Does Omniscience Limit Free Will?

[Mind Over Matter]

Taken from http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=2476

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

There is a huge difference between knowing what you will do and controlling what you will do.

As an example, if you toss a coin in the air, it will come up randomly, either heads or tails. Well, it is not exactly random. It depends upon physical factors ie, mass of coin, force of toss, spin, gravity, distance to floor, etc. If I knew the relevant information, I could "know" in advance whether it would land on heads or tails. Omniscience has its advantages. :thumbsup:

As another example, my friend Steve is a large man who loves pastry. At a party I offer him a tray of cookies. Half of the cookies are Nabisco Wafers. The other half are Double Stuffed Oreos. I know which cookies Steve is going to take. I didn't control him. Knowledge is the key - not control.

 

[NMSquirrel]

My parents had a pretty good idea what choices i would make when they released me to the world, so much so that it almost qualifies as omniscience..that has no bearing to my freedom to choose my own course of action.

so i agree when you say knowing all does not mean control.

to the scientist:
hehe..how many scientists try to know all..does knowing all mean you can control all?
keep in mind i am not speaking of a desire to know all ...i am speaking of actually knowing.

 

[Dywyddyr]

As another example, my friend Steve is a large man who loves pastry. At a party I offer him a tray of cookies. Half of the cookies are Nabisco Wafers. The other half are Double Stuffed Oreos. I know which cookies Steve is going to take. I didn't control him. Knowledge is the key - not control.

Ridiculously false example.
For one you do NOT know. You have a good idea. You have a range of probabilities which are heavily weighted toward what you think you know he will do.

For the hard of thinking I'll run through it one more time:
For something to be known it must be true. I.e. not subject to probability but ineluctably, irrevocably true. Therefore there cannot be any other option than the one that is known.
If god knows you will choose option A then you cannot ever, under any circumstance choose B. If the future is known (as it must be with omniscience) then all we are doing is following a pre-written script that we ourselves are unaware of. The fact that we are unaware of the script is what gives us the illusion of free will. The fact that god knows means we don't.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Your stating to understand silos of information there sport . Random to Me is a lack of information . Pretty simple idea really . Can we account for all variables ? Probably not seeing how zero is not unlike infinity in some respects . I mean really what the fuck is a quark or even a neutrino. What is the lower limit ? And could we ever detect it to to its completeness . What if I was quark ? What would I see below Me . Is there more layers of the absurd relationship below that . Could you even know unless you were a quark . Same above . If you were the Universe what would you see above your self .

O.K. I got one from my son . He says space is infinite . Like a model of the inverse Sq. Law from a point . Going out from that point in all direction space is infinite. I thought that was pretty good thinking for a 14 year old . I can see it too. Could be infinite space and the things that fill space are the true anomaly. Space is the common denominator so to speak . Cold empty -273 degree space . That be the constant . Any heat above that is the differential. The heat causes the rise and fall of vibration . Sends out frequency and that frequency collides with each other and created things in the space . What could cause heat in a cold space ? ??? Friction ?? Can you cause a fire if you rub 2 pieces of ice violently enough ? I don't know Speculating . What would happen if you rubbed 2 spaces together violently ? I don't know ?

O.K. Dig this :
Speculation : We live in the shared area of 2 spaces . If you can't have area with out space ( Constant empty -273 degree space and given ( like it was god ) space is in bubble circular form the spheres of space over lap each other so that space is contentious with out any braking of the link . The spaces move in opposition to each other and cause heat in the shared space . Which gives rise to frequency by opposition which in turn gives rise to differential , which gives rise to frequency collision which gives rise to matter , which gives rise to gravity wells , which causes more heat , which causes more complex frequency, which collides and causes more complex frequency. Mixing so to speak . Building blocks of clumping

 

[Dywyddyr]

Your stating to understand silos of information there sport

Addressed to whom?

Because if it's addressed to me I suggest you re-read what I wrote.

 

[kx000]

No omniscience is visioned around the free will of man.

 

[Dywyddyr]

No omniscience is visioned around the free will of man.

Then it's not omniscience.
Stop making ridiculous "arguments".

 

[kx000]

Then it's not omniscience.
Stop making ridiculous "arguments".

How so? Explain to me how YOU know? You are the last person on this forum to speak about anything religious, as you have proven over and over you have no faith, there for no valuable input. At least other anti-theist make valuable suggestions. All you do is badger people about faith, and grammatical errors.

All you degrees, and inventions will not get you closer to God.

Omniscient: is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe.

God gave us free will so we didn't just do what he said, or any ruler said, free will is a test. However, God is omniscient, he knows everything, the ending has been determined. Whats that 'C' word im looking for? Compatibilism.

 

[Dywyddyr]

How so? Explain to me how YOU know?

Already explained.

You are the last person on this forum to speak about anything religious, as you have proven over and over you have no faith, there for no valuable input.

Oh! What an excellent argument. Because I don't believe in god I can't possibly have any input on the subject.
Please explain how simply having belief qualifies YOU to to speak about anything religious - bearing in mind your constant refrain that the Bible and the Quran are bullshit and all religions are wrong.

At least other anti-theist make valuable suggestions.

Anti-theist? :shrug:

All you degrees, and inventions will not get you closer to God.

Oops, assumptions.

Omniscient: is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe.

Make your mind up. Is it know everything or know everything that can be known about a person?

God gave us free will

Assumption.

However, God is omniscient, he knows everything

Which, as previously explained, precludes free will.

Whats that 'C' word im looking for? Compatibilism.

"Crap" would be closer.

Instead of simply attacking me and making declarations without support please provide a line of reasoning to back up your claims.

It appears that "goddidit" is your sole "argument" so far.

 

[kx000]

Oh! What an excellent argument. Because I don't believe in god I can't possibly have any input on the subject.
Please explain how simply having belief qualifies YOU to to speak about anything religious - bearing in mind your constant refrain that the Bible and the Quran are bullshit and all religions are wrong.

Essentially you have no input on the subject. God specifically says not to listen to people like you.

He who hath an ear let him hear what the LORD saith unto the churches.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Essentially you have no input on the subject.

Wrong.

God specifically says not to listen to people like you.

How do you know?

So, at a guess, you can't actually support your nonsensical "argument".
Okay.
That's yet another zero-input/ value series of posts from you.

 

[Believe]

Ridiculously false example.
For one you do NOT know. You have a good idea. You have a range of probabilities which are heavily weighted toward what you think you know he will do.

For the hard of thinking I'll run through it one more time:
For something to be known it must be true. I.e. not subject to probability but ineluctably, irrevocably true. Therefore there cannot be any other option than the one that is known.
If god knows you will choose option A then you cannot ever, under any circumstance choose B. If the future is known (as it must be with omniscience) then all we are doing is following a pre-written script that we ourselves are unaware of. The fact that we are unaware of the script is what gives us the illusion of free will. The fact that god knows means we don't.

I disagree, the script is not dictated it is only observed. Knowing what choice will be made and NOT getting to make a choice are different. The choice is only pre-ordained because the future is known.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I disagree, the script is not dictated it is only observed.

Where did I say "dictated"? If the script exists and is true then our choices are already made and fixed.

Knowing what choice will be made and NOT getting to make a choice are different.

If the choice is known before hand (i.e. omniscience) then we cannot choose anything other than what is known that we WILL choose.

The choice is only pre-ordained because the future is known.

Um, pre-ordained: predestination: zero free will.

 

[kx000]

Wrong.

Sorry, im right. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

 

[Believe]

Where did I say "dictated"? If the script exists and is true then our choices are already made and fixed.


If the choice is known before hand (i.e. omniscience) then we cannot choose anything other than what is known that we WILL choose.


Um, pre-ordained: predestination: zero free will.

Again, the fact that what you chose is know does not mean that you did not choose it.

I.E. What you are saying effectively is that if I ask someone to choose red or blue, left or right, predator or aliens , and then I know the answer because they tell it to me (in other words they made the choice), that they did not have a choice in the matter. Knowing the future is just like someone answering the question. It does not mean that the choice wasn't there in the first place, only that it was made.

 

[kx000]

Ridiculously false example.
For one you do NOT know. You have a good idea. You have a range of probabilities which are heavily weighted toward what you think you know he will do.

If god knows you will choose option A then you cannot ever, under any circumstance choose B.

First, God does not care about the options, only the outcome. If you have option A, and option B you will choose as you will, and stuck in an infinite 20 minute lime loop you will always make that choice.

If the future is known (as it must be with omniscience) then all we are doing is following a pre-written script that we ourselves are unaware of.

We are the writers, producers, actors, and film crew of this script.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Again, the fact that what you chose is know does not mean that you did not choose it.

Apart from the fact that you could not choose otherwise. That effectively means no choice. If they could choose otherwise then you would not know beforehand what they were going to pick.

I.E. What you are saying effectively is that if I ask someone to choose red or blue, left or right, predator or aliens , and then I know the answer because they tell it to me (in other words they made the choice), that they did not have a choice in the matter.

If you KNOW what they will choose (i.e it is true that they WILL choose that) then they did not actually have a choice. It is TRUE that they will choose X then they cannot possibly choose anything else.

It does not mean that the choice wasn't there in the first place

Yes it does.

 

[Dywyddyr]

For one you do NOT know. You have a good idea. You have a range of probabilities which are heavily weighted toward what you think you know he will do.

Um, that's exactly what I said. What's your point? Or are you just too lazy to quote properly?

First, God does not care about the options

How do you know?

only the outcome. If you have option A, and option B you will choose as you will, and stuck in an infinite 20 minute lime loop you will always make that choice.

QED. There is no choice. We do not choose as we will, simply as we are scripted to do.

We are the writers, producers, actors, and film crew of this script.

Another unsubstantiated and unsupported claim. In fact it's one you have just argued against. As you said "we will always make that choice". We can't make any other.

 

[kx000]

If you KNOW what they will choose (i.e it is true that they WILL choose that) then they did not actually have a choice. It is TRUE that they will choose X then they cannot possibly choose anything else.

Knowing the outcome does not mean you manipulated the outcome. The man willed option A, God merely knew the outcome.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Knowing the outcome does not mean you manipulated the outcome.

Please try to keep up. There was (and is) no mention whatsoever of manipulation.

The man willed option A, God merely knew the outcome.

An outcome that was pre-ordained and that we could never alter.