Drowning in fear

[Michael]

I was thinking about a when a person feels they are going to drown. I'm an OK swimmer but I have come close to drowning and it's terrifyingly scary. We go primal and only think about survival. Which is why a person will even pull a friend or loved one under in a fit of terror trying to keep from drowning. It's also why water boarding (simulated drowning) is so effective. I've read that the CIA agents only lasted about a minute - it's simply that terrifying. It's death up close and personal and it effects theists as much as it does atheists. I mean, a theists doesn't stop and think, yippy God (or reincarnation) here I come. They go berserk like the rest of us.

Somewhere buried deep in our cloak of denial or acceptance or whatever .... lurks this innate serious fear of death. Feeling like drowning rips back the mental curtain and look there we are.

This is why I have come to the conclusion that to ask a theist to accept true oblivion is like speaking with a person drowning in some ways. It's just not possible for some people to rationalize in this manner. I have no idea what defense mechanism keeps us atheists sane but whatever it is it's just isn't for everyone.

Michael

 

[Baron Max]

God said, "Go forth and multiply." He did NOT say, "Go forth and find the quickest way to die."

If one does not believe in god, why do they always try to denigrate those who do? Are they trying to proof something to themselves? Or are they trying to get the others to believe as they believe? Or do they just want company in their own agonies of life?

But really, if you don't believe in god, why not just accept your beliefs ...instead of trying to convince others to accept your belief?

Baron Max

 

[KennyJC]

But really, if you don't believe in god, why not just accept your beliefs ...instead of trying to convince others to accept your belief?

Because they're just so copious and dumb.

 

[SnakeLord]

God said, "Go forth and multiply." He did NOT say, "Go forth and find the quickest way to die."

Michael is not implying anything of the sort. What is apparent is that at times like this the theist absolutely wants to remain here away from god as opposed to actually embracing the inevitable because what comes after is going to be so much better anyway.

This is why he mentions an 'innate fear of death'.

If one does not believe in god, why do they always try to denigrate those who do?

I don't believe he is. Instead he is pointing out a reality and goes on to speculate that some cannot fathom oblivion like some cannot fathom drowning. The last part is certainly debateable but I think your question is misplaced.

But really, if you don't believe in god, why not just accept your beliefs ...instead of trying to convince others to accept your belief?

Because.... life would be a little too quiet. "man bowling is great fun", "I don't think it is", "keep your opinions to yourself!"

What a waste of time.

 

[Enterprise-D]

If one does not believe in god, why do they always try to denigrate those who do? Are they trying to proof something to themselves? Or are they trying to get the others to believe as they believe? Or do they just want company in their own agonies of life?

But really, if you don't believe in god, why not just accept your beliefs ...instead of trying to convince others to accept your belief?

Baron Max

If one believes in god, why do they always try to convince those who don't that they'd burn in hell because they don't? Are they trying to live up to the old adage 'misery loves company'? Or are they trying to get others to believe - through fear - as they believe?

But really, if you do believe in god, why not just accept your beliefs...instead of trying to convince others to accept your belief?

- - - - - - - - - -

Nice speech Baron, but generally theists are the ones who use conversion methods (like Sandy's 'turn or burn' as she cheerfully admitted to in another thread). I will always - as an example - remember a lunchroom conversation at my previous office. One of my colleagues brought up a religious conversation, and became absolutely stunned and baffled that my stance was "no evidence, no opinion". He couldn't believe that there was such a thing as agnosticism or athiesm. He proceeded to use the standard fluff arguments but gave up when he saw I was much more interested in my food

 

[Baron Max]

Nice speech Baron, but generally theists are the ones who use conversion methods....

I disagree. Just check the posts here at sciforums ...the large majority are people trying to convince others that there is no god, not the other way around. And I've found that to be true in reality, too.

Baron Max

 

[Michael]

Each of us is going to die.
That much we agree on.

What made me think of drowning is that our innate fear of death, one that can be so incredibly intense, suddenly escapes and rushes to the surface. Primal instincts that are usually tucked away suddenly show themselves.

Well that got me to thinking of the main function of all religions - which is to offer life after death. No religion has ever succeeded that didn't offer life after death. They all must offer life after death. This is their main hook. Could you imagine if your religion asked you to do the typical supplication and repentance day after day praising the God-head but this God never offered life after death. Just worship the God and die.
I'm positive that 100% of the people would move over to a religion that did offer life after death. Hence there has never been a religion that did not offer life after death.

Whether is was the ancient Greeks crossing the river Styx into Hades, reincarnation found in Buddhism, Norse and Valhalla or the Inuit and Adlivun, The Japanese, the Hindu, the Aztecs ect... there's always on offer a life after death.

Even if the Xian God came to Earth and took human form and personally told people to worship him - as he desired - but also told Xian's they'd never see life after death, in any way shape or form, they'd tell God to shove it. I'm sure of it. All the wonderful aspects of God found in the Bible would soon look petty and pretty stupid - if they were asked to worship God and then just died. They'd think: Why bother? (they'd probably see the Bible a little more as we tend to)

So why is it that we atheists can rationalize away this fear? Will we always do so? As our times nears an end will we suddenly find the Gods are real or embrace reincarnation? (I've seen it happen to some pretty level headed atheists). Is it that theists have a harder time coping with the concept of oblivion and therefor can not be atheistic? Perhaps they have more copies of the bits of DNA that trigger a hardwired for fear of death and we atheists lucked out and don't have as many? Perhaps asking theists to accept death as we do (oblivion) is simply too much of an ask. Maybe the field isn't level and were we to carry a more intense fear of death we'd embrace some sort of theism as well?


Michael

 

[Carcano]

Dont forget, some people want to die...badly enough to takeover the reins of fate!

Then there are the folks who have already died, been brought back to life, and are no longer in fear of what lies beyond...or what doesnt lie beyond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlJXUi-z3Oc

 

[Baron Max]

What made me think of drowning is that our innate fear of death, one that can be so incredibly intense, suddenly escapes and rushes to the surface. Primal instincts that are usually tucked away suddenly show themselves.

I think you're looking at this all wrong. All animals are afraid to die, and fight or run with great strength and speed to get away from it. Yet the other animals aren't theists or atheists, are they?

See? You taking an innate animal characteristic and trying to use it to explain something that some of us have and some don't ...faith. But that faith doesn't change the innate animal trait of self-preservation and survival.

So why is it that we atheists can rationalize away this fear?

I don't think you can rationalize away that fear ...it's innate in all animals. And you're not different to the theist in most regards pertaining to death. Maybe you just think you can?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

*shakes head in exasperation/resignation*

 

[Michael]

I think you're looking at this all wrong. All animals are afraid to die, and fight or run with great strength and speed to get away from it. Yet the other animals aren't theists or atheists, are they?

Well I think they'd by nature fall into the atheist category.

See? You taking an innate animal characteristic and trying to use it to explain something that some of us have and some don't ...faith. But that faith doesn't change the innate animal trait of self-preservation and survival.

Yes, faith. I agree. People all over the world for thousands and thousands of years have worshipped Gods of varying sorts. My point is that they do so because they are promised life after they die. And there is some sort of psychological relief that comes with this and so people have faith they will live once they are dead. Or their loved ones await them on the other side of death. Their valor on the field of war will be recognized by those in charge on the other side. They will be rewarded for their good deeds and suffering and bad people will be punished.

I don't think that's all that all that hard to comprehend.

I don't think you can rationalize away that fear ...it's innate in all animals. And you're not different to the theist in most regards pertaining to death. Maybe you just think you can?

Yes, this is a fare comment and you are right. Atheist's do fear death. We do fear to die.
But, we have also accepted that we will die with no afterlife.
I am sure if asked most atheists would say they would like to live on - in a paradise or another world or maybe even be reincarnated ect... and it would probably be comforting to think like this. But we don't. We just accept there will come a time when we must die and at this time we will end.

Odd isn't it? Especially given the plethora of beleif systems where we could believe we live on and have to do little to nothing in the here and now.

*shakes head in exasperation/resignation*

Oh come on Sam ... .... ... perhaps I'm not making the point.

Surely you can agree that for the majority of people, they take religous comfort in the idea that they or their loved ones will not die? Yes we can agree to this.

So with this in mind, how would you explain that - given the many many many diverse beleif systems that have existed on the planet 10000+ years with the literally thousands of Gods and Goddesses and Buddhas and Prophets galore they all have the common thread that if you listen to what they say - you will hear of how you do not have to die.

Surely ... surely this must be, at the most fundamental level, the reason for all these various belief systems? Even the people living on Easter Island had a common beleif system they they (or their loved ones) would not die if they had faith in their Gods.

What other reasonable explanation is there?

Anyone???

Michael

 

[Michael]

I'm admittedly atheistic. If I could pick a beleif system perhaps I'd go for the Greek pantheon - that seemed fun. But I can not just believe in the Goddesses Athena any more than anyone else here could. So we are all Atheists in this sense. We don't have any belief in the Greek gods.

Which again makes me think it must be a fear of death, But then I must ask - why in hell are we non-believers atheists?

We fear death but we still don't believe.

Michael

 

[lightgigantic]

I was thinking about a when a person feels they are going to drown. I'm an OK swimmer but I have come close to drowning and it's terrifyingly scary. We go primal and only think about survival. Which is why a person will even pull a friend or loved one under in a fit of terror trying to keep from drowning. It's also why water boarding (simulated drowning) is so effective. I've read that the CIA agents only lasted about a minute - it's simply that terrifying. It's death up close and personal and it effects theists as much as it does atheists. I mean, a theists doesn't stop and think, yippy God (or reincarnation) here I come. They go berserk like the rest of us.

Somewhere buried deep in our cloak of denial or acceptance or whatever .... lurks this innate serious fear of death. Feeling like drowning rips back the mental curtain and look there we are.

This is why I have come to the conclusion that to ask a theist to accept true oblivion is like speaking with a person drowning in some ways. It's just not possible for some people to rationalize in this manner. I have no idea what defense mechanism keeps us atheists sane but whatever it is it's just isn't for everyone.

Michael

on what grounds do you say that the point of death is the same for atheists and theists alike?

 

[Michael]

on what grounds do you say that the point of death is the same for atheists and theists alike?

I didn't say the point of death was the same. Just that atheists and theist alike have a fear of death.

Yet in spite of having a fear of death, atheists except death as an unimaginable end.

The point of death is completely different. The point of death for an ancient Samurai is something completely different than say the point of death of a young Aztec virgin being sacrificed to a water God which is again completely different to what you think the point of death is or what I think that point of death is.

So I'm not referring to the point of death but of the fear of death. Although that said, I do think alleviating the fear of death may be the main point of most all organized religions.

Michael

 

[Cris]

It is indeed that innate fear of death and non existence that has spawned the multitude of religions in the world from the begining of humanity.

 

[Baron Max]

Just that atheists and theist alike have a fear of death.

Yet in spite of having a fear of death, atheists except death as an unimaginable end.

Do you really think that people go about their daily lives in fear of death? ...that it's even on their minds at all? Atheists or theists alike?

I know of no one who fears death except perhaps when directly faced with it, such as going into combat or something "death-defying" like that. I'm old, I've lived a long time, yet I've never known anyone who even thinks about death except as a philosophical asbstract concept.

No, I think you're wrong about the fear of death. Thus your entire thesis is in dire doubt because of that.

Baron Max

 

[Michael]

Baron,

I was thinking more of a subconscious level, innate so to speak - kind of like breathing or walking; done even though we don't really think about it. When we do think of death it's more in a philosophical manner and so we don't really feel it. But when drowning we come face to face with our mortality and so our innate hard wired feeling of fear of dieing comes to the surface.

Can you explain why all religions regardless of time or place have a solid foundation in an afterlife of some sorts?
Why?
Why not just praise be to God and then die? Why is there a need of an afterlife hook (again this is regardless of beleif system)?

Michael

 

[ashura]

I think a theist response to that would be that there's no need for an after like hook, it's just there because God's good and kind and loving to those who follow Him and wanted to offer some comfort for our physical lives.

Because you know, what God wants, he gets. Always. Not that God wants anything, I think. I'm not sure. :d

 

[Baron Max]

Baron, I was thinking more of a subconscious level, innate so to speak - kind of like breathing or walking; ...

So it's only for philosophical discussions involving logic and reason, right? In which case, virtually all you've said about this topic is ....well, nothing but psycho-babble, right?

Religion and faith isn't really about logic and reasoning ....nor is it really about philosophical discussions.

Can you explain why all religions regardless of time or place have a solid foundation in an afterlife of some sorts? Why?

The reward for living the "good life" according to the religious teachings. Vikings went to Valhalla if they hacked and killed lots and lots of enemies ...so Vikings trained from childhood to hack and kill people to death. And when they killed lots, and they finally died, then went to Valhalla.

Why not just praise be to God and then die? Why is there a need of an afterlife hook (again this is regardless of beleif system)?

It's the reward for people like you who can't seem to grasp the ideals of faith. For people who have faith in god, they don't really need that reward to live "the good life".

Baron Max

 

[Michael]

Baron, a couple things here.

Religion and faith isn't really about logic and reasoning ....nor is it really about philosophical discussions.

Religious discourse can be logical to some degree and it's not psycho-babble to have those discussions.

Look I'm not a fan of psycho-babble but how is one to discuss the fear of dieing without contemplating the psychological ramifications. We sure as hell don't know no where near enough physiology to talk about fear without discussing it as a feeling - do we?

The reward for living the "good life" according to the religious teachings. Vikings went to Valhalla if they hacked and killed lots and lots of enemies ...so Vikings trained from childhood to hack and kill people to death. And when they killed lots, and they finally died, then went to Valhalla.

I like this - good point.

It's seems to agree with my hypothesis - doesn't it?

Perhaps, in a very special situation, a person who is extremely well trained in both meditation and killing, like a Samurai or SAS or the like, could die a purposeful death without fear and accept it with no need of an afterlife. But most people are not like that. Most people in the world, against all evidence, retain a beleif they will live on after they die.

It's the reward for people like you who can't seem to grasp the ideals of faith. For people who have faith in god, they don't really need that reward to live "the good life".

OK, I agree most people (regardless of theists or atheists) live a good life and have no need of a reward in a hypothetical next life.

It's not about being rewarded per say, it's about not having this nagging worry that one day we will full stop end. All religions alleviate this worry completely - surely THAT much we can agree to? And there must be a reason for this across the board commonality.

Michael