless a person is braindead even the most meaningless existence is meaningful to him/her. I was speaking of the universal level. All religions are about the human being as a part of the universe, something that atheists seem dissociated with. (is that why the keep searching for why theists believe?)

oh contraire mon chere muc-cy ...

Sam, you are an atheist too - for many Gods and many beleif systems. You're an atheist to the Buddha. You're an atheist to Athena.

I'd say part of religion is about humans trying to figure out what the reason for many natural phenomena are. Lightening was a bolt from Zeus, Love an arrow from Eros... another part is controlling people - take GW Bush's presidential Xian pandering for example or Julius Caesar rallying his troops.

As an atheist I'm not dissociated from physical reality and live here in the real world and I spend my life trying to learn about what's really happening here in the real world. I appreciate the arts as well. From classical sculptors, a modern dance, ect... I travel, I swim, I cook, -- atheists are very much a part of the universe.

MII

 

[Michael]

The Sombrero Galaxy, an example of an unbarred spiral galaxy.
Credit:Hubble Space Telescope/NASA/ESA.

I'd much prefer to read a book on physics and galaxy formation than waste this little time we have worrying about what some other being that may or may not exits thinks about what I think about.