Does the brain really "cause" consciousness?

[spidergoat]

You're right. Nobody "witnesses" reincarnation. Just like creationists smugly insist that nobody witnessed evolution. But given the facts of all these cases, it becomes a very likely inferrence to explain how this information gets transmitted. Could it just happen psychically? Sure, but the pattern is that the kids have a explicit identity with this other person in their past life. Until you have some evidence showing that these parents lied, the case stands on its own merits. Unless you are just in the habit of dismissing eyewitness accounts that don't match your preconclusion about what really happened. I happen to avoid doing that on scientific grounds.

Apparently, the child was taken to the Cavanaugh Flight Museum in Dallas prior to this, a museum that has a Corsair in it, complete with drop tanks, something they fail to mention. And he was counseled by someone who believes in reincarnation, who encouraged his storytelling. Also, the kid was incorrect about being shot down in a Corsair. James Huston, the man they claim their kid is, was shot down in a FM2 Wildcat, not a Corsair as little James “remembers”. James is a very common name. But the kid didn't say James, he said Jack. How do you forget your own name? So you must now see how gullible people fool themselves into believing a preordained conclusion, as you falsely accused me of doing.

 

[Magical Realist]

Incidents are reported on the news... it is up to the individual whether they believe what is reported or not.
Personally, the more incredible the claim the more rigorous the assessment of the evidence provided to support it.

Incredible things happen all the time. Some people get struck by lightning multiple times. Others see and catch video evidence of ghosts. Only for someone who has axiomatically ruled out the occurrence of the incredible would such stories HAVE be dismissed as lies/mistakes. I on the other hand take people at their word until some evidence of their lying or fakery turns up. Do you have some evidence that the parents are making this all up?

You do? Or do you merely accept that these people have their own interpretation of what they saw.

Uh yeah. I pretty much accept people's "interpretation" of the events that have occurred in their lives and in their children lives. If theseparents say their child said these things, had nightmares, and drew pictures of crashing Corsairs I accept that "interpretion" of their past lives. Unless both parents are psychotic, I think its safe to assume the events really did happen. People just don't go thru the trouble hoaxing a phenomenon that clearly goes against their own christian beliefs.

Personally I do not take the word of eyewitnesses as truth - merely as their recollection of events.

What a hectic life you must lead. Background checking the details of people's lives to confirm whether what they tell you is the correct interpretation. Constantly analysing the motives of eyewitnesses of news events as to whether they might be lying or delusional regarding what they claim they saw. The fact of the matter is that few of us ever question any of the autobiographical info people provide of their own past. The fact that you should insist we start doing it now just so you don't have to think reincarnation is possible is disingenuous to say the least.

I would draw no conclusion at all - other than the parents are making a claim.

That would be YOUR interpretation of the event wouldn't it? That since such an event is de facto impossible, then there cannot possibly be any credibility in what the parents are claiming.

Without examining the evidence more closely - far more closely given the extraordinary claims they are making - there is nothing really to be said.

So you dismiss the parents as liars or delusional idiots based on no evidence whatsoever. That's not a very scientific approach imo. But then probably 90% of what we believe happens in the world isn't based on scientifically-verifiable claims at all is it? Anecdotes from reasonable eyewitness seem to suffice most of the time.

 

[spidergoat]

My hypothesis was that it was more absurd to think that personality and memory transcends death than some other more mundane explanation. It took me two minutes to confirm this.

If the kid was really a reincarnated WWII pilot, why isn't he getting drunk and trolling for pussy? PROBABLY BECAUSE HE'S JUST A FUCKING KID.

 

[Magical Realist]

Apparently, the child was taken to the Cavanaugh Flight Museum in Dallas prior to this, a museum that has a Corsair in it, complete with drop tanks, something they fail to mention. And he was counseled by someone who believes in reincarnation, who encouraged his storytelling. Also, the kid was incorrect about being shot down in a Corsair. James Huston, the man they claim their kid is, was shot down in a FM2 Wildcat, not a Corsair as little James “remembers”. James is a very common name. So you must now see how gullible people fool themselves into believing a preordained conclusion, as you falsely accused me of doing.

The child's nightmares and drawings of what happened began at the age of two. So when was this alleged visit to the military museum? Even if it occurred before then, a two year old is not likely to remember a Corsair having a drop tank. Also, where did you get the info that the plane wasn't a Corsair? Did you also confirm that the child just happened to know the name of the other pilots? Ahh yes..just little coincidences!

 

[spidergoat]

The child's nightmares and drawings of what happened began at the age of two. So when was this alleged visit to the military museum? Even if it occurred before then, a two year old is not likely to remember a Corsair having a drop tank. Also, where did you get the info that the plane wasn't a Corsair? Did you also confirm that the child just happened to know the name of the other pilots? Ahh yes..just little coincidences!

Wow, kids have nightmares and make drawings? Who would have imagined! Your hoax has been debunked here:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html

The kid might very well be autistic, or have a photographic memory, both more valid explanations than reincarnation.

 

[Magical Realist]

Wow, kids have nightmares and make drawings? Who would have imagined! Your hoax has been debunked here:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html

The kid might very well be autistic, or have a photographic memory, both more valid explanations than reincarnation.

Yeah, an 18 month year old baby starts having WW11 nightmares after seeing fighter planes. Right. And he probably has a photographic memory, (no evidence) which is why he would make up false memories of a previous life? He only said the first name of the ship he was attached to but not the last. Big deal. And OFCOURSE he could easily have gotten all this from watching TV. Didn't see that one coming did I? So how did the kid know the names of the 4 pilots James flew with? Uhh uh..just a coincidence. lol!

 

[spidergoat]

Yeah, an 18 month year old baby starts having WW11 nightmares after seeing fighter planes. Right. And he probably has a photographic memory, (no evidence) which is why he would make up false memories of a previous life? He only said the first name of the ship he was attached to but not the last. Big deal. And OFCOURSE he could easily have gotten all this from watching TV. Didn't see that one coming did I? So how did the kid know the names of the 4 pilots James flew with? Uhh uh..just a coincidence. lol!

That's hardly a baby, and you can imagine that a WWII museum would be both thrilling and scary to a young child. Add to that the parents encouraged his interest with books and toys. Add to that the connection to a reincarnation counselor and a bit of media hype and you can see the result.

The bias here is all you, I hope I've made that clear to anyone reading this.

 

[Magical Realist]

The bias here is all you, I hope I've made that clear to anyone reading this.

I'm sure all your fans are most impressed with your defending so valiantly your extinctionist view of death. I personally remain totally agnostic about death since nobody, not even scientists, know what it is until they actually die. To be honest I hope like hell reincarnation ISN'T true as I'd prefer not coming back to this shithole of a world. Nevertheless it's hard to hope away thousands of cases like these where kids remember confirmed details of other lives. If that somehow makes me biased so be it. "Hey look everybody! I take people at their word instead of trying to debunk everything that contradicts my personal belief system!"

 

[Billy T]

In 2006, the Cavanaugh Flight Museum attracted 33,000 visitors mainly from the millions living in the Dallas Fort Worth area. They were not a random cross section of the population. Most had some connection with WWII airplanes. On a typical day, when the weather was nice, it is probable that that of the more than 1000 visitors, 1% may have flown the Corsair, which is one of the main full scale WWII planes featured. (The other full size WWII plane is a B-24A bomber “old 927”) Data from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavanaugh_Flight_Museum

Thus it is PROBABLE, that about 10 former Corsair pilots were there the day young James was visiting. Certainly not improbable (and no violation of known physical laws) that a Corsair pilot was there with his son in front of the Corsair when James was there with his father. That Corsair pilot might have told his son, something like:
“That tank you see underneath was full of gas when we took of from the Natoma, our aircraft carrier that stay well off shore to avoid attack by Japanese fighter bombers. The “drop tank” gave us the extra range we need to reach Iwo Jima. I always used mine up first to get better air speed and maneuverability. Also, without it, I was a smaller target for the Japanese fighters shooting at us. It they hit the drop tank it would explode and you´d go down in flames. That happened to my friend, Jack Larsen. Jack managed to get back out over the harbor and crash his burning plane into the water, but he did not survive – a horrible way to die with your legs on fire! Jack was a really good man and deserved better.” – Certainly a vivid and frightening story for young James to have over heard while looking at the Corsair but more probable than impossible violation of physical laws. It could be the cause of James’s nightmares that started shortly after the visit to the museum.

You might think it improbable than less than 2 year old James would or could remember words like Iwo Jima, drop tank, harbor, etc that he may never have heard before, even though they were part of an emotion packed scary story which aids memory formation and recall. Well you are wrong:

... most children manifest a vocabulary spurt, where the rate of acquisition of new words increases suddenly and markedly. From then until about six years old, the average rate of acquisition is estimated to be five or more words a day.

Even 10 emotion charged words per day happens, but usually this vocabulary spurt starts a little after age 2 but for bright children can be earlier.

SUMMARY: I PREFER TO BELIEVE A QUITE LIKELY, IF NOT ACTUALLY HIGHLY PROBABLE, EXPLANATION THAN ONE THAT VIOLATES PHYSICAL LAWS. Also, note that early on James fell under the influence of a man who made his living by discovering cases of re-incarnation, especially in young people who are easy to lead as they usually try to please adults and are easily lead to have imaginary friends, see dead anunts, etc. or believe that they had earlier lives, if so lead.etc.

 

[Magical Realist]

http://soulsurvivorbook.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/confessions-of-a-skeptic/

 

[Magical Realist]

In 2006, the Cavanaugh Flight Museum attracted 33,000 visitors mainly from the millions living in the Dallas Fort Worth area. They were not a random cross section of the population. Most had some connection with WWII airplanes. On a typical day, when the weather was nice, it is probable that that of the more than 1000 visitors, 1% may have flown the Corsair, which is one of the main full scale WWII planes featured. (The other full size WWII plane is a B-24A bomber “old 927”) Data from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavanaugh_Flight_Museum

Thus it is PROBABLE, that about 10 former Corsair pilots were there the day young James was visiting. Certainly not improbable (and no violation of known physical laws) that a Corsair pilot was there with his son in front of the Corsair when James was there with his father. That Corsair pilot might have told his son, something like:
“That tank you see underneath was full of gas when we took of from the Natoma, our aircraft carrier that stay well off shore to avoid attack by Japanese fighter bombers. The “drop tank” gave us the extra range we need to reach Iwo Jima. I always used mine up first to get better air speed and maneuverability. Also, without it, I was a smaller target for the Japanese fighters shooting at us. It they hit the drop tank it would explode and you´d go down in flames. That happened to my friend, Jack Larsen. Jack managed to get back out over the harbor and crash his burning plane into the water, but he did not survive – a horrible way to die with your legs on fire! Jack was a really good man and deserved better.” – Certainly a vivid and frightening story for young James to have over heard while looking at the Corsair but more probable than impossible violation of physical laws. It could be the cause of James’s nightmares that started shortly after the visit to the museum.

You might think it improbable than less than 2 year old James would or could remember words like Iwo Jima, drop tank, harbor, etc that he may never have heard before, even though they were part of an emotion packed scary story which aids memory formation and recall. Well you are wrong: Even 10 emotion charged words per day happens, but usually this vocabulary spurt starts a little after age 2 but for bring children can be earlier.

SUMMARY: I PREFER TO BELIEVE A QUITE LIKELY IF NOT VERY PROBABLE EXPLANATION THAN ONE THAT VIOLATES PHYSICAL LAWS. Also, note that early on James fell under the influence of a man who made his living by discovering cases of re-incarnation, especially in young people who are easy to lead as they usually try to please adults and are easily lead to have imaginary friends, see dead anunts, etc. or believe that they had earlier lives, if so lead.etc.

I'm curious as to what particular "physical laws" reincarnation would violate. From my readings in science I thought information could never be destroyed. Since you yourself claim humans are composed of information, what physical laws would the survival of that information violate?

 

[Billy T]

http://soulsurvivorbook.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/confessions-of-a-skeptic/

Your link which has a financial interest in selling books, ask:
“How could he be coached to know the flight characteristics of World War II era fighter planes? How could he know the names of the ships and the sailors who had taken part in a certain battle at a certain time? "

That is answered in post 289 by events known to be very probable. (more than 10 Corsair pilots at the museum on nice weather day, many standing in front of the displayed Corsair and telling their son or grandson what could happen if a Japanese fighter plane hit the still attached "drop tank" - perhaps even giving the name of a pilot they knew and liked whose plane did go down in flames.)

This certainly plausible explanation, and possibly quite likely explanation, given that more than 10 WWII Corsair pilots can be expected to visit the museum on a good weather day, needs to be contrasted with the explanation which postulates (with zero testable evidence the existence of "souls") re-incarnation and requires violation of known physical laws.

 

[Billy T]

I'm curious as to what particular "physical laws" reincarnation would violate.

The main ones would be Newton´s laws which require a force to make every atom change its movements, and fact that "souls" produce no detectible force so can not "do anything."

From my readings in science I thought information could never be destroyed.

No. Every "irreversible process," like cooking an egg destroys information - that egg no longer has the DNA information to make a chicken. Or if you really believe information can not be destroyed, give the command "Re format" to your computer´s hard disk.

Since you yourself claim humans are composed of information, what physical laws would the survival of that information violate?

Yes I do believe that "I" am an information in a RTS executing my parietal brain, when I´m awake but just like a fire will destroy your computer´s hard disk so will the natural decay of my parietal brain destroy "me" someday when I die. Before than "I" can be made to not exist by drugs that are not lethal, but stop the RTS for a while.

 

[spidergoat]

I'm sure all your fans are most impressed with your defending so valiantly your extinctionist view of death. I personally remain totally agnostic about death since nobody, not even scientists, know what it is until they actually die. To be honest I hope like hell reincarnation ISN'T true as I'd prefer not coming back to this shithole of a world. Nevertheless it's hard to hope away thousands of cases like these where kids remember confirmed details of other lives. If that somehow makes me biased so be it. "Hey look everybody! I take people at their word instead of trying to debunk everything that contradicts my personal belief system!"

Taking people's word on things is how ignorance is proliferated. Skepticism is the path of knowledge.

I think I've proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the kid in question is remembering information from his own life, which was full of information about pilots, airplanes, and WWII thanks to his parents. The rest is confirmation bias and a shameful lack of critical thinking on the part of the media.

 

[Magical Realist]

The main ones would be Newton´s laws which require a force to make every atom change its movements, and fact that "souls" produce no detectible force so can not "do anything."
No. Every "irreversible process," like cooking an egg destroys information - that egg no longer has the DNA information to make a chicken. Or if you really believe information can not be destroyed, give the command "Re format" to your computer´s hard disk. Yes I do believe that "I" am an information in a RTS executing my parietal brain, when I´m awake but just like a fire will destroy your computer´s hard disk so will the natural decay of my parietal brain destroy "me" someday when I die. Before than "I" can be made to not exist by drugs that are not lethal, but stop the RTS for a while.

Not sure what the preservation of life information has to do with souls moving atoms, but there IS something called the law of conservation of information at the quantum level. It was a source for the famous black hole paradox posed to Hawking by Kip Thorn. Here's a summary of the principle:

"And that's where the paradox arises. One basic idea of quantum mechanics is what might be called the Law of Conservation of Information. Bits of data must never disappear. Otherwise, an important notion called "micro-reversibility" would be violated:

Whenever two particles collide and splinter into shards, and those shards into other shards, it is supposed to be possible to reverse the process. Presented with the progeny of this cascading process, one should be able to "run the film" backward and identify the parents and grandparents. If information can just leave the universe, then physical processes would not be perfectly predictable.

Even worse, it is widely believed that if information is not conserved, then neither is energy. Information, after all, is physical, not ethereal. "To transmit a given amount of information in a given amount of time requires a minimum amount of energy," Giddings explained. "To lose a given amount of information in a given amount of time requires a violation of energy conservation....

..At first, the notion that information, like energy, cannot be destroyed seems like a dubious pronouncement. Tear out a page from a book and drop it into a fire and the information seems to vanish. After all, the second law of thermodynamics says that an orderly system (like a page arrayed with words and numbers) will inevitably become more and more disordered, increasing in entropy, until it eventually becomes a meaningless mess. In principle, however, information doesn't truly disappear. The markings of ink on the page are preserved in the way the flame flickers and the smoke curls, in the ripples of heat radiating through the air and the pattern of the ashes delicately falling to the ground. The practical difficulties of retrieving this subtle data and restoring the original order give the second law its vaunted power. But in theory one could reconstruct every paragraph. The information is supposed to be out there in the universe somewhere..."---http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/preskill/blackhole_bet.html

 

[Magical Realist]

Taking people's word on things is how ignorance is proliferated. Skepticism is the path of knowledge.

Actually its how nearly all knowledge is proliferated as well. How much would you have learned about anything if you had never taken people's word on things?

 

[kx000]

Spidergoat, the path of knowledge goes through faith. I faith, I fly. I know this, me no skeptic. Doesn't knowledge state omniscience?

Be shy, not skeptical.

 

[Billy T]

Not sure what the preservation of life information has to do with souls moving atoms, but there IS something called the law of conservation of information at the quantum level. ...

If the soul can not change even the motion of a single atom or electron from what the physical laws of nature demand - roughly Newton´s laws, then it can not have any effect on ANY material body - certainly not a complex one like a person´s body and to the extent thoughts have a material basis not on his thoughts either. The "soul," as usually conceived, is not part of our universe and has zero ability to impact what happens in the universe. I.e. one can claim it does exist so long as one admits it is powerless to make even one electron deviate from the behavior controlled by the natural laws. One can also claim that thoughts have no material basis, nothing to do with the brain, but then my thinking about lifting my finger could not produce that change in the behavior of my finger.

Yes, most if not all purely quantum events are reversible although I started a thread* which seems to show a few quantum experiments that are not reversible in principle. Although CPT product is conserved, these experiments showed CP was not for certain "weak force" interaction. Thus replace T with (-T) also could not be reversible to keep CPT reversible. You link probably was written before the last year or so when these new experiments were confirmed.

The macro-world is rarely reversible - normally some higher grade energy is converted into heat by "friction" and the entropy of the closed system increases. In fact the best and simplest definition of "irreversible process" is that information is lost.

* At: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...ow-direction&p=2980011&viewfull=1#post2980011
Thread now has 8 pages and several who know much more about all this than I do have posted comments.

 

[spidergoat]

Actually its how nearly all knowledge is proliferated as well. How much would you have learned about anything if you had never taken people's word on things?

If everyone had take people's word on things, I would have been able to learn almost nothing, since there would be no scientific discoveries.

 

[spidergoat]

Spidergoat, the path of knowledge goes through faith. I faith, I fly. I know this, me no skeptic. Doesn't knowledge state omniscience?

Be shy, not skeptical.

Try being coherent.