Does religion make us better people?

[wegs]

It's important to note that not every person 'reacts' to religion in the same way. Everyone's mileage may vary, so to speak. I grew up Catholic, and it was never forced on me. But, the Catholic Church has a way of instilling fear into a person, at a very young age. Fear of God. Fear of consequences. I won't deny that I feared God, more than I 'loved' him, growing up. If left unchecked, it can lead to an unhealthy view of love. That love somehow equates to fear and suffering (penance)

But...over the years as an adult, I've grown less attached to organized faith, and have developed a more meditative/prayerful life with God. I don't know if I'd be the way I am (not good or bad, just who I am) without believing in God, to be honest...because I have believed in him, all of my life. I've fallen away from organized religion, but don't see myself abandoning the idea that there is a ''higher power''...that there is a Creator.

But, should I ever stop believing in God, I would not assume that those who believe in him, are somehow being led astray. That I must save them from their ignorance. Not all people who believe in God...or even who find themselves following a religion, are 'brainwashed,' or 'miserable, but can't find a way out.'

Everyone's mileage varies when it comes to faith. It's a personal experience, and no two people will view it the same.
If a person is content with his or her life...it will show in how he/she treats others...how he/she views the world, and wishes to make a difference. Neither atheists nor religious have that market cornered.

Just my $.02 :m:

 

[arauca]

I don't know if it is a privilege, because there are also plenty of mentally ill who say they have voices in their heads. Therefore anyone claiming to have the voice of God in their head is liable to be sent to a psychiatrist and have a period of time in a mental hospital ward.
I have experienced those prophecies by evangelical prophets too. A lot would come from their own thoughts and feelings.
To really define what is from God and what is not is the issue. Tell me when you've figured it out.

Start, what is from God it will materialize . One of the examples , My nephew got married here with a New Zealander and moved to New Zealand , there was a prophesy through my sister that he was going to come back to his mothers house , He lived there for for about 6 years and at the 16 year he come back divorced tho his mother , his wife abandoned him . I have more then half of a dozen of such experiences , specially during WW2 while going through American bombardment , while gerrilla and German attacked our house , and in the present years. So why should I not believe , when God is guiding and admonishing us through the Holly spirit.

 

[Robittybob1]

Start, what is from God it will materialize . One of the examples , My nephew got married here with a New Zealander and moved to New Zealand , there was a prophesy through my sister that he was going to come back to his mothers house , He lived there for for about 6 years and at the 16 year he come back divorced tho his mother , his wife abandoned him . I have more then half of a dozen of such experiences , specially during WW2 while going through American bombardment , while guerrilla and German attacked our house , and in the present years. So why should I not believe , when God is guiding and admonishing us through the Holly spirit.

It sounds like you went through Hell back then. Such a long time ago too, so most of us would have no idea what those times were like, would you care to share them with us? For there would have to be a great testimony in them. I'd like to hear the 6 stories, definitely.
You are welcome to put them on the Christian Song thread if you like. And I'll find a song to go along with them. It would be very moving.

 

[Robittybob1]

In your previous post you were quibbling with yourself over when something is or isn't sinful. That sort of hypercritical self-scrutiny is what reminded me of my own religious experience. That for me was a crippling experience. It did not make me a better person. It sapped me of the natural self-confidence and courage a teen should be building in himself for later life. Religion left me with nothing to love in myself. Only by leaving it fully did I halfway regain the freedom and peace of just being who I am without judgment. Still in recovery basically. And no, I don't live on hope. Right now is pretty much where I live and focus my energies. And that's good enough for me.

Would you be able to demonstrate with an example of your philosophy when it comes to doing something that may have been previously considered taboo?
Do you have no problem with working on Sunday?
Are you charitable?
The only reason I'm asking you this is that you said about me "you were quibbling with yourself over when something is or isn't sinful". I want to see how free you are.
I relate to the sapping effect of religion, but at a later stage I challenged God to prove himself.
I wanted to know what direction I should go.
Have you ever done that?
Does the feeling equivalent to Karma come into your current thinking?

 

[geeser]

Would you be able to demonstrate with an example of your philosophy when it comes to doing something that may have been previously considered taboo?
Do you have no problem with working on Sunday?
Are you charitable?
The only reason I'm asking you this is that you said about me "you were quibbling with yourself over when something is or isn't sinful". I want to see how free you are.
I relate to the sapping effect of religion, but at a later stage I challenged God to prove himself.
I wanted to know what direction I should go.
Have you ever done that?
Does the feeling equivalent to Karma come into your current thinking?

Rob you posed several questions, which I found interesting, because from my point of view (that being a person who was never indoctrinated or inculcated into a cult/religion) they deserve an answer from me.

1, Would you be able to demonstrate with an example of your philosophy when it comes to doing something that may have been previously considered taboo?

No. It is not applicable.

2,Do you have no problem with working on Sunday?

Of course not, and if you look at different religions, you will notice that the Sabbath is on different days, Christianities actual Sabbath is a Saturday, but they changed it to Sunday However god said to keep the Sabbath holy. http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/which-day-is-the-christian-sabbath

3, Are you charitable?

Yes, more so than any religious person, I give my time and monies freely, I asked nothing of any person I help, it is an unselfish act, some may claim that getting pleasure from doing good, is self gratification. What I mean by unselfish is that I do not require them to pray or become part of a cult etc.....

4, The only reason I'm asking you this is that you said about me "you were quibbling with yourself over when something is or isn't sinful". I want to see how free you are.

I cannot sin, To sin would be to do something against God, I don't hold to that delusion.

5, I relate to the sapping effect of religion, but at a later stage I challenged God to prove himself.
I wanted to know what direction I should go.
Have you ever done that?

Yes I read up on religions, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduisn, I came to the conclusion that unless I have a major trauma or a blow to the head there was no way, I was either going to hear a god or become religious, it was far to far beyond reason.

6, Does the feeling equivalent to Karma come into your current thinking?

Karma is just a different word for revenge, I have no need for revenge as I live and let live, I hate no one but I can dislike some of the things they do, but to hate. No!

I think all religious people are victims, sadly all have the potential to do bad under the guise of their indoctrinated beliefs, as Jesus character said "forgive them for they know not what they do".

 

[Robittybob1]

Rob you posed several questions, which I found interesting, because from my point of view (that being a person who was never indoctrinated or inculcated into a cult/religion) they deserve an answer from me.No. It is not applicable. Of course not, and if you look at different religions, you will notice that the Sabbath is on different days, Christianities actual Sabbath is a Saturday, but they changed it to Sunday However god said to keep the Sabbath holy. http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/which-day-is-the-christian-sabbath Yes, more so than any religious person, I give my time and monies freely, I asked nothing of any person I help, it is an unselfish act, some may claim that getting pleasure from doing good, is self gratification. What I mean by unselfish is that I do not require them to pray or become part of a cult etc..... I cannot sin, To sin would be to do something against God, I don't hold to that delusion.Yes I read up on religions, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduisn, I came to the conclusion that unless I have a major trauma or a blow to the head there was no way, I was either going to hear a god or become religious, it was far to far beyond reason. Karma is just a different word for revenge, I have no need for revenge as I live and let live, I hate no one but I can dislike some of the things they do, but to hate. No!

I think all religious people are victims, sadly all have the potential to do bad under the guise of their indoctrinated beliefs, as Jesus character said "forgive them for they know not what they do".

Geeser thanks. So is there anything that you still consider taboo, just something that you wouldn't do, something that might seem to be against your conscience.
Like you find $1000 lying on the foot path what would you do?
The man while escaping from your house after making love to your wife, has just cut the artery in his leg on the broken window and will bleed to death unless an ambulance is called immediately. Would you assist or just let him die?
One that happened to me. You know the guy, who your partner adores more than she does you, is about to get bottled, would you warn and protect him from attack?

 

[OriginalBiggles]

Does religion make us people any worse?
There has always been a religion.

We all believe in something. I will believe there is a GOD and I will kick the bucket and die at some damn point.

Hope there is a valhalla when I go, or a jesus to ask questions too. Or a Buddha to show me peace, or a Merlin to share some cool magic tricks. Or Druids to share learning. And I don't come back like the Dog I AM

I'd be most appreciative if you would explain what you intended when you wrote: "We all believe in something." as it pertains to the context of your post.

To facilitate matters, I point out that as I see it, you may include the notion of believing in one's own self, in one's abilities and intelligence to live a satisfying and productive life among one's fellows in society. Then again, that notion might be entirely irrelevant to what you intended.

Hence my question.

 

[geeser]

Geeser thanks. So is there anything that you still consider taboo, just something that you wouldn't do, something that might seem to be against your conscience.

Because of the thread title I didn't think what you said originally was relevant to me. however the there are a myriad of things that are taboo to me, but none of them involve a god creature, nor religion.

Like you find $1000 lying on the foot path what would you do?

Try to find the owner, if not hand it in at the police station, as I did twice before, when I was a child. There is an obscure law here, called stealing by finding.

The man while escaping from your house after making love to your wife, has just cut the artery in his leg on the broken window and will bleed to death unless an ambulance is called immediately. Would you assist or just let him die?

Of course I would assist, he may have been screwing my wife, but he doesn't deserve death for it.

One that happened to me. You know the guy, who your partner adores more than she does you, is about to get bottled, would you warn and protect him from attack?

Yes I would warn him. Nobody deserve bodily harm, that is one of my taboos. if you have a disagreement with someone you should try ever other resource at your disposal and avoid coming to blow no matter what the reason is for the dispute.

 

[Robittybob1]

Because of the thread title I didn't think what you said originally was relevant to me. however the there are a myriad of things that are taboo to me, but none of them involve a god creature, nor religion.
Try to find the owner, if not hand it in at the police station, as I did twice before, when I was a child. There is an obscure law here, called stealing by finding.
Of I would assist, he may have been screwing my wife, but he doesn't deserve death for it.
Yes I would warn him. Nobody deserve bodily harm, that is one of my taboos. if you have a disagreement with someone you should try ever other resource at your disposal and avoid coming to blow no matter what the reason is for the dispute.

I'll use the words that Jesus said "Geeser you are not far from entering the Kingdom of God"

 

[wegs]

Please provide Biblical passages, when citing things Jesus said. It would be helpful, thanks.

 

[Robittybob1]

Please provide Biblical passages, when citing things Jesus said. It would be helpful, thanks.

I was in a hurry I'll find it soon. He may have misspelled Geeser's name but the meaning was the same.

 

[wegs]

I know But, it's just a pet peeve of mine...that should there be a heaven, none of us know who's 'heading there.' I have friends who say similar things, but no one knows.

 

[Robittybob1]

Please provide Biblical passages, when citing things Jesus said. It would be helpful, thanks.

Mark 12:29-34 we have a scribe asking Jesus, “Which is the first commandment of all?" Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

What Geeser posted were answers that showed an incredible love for his neighbour.
Handing in the money.
Calling the ambulance for someone who has hurt him.
Warning the person he probably dislikes the most.

3 very difficult things for most guys.

 

[wegs]

Very good, thank you for posting the passage!
My opinion ...all people struggle with similar things.
Truth is...it's the everyday mundane things that trip ppl up more when it comes to sin than larger "sins."
Envy, pride, selfishness, gossip, lying, slander, uncharitable comments, etc...like a leaky faucet...such things can become a flood if done little by little against our "neighbor" everyday. They seem harmless and not as gigantic as stealing or adultery. But harming one's neighbor takes many forms.

 

[Robittybob1]

Very good, thank you for posting the passage!
My opinion ...all people struggle with similar things.
Truth is...it's the everyday mundane things that trip ppl up more when it comes to sin than larger "sins."
Envy, pride, selfishness, gossip, lying, slander, uncharitable comments, etc...like a leaky faucet...such things can become a flood if done little by little against our "neighbor" everyday. They seem harmless and not as gigantic as stealing or adultery. But harming one's neighbor takes many forms.

Personally I work on all of those daily. I see pleasure craft and fishing boats being towed along the highway. Don't feel envious. I try not to.
Pride - I need more pride not less of it.
Selfishness - Now that is a tricky one. Is there no such as one's own possessions? I'm charitable but a touch selfish at the same time, I'm not going to give it all away again, or should I?
Gossip - no
Lying - no
Slander - no
Uncharitable comments - I do my best.

What about the things that hurts us most? Should people be allowed to do that?

Rejection, abuse, prejudice, shunning. To be rejected hurts, To be shunned hurts, to be abused hurts. To feel the victim of prejudice hurts.

Punishment maybe required at times. I'm a bit lost ... will pick it up later.

 

[wegs]

Personally I work on all of those daily. I see pleasure craft and fishing boats being towed along the highway. Don't feel envious. I try not to.
Pride - I need more pride not less of it.
Selfishness - Now that is a tricky one. Is there no such as one's own possessions? I'm charitable but a touch selfish at the same time, I'm not going to give it all away again, or should I?
Gossip - no
Lying - no
Slander - no
Uncharitable comments - I do my best.

What about the things that hurts us most? Should people be allowed to do that?

Rejection, abuse, prejudice, shunning. To be rejected hurts, To be shunned hurts, to be abused hurts. To feel the victim of prejudice hurts.

Punishment maybe required at times. I'm a bit lost ... will pick it up later.

All those things can wound, yes.
The list is long. I've hurt people in my life and people have hurt me. The best we can do is be cognizant of our wrongs and try to atone for them. Atonement should bring healing ...eventually. We are all works in progress.

 

[Robittybob1]

All those things can wound, yes.
The list is long. I've hurt people in my life and people have hurt me. The best we can do is be cognizant of our wrongs and try to atone for them. Atonement should bring healing ...eventually. We are all works in progress.

So a person has to sit there and think "What have I done wrong?". Wasn't the correct and Christian way to tell the other person what was hurtful about their behaviour? Only then can a true understanding result.
The forums are an ideal medium for that, I see people telling each other off all the time, and hopefully it improves their overall behaviour.
Yet I do know some Christian churches advocate shunning and rejection as a matter of delivering admonition without the required debate beforehand. Having been on the receiving end of that I know it is destructive.

Atonement - what is that? Atonement by saying; "I am sorry for hurting you even though I don't know what I've done", isn't real atonement.
I see in the OT it was if you stole something you might have to make up for it 10 fold. Keep the $1000 you find on the footpath and you have to repay $10,000.
You are just as guilty if you leave it there instead.
Interesting concept of atonement for the items on the list. It would be hard to think of how you could atone for the feeling of envy.

 

[wegs]

So a person has to sit there and think "What have I done wrong?". Wasn't the correct and Christian way to tell the other person what was hurtful about their behaviour? Only then can a true understanding result.
The forums are an ideal medium for that, I see people telling each other off all the time, and hopefully it improves their overall behaviour.
Yet I do know some Christian churches advocate shunning and rejection as a matter of delivering admonition without the required debate beforehand. Having been on the receiving end of that I know it is destructive.

Atonement - what is that? Atonement by saying; "I am sorry for hurting you even though I don't know what I've done", isn't real atonement.
I see in the OT it was if you stole something you might have to make up for it 10 fold. Keep the $1000 you find on the footpath and you have to repay $10,000.
You are just as guilty if you leave it there instead.
Interesting concept of atonement for the items on the list. It would be hard to think of how you could atone for the feeling of envy.

Sometimes, atonement is about forgiving ourselves for the wrongs we've done. I find that can be the hardest of all...

 

[Robittybob1]

Sometimes, atonement is about forgiving ourselves for the wrongs we've done. I find that can be the hardest of all...

I don't know how to forgive myself. All the wrongs I've ever done are piling up against me, even when I have asked for forgiveness from the Lord and I know he has forgiven me, I still can't forgive myself.

 

[wegs]

I don't know how to forgive myself. All the wrongs I've ever done are piling up against me, even when I have asked for forgiveness from the Lord and I know he has forgiven me, I still can't forgive myself.

Aw, really?

It takes time. It really does. You'll get there. One day atta time, ya know?