"dogma's a bitch"

[scifes]

in a world where not all people reached the same level of knowledge..

(literate-illiterate)(high school-PHD)

where not all people are equally smart in the same intellectual fields..

(poet-scientist) (right half of the brain user-left half of the brain user)(one who understands-one who
memorizes)

where not all people have gone through the same experiences..

(fielder[practical]-book worm[theoretical])(one who repeatadly saw death by his own eyes-one who never saw the color of blood)(one who travelled the world-one who goes downtown only to shop for xmas)(a blind-deaf person- a normal person)


and,


where all people will never gain all knowledge..


how will you govern them without dogma??

 

[cosmictraveler]

how will you govern them without dogma??

You won't, but you will think that you are if they let you.

 

[scifes]

ok then..rephrase:

"how will a community not based on dogma NOT collapse"

 

[tuberculatious]

govern them with an iron fist.

 

[scifes]

isn't that dogma from person?
dictatorship?

and the dictator will be different than some of his people..he will be different than all of them in some ways..lol, unless he rules over a community of clones of himself..and even then they would all want to rule like him and they'll start killing each other lol..

so dictatorship or dogma based on a single person won't work (unless you disagree)..

any other tries?

 

[tuberculatious]

iron fist works fine. Plenty of examples around. Maybe you have to adjust your views to match reality.

 

[scifes]

iron fist works fine. Plenty of examples around. Maybe you have to adjust your views to match reality.

:huh:
that's why hitler had to kill himself and iraqis gave flowers to american troops?

 

[tuberculatious]

plenty of iraqis giving bombs to the american troops.

or std.

 

[Bishadi]

in a world where not all people reached the same level of knowledge..

(literate-illiterate)(high school-PHD)

where not all people are equally smart in the same intellectual fields..

(poet-scientist) (right half of the brain user-left half of the brain user)(one who understands-one who
memorizes)

where not all people have gone through the same experiences..

(fielder[practical]-book worm[theoretical])(one who repeatadly saw death by his own eyes-one who never saw the color of blood)(one who travelled the world-one who goes downtown only to shop for xmas)(a blind-deaf person- a normal person)


and,


where all people will never gain all knowledge..


how will you govern them without dogma??

tell them the truth!

EVERY soul ever born has wanted to know one real question; "what is life?"

And since we live in a reality that, """""""""people will never gain all knowledge..""""""""""

all because we ain't magicians with magical minds to magically wrap all knowledge into a magical upload or 'upon the head'.............. then it seems correct, that the missing item is the basic 'principles' of life and how life works; is what is most important.

and that evolution has occurred!

That mirrors the OLD DOGMA of long ago. That; "light is life"

which in reality, when anyone does wish to take on the chore personally to dig, just that deep, to recognize; that 'dogma' is an 'absolute truth'..... the life of mass is em (electromagnetism/light)

even ask the christians; electric and magnetic fields at perpendicular planes is what? Light of course and is perfectly rendered symbolically as a 'CROSS".

The anhk of egypt is even better as the loop is time. Where-as to symbolically render this postulate; "mass; energy affixed in time"
(basically what E=mc2 means)

my point is; the core principle of life can and will be understood

to offer the children an ability to comprehend life at and early age that is pure and consistent with nature, science, philosophies and base religious (dogma) metaphors/understanding; then the new generations can finish the combining of mankind (the knowledge of existance) into an articulate form

for all mankind.

there is nothing magical about it; but the the core integrity can begin and be of choice; if 'we the people' just step up and not allow decepions to continue running the program.

there is no 'right' to misleading or fibbing to the next generation; our children!

 

[scifes]

very nice bishadi..

but my basic argument is that definition of life, among other things in it..changes from person to person..look just here in sciforums..i'm sure many disagree with your idea of life..and so when you govern people..you will not be able to convince them all with your explenation..they will have their own explanations..

or will you? :scratchin:

if dogma is religous indoctiration solving the problem of humans never reaching ultimate knowledge by claiming to have actually reached ultimate knowledge(dogma) from the way of god, the most complete and ultimate..and so hushing those who are differrent than you by saying that they (and you) are humans who wll never know everything and only god does..and you reveal god's word, and show that it isn't YOUR word...hmm..

so from an atheist viewpoint..the answer is..

"if only dogma works..i'll label MY ideas as dogma"?:scratchin:

 

[SkinWalker]

What are you using as your definition of "dogma?"

In this forum, the logical definition would be "religious doctrine held without proof." But in the context you're using, perhaps its any doctrine held as authoritative and above dispute.

I'm against dogma. There should always be the freedom to dissent from government and speak out against government policy. People deserve to live their lives with freedom to pursue their beliefs as they see fit. Dogma prevents this. One should be free to choose religion or not. Change religions. Abandon religion. Embrace religion. etc. Dogma prevents this.

 

[scifes]

What are you using as your definition of "dogma?"

In this forum, the logical definition would be "religious doctrine held without proof." But in the context you're using, perhaps its any doctrine held as authoritative and above dispute.

it's actually both..
my simple point is...

proof is useless..

any person with a mind can see that..
and when all people disregard proof as something to live by because it changes with all the things in the OP..their hopes look for something different..dogma solves this..

living without dogma is like a society which keeps killing the adults so children can have their choice in life..

it's following something that will never be complete..
and will never be agreed upon..

proof is useless.. (is it?:scratchin

and so people can NOT live their life by it..

people can NOT govern others by it..

I'm against dogma. There should always be the freedom to dissent from government and speak out against government policy. People deserve to live their lives with freedom to pursue their beliefs as they see fit. Dogma prevents this. One should be free to choose religion or not. Change religions. Abandon religion. Embrace religion. etc. Dogma prevents this.

"as they see fit"
i take that as "chaos"

and because i'm not in it's favor (in this thread to say the least)..i stated in the OP that i'm asking how would the reader GOVERN without dogma..

and btw..iron fist works if you want to die young..so let us keep it out for the mean time..

 

[cosmictraveler]

Whenever possible let the people vote on what it is that you propose to do. That way you will be giving them what they want, not what YOU want to give them.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Whenever possible let the people vote on what it is that you propose to do. That way you will be giving them what they want, not what YOU want to give them.

But of course, before letting them vote make sure you've narrowed the options available down to the things that you want.

 

[scifes]

Whenever possible let the people vote on what it is that you propose to do. That way you will be giving them what they want, not what YOU want to give them.

But of course, before letting them vote make sure you've narrowed the options available down to the things that you want.

uh, something like

MAN!! religion turns into politics and politics turn into religion..

 

[SkinWalker]

it's actually both..
my simple point is...

proof is useless..

any person with a mind can see that..
and when all people disregard proof as something to live by because it changes with all the things in the OP..their hopes look for something different..dogma solves this..

living without dogma is like a society which keeps killing the adults so children can have their choice in life..

it's following something that will never be complete..
and will never be agreed upon..

proof is useless.. (is it?:scratchin

and so people can NOT live their life by it..

people can NOT govern others by it..

"as they see fit"
i take that as "chaos"

and because i'm not in it's favor (in this thread to say the least)..i stated in the OP that i'm asking how would the reader GOVERN without dogma..

and btw..iron fist works if you want to die young..so let us keep it out for the mean time..

Most western nations (if not all) govern successfully without dogma. Indeed, I would argue that dogma in governments leads to an ultimate downfall. Your comments about 'proof' seem out-of-place. I don't see how 'proof' is at issue or what's trying to be proved.

 

[scifes]

dogma is a system unquestioned because it isn't based on proof that can be questioned..
since all proof can be questioned and is unreliable (OP)..any system based on it is wrong..

any system not based on proof is dogma..

dogma rocks..

and is neccesary..

the west is collapsing..it "rose" for some time because all the people who were gathered at a side of the boat have rushed to the other side..generating momentary balance..when they reach it all they will start sinking and then will run to the other side and so on..
the soviet union took its shot and was the "star" system of the world before it crumbled..dictatorship and other systems have taken their chance..the democracy star is nearing it's end..

AND EVEN IF it stays alive like this it is as far as can be from being perfect or good or ideal or not bad..it would skim around "the worst" if that wasn't overflowing already..

 

[Acitnoids]

It takes individuals to give dogma its influence, governing with dogma means nothing unless the people are willing to accept it. With the rise and fall of every great nation you will see the acceptance and rejection of an idea. In my opinion, it should not be the governments role to dictate any idea onto any people. If the citizens choose to believe in dogma that's there right, only they can change that. So to answer the question, the only way to govern using (alleged) unchanging, unquestionable, undisputable set of ideas is through some form of dictatorship. I personally do not believe a nation (or anything for that matter) must be run using dogma. It's just something to take advantage of.

 

[Bishadi]

very nice bishadi..

but my basic argument is that definition of life, among other things in it..changes from person to person..look just here in sciforums..i'm sure many disagree with your idea of life..

but my opinion is not what binds reality.

Reality is of itself all i can do is share what is observed, not believed. The truth stands by itself and each can observe what is true, or not!

Kind of cool how choice works.

and so when you govern people..

you can govern youself especially if the 'truth' is pure to existence, verifying the reality of the comprehension.

meaning; if YOUR truth is equal to existence/mother nature (God), then your truth is unequivocally TRUE.

if not, then, just opinions

you will not be able to convince them all with your explenation..they will have their own explanations..

which is fine, until a fib is imposed; none have a right to fib.

so to 'believe' is all your own choice; false witness and your butt is mine (as a fib can impose a 'loss to the common') and to all of us; whom any can be harming; so each are responsible to not only 'everything' but to all of us too.

as NO ONE has a right, religiously, scientifically, morally, logically and literally; to mislead, just because YOU believe 'x'.

fair is fair!

or will you? :scratchin:

i splash; the people judge (equally capable and will; that i promise you)

if dogma is religous indoctiration solving the problem of humans never reaching ultimate knowledge by claiming to have actually reached ultimate knowledge(dogma) from the way of god, the most complete and ultimate..and so hushing those who are differrent than you by saying that they (and you) are humans who wll never know everything and only god does..and you reveal god's word, and show that it isn't YOUR word...hmm..

i guess dogma (beliefs), is not the way the go

please show me ONE religion that can define life!

but, then i ask; if you combined al whole bunch of knowledge, from most every discipline of science, religion and philosophy; (no borders, no limits on depth)............ do you think it is possible to find the 'absolute' in truth?

so from an atheist viewpoint..the answer is..

"if only dogma works..i'll label MY ideas as dogma"?:scratchin:

if sharing that 'life' can be understood is dogma; then i guess we have the name of my belief; the combining of knowledge into

"Understanding" (in which, all mankind, equally can comprehend)

does everyone know tomorrow is my 43rd b-day?

rev 13:18

 

[scifes]

i guess dogma (beliefs), is not the way the go

please show me ONE religion that can define life!

that's funny..i once came across a book that was preaching to islam...it said how only Islam states clearly the goal behind life.. the "question of the millennium"..i thought the guy didn't know what he was talking about or was just trying to sell islam off...

now you're telling me to give you one religion which defines life and gives it a reason??

don't all religions have their own explanations to life??

(and i'm really sorry bishadi..you always asked for anyone to prove you wrong in anything..i really honestly wished no one will be able to..i always regarded you as a ,misunderstood genius..similar to me with out the genius part..but you are wrong this time)