Does God believe in man?

Mystee,

I don't even need a response. (Though I am sure I will get one)
Perhaps something gentle then.

I am talking about real life.
And so am I, and I am usually deadly serious.

In real life, as you said, nothing is beyond doubt. How then can you always ask for proof?
If it was something trivial then I might agree, but you are asking for a belief on the origin of the universe and a matter of eternal life or torment, and a belief in a man who you claim is probably the most important man ever to have existed. These are monumental issues, yet you offer nothing substantial in the way of evidence. This does not mean that your claims are false just that there is a massive credibility gap between the colossal claims and the miniscule and controversial evidence. You should not then be surprised when so many will literally find your claims laughable.

It is not just the lack and low quality of the evidence claimed but the highly charged emotionalism that is presented in its absence. In the world of salesmanship the salesman with the highest quality product at the best price rarely has to say anything, the product sells itself. The con man though has nothing and relies entirely on the emotions for his sales. Do you see how your style here is identical to the latter case?

Not scientific theories and fossils. Man, I don't know about you guys but that's not enough for me.
Don’t so easily discount what you don’t appear to understand. There is little emotion in precision, accuracy, and facts, and perhaps that is why they do not appeal to you but the discoveries of science usually take phenomenal amounts of work, many years, and immense intelligence and focus. That is real life.

But what if there is more?
And how are you going to find it? By dreaming up more fantasies to explain the god stories that already make no sense? The quality of life you experience today in terms of medical care, communications, the internet, hygiene, farming, the distribution systems that allow you to buy almost anything at a local supermarket, are the result of science, hard work. Show me something that religion has produced that adds any degree of quality to life other than baseless dreams.

Have you ever taken an exam on a difficult subject; if you have then perhaps you realize how much hard work is required to achieve any worthwhile objective. Finding solutions to death, and the pain and misery of disease that form the lives of many unfortunate people will take hard work, science, and focus. Religion does not solve any of these types of problem.

Religion promises only one thing – when you die you will live eternally in paradise. Jesus is alleged to have said ‘believe in me and you shall have everlasting life’, and this is the very basis of Christianity, it is why you follow all the rules; e.g. love everyone, love your neighbor, follow the life of Jesus, etc. And you wonder why so many people believe in Christianity. Eternal life and paradise! Ever heard the phrase ‘if it’s too good to be true, then it almost certainly isn’t true’?

It isn’t going to be easy to achieve those dreams; it is going to take hard work, just like everything else in real life. Perhaps if you had even the remotest scrap of evidence that such things could exist then you might get some attention.
 
How about this, does god KNOW about man?
Has anyone seen that episode of futurama where the robot gets shot out to space? He floats around the universe for a while and life forms on his stomach blah blah blah and he eventually runs into god who looks like a swirling galaxy, he tells god all his problems on earth and then god says "earth? wheres that?"

I thought that was pretty interesting, maybe there was some kind of god who sparked the big bang or whatever but has no idea what happened after that, maybe life just happened to form and he doesn't even know.
 
Religion promises only one thing – when you die you will live eternally in paradise. Jesus is alleged to have said ‘believe in me and you shall have everlasting life’, and this is the very basis of Christianity, it is why you follow all the rules; e.g. love everyone, love your neighbor, follow the life of Jesus, etc. And you wonder why so many people believe in Christianity. Eternal life and paradise! Ever heard the phrase ‘if it’s too good to be true, then it almost certainly isn’t true’?
Jesus was not talking just about the afterlife. John 6:53 "Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." Those who do not have life within them cannot do God's will. Unless if you completely reject everything Jesus said, then you believe in Jesus a little bit. God is the source of all good and truth. If you cannot define absolute goodness and truth then what basis do you have to say that it's too good to be true.
 
"No I'm not saying that science and God cannot go together. What I mean is that saying the universe just came to existance is as crazy, if not more so, than saying that evolution has no truth. The only real difference is that those who say the universe just came into existance use fancier math than the creationists. "

Firstly, I would say creationists use no math at all.
You are mistaken. Scientists claim ignorance when it comes to what exactly caused the existence of the universe. For the umpteenth time: ignorance doesnt imply God, in fact it doesnt imply anything! We, bieng the objective people we are, do NOT claim that the universe just came into existence.

"...they contain religious truth."

This means nothing to me. Same as fantasy truth. And thats no truth at all.

"...only by the spirit of Truth..."

I do not know this spirit. It certainly isnt something universal. I doubt the muslims believe any less in their spirits than the christians.

"I can probably come up with 100s of miracles each generation. Each believer in itself is a witness. "

These miracles arent consistent, thats the problem. There are also many mistakes and lies. Though I cannot outright deny them. However I do believe in the power of positive thinking. Once again, religion decieves itself. As for the witnesses, the represent to me the naivety and gullible nature of humans.

"Unless if you can say otherwise, the only properties of air that you know of is its interaction with other matter. You know that something reflects light. It looks like it as shape. The brain automatically fills in some of perspective of the object in a very complicated process and then you see it. However it remains that you only saw something interact with light. You cannot prove that the other matter exist or that air exists. You could in fact define air simply by its interactions but you cannot prove that anything exist which are causing those interactions. "

You are saying, very simply, that our perceptions cannot be trusted to give the absolute truth. The point is we can prove it beyond REASONABLE DOUBT. That is all reality allows us.
If you are implying that God inteacts with the universe, it has yet to be measured.

"No, just that we cannot use our rational thinking alone to find God."

You seem to think there is something besides rational thinking that is acceptable. Rational thinking is our ONLY ally. This is not opinion but self evident. Sense makes sense dammit!
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Jesus was not talking just about the afterlife. John 6:53 "Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you."

This is where canabalism rears its ugly head in Xianity.

Those who do not have life within them cannot do God's will.

If people don't have life within them, they're dead. Although I don't believe in spiritual death, your statement is misleading.

Unless if you completely reject everything Jesus said, then you believe in Jesus a little bit.

I don't reject what we assume Jesus said. I reject Xianity's interpretation of what Jesus said. Had Xianity not gotten in the way of Jesus or his teachings, thanks to Saul/Paul, he would be a more reliable figure in the history of the world.

God is the source of all good and truth. If you cannot define absolute goodness and truth then what basis do you have to say that it's too good to be true.

okinrus, you say this is the basis of all Xianity? I thought the basis for Xianity was the resurrection? Isn't that what Saul/Paul said? Which version of Xianity do you believe? Saul/Paul was the self-serving liar who created Xianity--not Jesus! Like I've told you before--you're quoting from the wrong book.
 
Firstly, I would say creationists use no math at all.
You are mistaken. Scientists claim ignorance when it comes to what exactly caused the existence of the universe. For the umpteenth time: ignorance doesnt imply God, in fact it doesnt imply anything! We, bieng the objective people we are, do NOT claim that the universe just came into existence.
If that was true, then all scientists would be agnostics.

I do not know this spirit. It certainly isnt something universal. I doubt the muslims believe any less in their spirits than the christians.
The muslims in strict islamic countries are forced to believe. They cannot give up the faith without being persecuted. They only have blind faith and much of this is the result of poor education on other religions.

These miracles arent consistent, thats the problem. There are also many mistakes and lies.
Show me a miracle that is as credible as the one at Fatima that contradicts the faith. There is none.

You are saying, very simply, that our perceptions cannot be trusted to give the absolute truth. The point is we can prove it beyond REASONABLE DOUBT. That is all reality allows us.
If you are implying that God inteacts with the universe, it has yet to be measured.
I could just as well call source of the interactions God. There is no logical reason why we would assume the existance of air molecules.

You seem to think there is something besides rational thinking that is acceptable. Rational thinking is our ONLY ally. This is not opinion but self evident. Sense makes sense dammit!
Your own rational thinking will not get you anywhere in your search for God. God has to reveal himself. Also we have no rational basis for anything to exist. The only proof of existance we have is how an object reacts with other objects that we have not proved to exist. So we have to ask why you are able to tell that air exists and God doesn't?
 
God revealing himself

Originally posted by okinrus


Show me a miracle that is as credible as the one at Fatima that contradicts the faith. There is none.




I could just as well call source of the interactions God. There is no logical reason why we would assume the existance of air molecules.


Your own rational thinking will not get you anywhere in your search for God. God has to reveal himself. Also we have no rational basis for anything to exist. The only proof of existance we have is how an object reacts with other objects that we have not proved to exist. So we have to ask why you are able to tell that air exists and God doesn't?

The Fatima prophecies were opened and read by Pope John 23rd. When he read Lucia's third secret, he was so shocked that he passed out! The RCC decided not to reveal this secret as it would destroy the church. I believe the secret to be that Jesus lived and the truth was told about he and MM being married with children.

Rational thinking is what true believers experience when they know God is in them and they are in God. It really can't be explained, but there is a "knowing." God does reveal himself to certain people, but I'm afraid you are not one of them.
 
You have your chance to disproof Fatima. Obviously you did not. The third secret some how related to an assassination attempt on the Pope. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/747312.stm

Rational thinking is what true believers experience when they know God is in them and they are in God. It really can't be explained, but there is a "knowing." God does reveal himself to certain people, but I'm afraid you are not one of them.
You don't know me.
 
Okinrus,

"If that was true, then all scientists would be agnostics."

I would say they are... So am I. Science doesnt have a opinion as such on God. It knows what it knows. As I have explained, God just doesnt seem plausible.

"The muslims in strict islamic countries are forced to believe. They cannot give up the faith without being persecuted. They only have blind faith and much of this is the result of poor education on other religions. "

Hmmm, you are losing me. All religions have blind faith...

"I could just as well call source of the interactions God. There is no logical reason why we would assume the existance of air molecules. "

Yes, and you could also call it a green monkey. Whats your point?
I cannot believe u actually wrote the next sentence. It is beyond me. Pray to your God for mercy!!! OMG, Im having a heart attack!!
Tell your parents, I send my sympahties. Up to now your comments were fairly reasonable, actually enjoyable. Peace be with u. *walks away, mumbles, walks on, drops dead..*

"So we have to ask why you are able to tell that air exists and God doesn't?"

Let me spoonfeed the obvious. Because, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF AIR. We can see an oxygen molecule, we cannot see God. While this doesnt in itself mean the oxygen molecule or God is there or not, it does show that the existence of Oxy is a MUCH MORE of a REASONABLE ASSUMPTION. As we all know, assumption is the mother of all ****ups. However, are u going to sue me for trusting my eyes?
Ive already been over this, ya know.

P.S. Interesting, while attacking my view you have disproved your own conviction. If you believe what u just said, you admit the possibility of knowing shit, nothing or shit plus nothing. Faith cannot work with doubt...

Good night for now...
:rolleyes:
 
Hmmm, you are losing me. All religions have blind faith...
Everyone has a seed of faith. There is nothing blind about it. Consistant prayer grows the tree of faith and God or Mary can speak to you.

I'm also not saying that all muslims do not have faith or true faith. They will have to give up Islamic rules such as having no non-islamic friends or hating cursing Jews/unbelievers. The Islamic faith is not 100% correct, but there is still truth that was copied from christianity.

Let me spoonfeed the obvious. Because, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF AIR.
You are only seeing light that is reflected off of a "air molecule". This light travels to you eye. All of this is fed back to glob of cells called "you" that we also cannot prove exists. If we cannot prove that anything exists, how do we even know the definition of what to exist means.

We can see an oxygen molecule, we cannot see God.
You do not see an oxygen molecule. Only the artifacts of one. John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

P.S. Interesting, while attacking my view you have disproved your own conviction. If you believe what u just said, you admit the possibility of knowing shit, nothing or shit plus nothing. Faith cannot work with doubt...
Yes exactly. We cannot know anything except what was given to us by God.
 
Okinrus,

Everyone has a seed of faith.
I’ve noticed that those who use faith say this a lot. It is false of course but I think they have to say it so that in some way they can avoid admitting they are irrational and are really like everyone else. I.e. if they are irrational then so is everyone else. But those who take care with how they think never have a need to use blind faith like this.

Consistent prayer grows the tree of faith and God or Mary can speak to you.
It’s a kind of creepy that people who believe such things actually mix with the general public.

You are only seeing light that is reflected off of a "air molecule". This light travels to you eye. All of this is fed back to glob of cells called "you" that we also cannot prove exists. If we cannot prove that anything exists, how do we even know the definition of what to exist means.
We can prove all these things. You don’t have a point.

You do not see an oxygen molecule. Only the artifacts of one.
Whatever you wish, however, it leaves a trail regardless as you say; the artifacts. Therefore it exists. The same can’t be said about gods. For that there are no artifacts that can be said to point to the existence of gods.

We cannot know anything except what was given to us by God.
A dream plucked from thin air.
 
We can prove all these things. You don’t have a point.
No you cannot. Everything that we know about the universe comes from observation or at least that is the claim based by science. We don't really know that a carbon atom exists. We just observe weight, interactions with other chemical atoms, interactions with electrons etc. So you cannot prove to me that a carbon atom exists. The only difference is that God trail is the energy and matter of the Universe. It is all of his creation.

Whatever you wish, however, it leaves a trail regardless as you say; the artifacts. Therefore it exists. The same can’t be said about gods. For that there are no artifacts that can be said to point to the existence of gods.
I've already mentioned Fatima. 70,000 saw the miracle. This is more than most scientific papers are read.

It’s a kind of creepy that people who believe such things actually mix with the general public.
Why? You wanted proof. Just stop trying to look in the physical realm, God said not to worship the sun, moon and stars anyways. Look for evidence in the spiritual realm. Jesus said he wanted to be worshiped in spirit and truth.
 
Okinrus,

Everything that we know about the universe comes from observation or at least that is the claim based by science.
Anything that can be observed, detected, and/or measured, can be said to exist. If none apply then nothing useful can be said about the alleged object.

We don't really know that a carbon atom exists. We just observe weight, interactions with other chemical atoms, interactions with electrons etc. So you cannot prove to me that a carbon atom exists.
You are confusing reality with the label. If all those measurements are taken then the object or phenomenon exists, what we call it is largely arbitrary.

The only difference is that God trail is the energy and matter of the Universe. It is all of his creation.
Except that all such trails can be adequately labeled with other names making the God label redundant.

I've already mentioned Fatima. 70,000 saw the miracle. This is more than most scientific papers are read.
Many saw something that they can’t explain by anything known. That doesn’t make it a miracle or that the source was a god. All you have is something that is unknown.
 
You cannot really say that your car exist. You know it takes up space, reflects light, and has a weight. Just these three properties are enought to convince the entire world that the car exists. However all these things are taken for existance because your car is a physical object. God is not a physical object. He reveals himself to whom he pleases and those who search for him. The evidence of God given to most people is entirely spiritual. They might hear an inner voice that says "trust me", "are you hear yet?" or to go a certain way. However what makes you think that this evidence is no less valid then the evidence that the car exists?

What about this <a href="http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian7.htm">miracle</a>?
It's completely remarkable. It has been caught on photograph seen by people of other faiths.
 
Originally posted by =SputniK-CL=
Okinrus,

"If that was true, then all scientists would be agnostics."

I would say they are... So am I. Science doesnt have a opinion as such on God. It knows what it knows. As I have explained, God just doesnt seem plausible.


Nope. Sorry, there are plenty of christian scientists. Just because they don't believe in evolution or certain other theories doesn't mean they are not scientists. Scientists disargee all the time; it doesn't make any of them any less of a scientist.

[QUOTE"So we have to ask why you are able to tell that air exists and God doesn't?"

Let me spoonfeed the obvious. Because, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF AIR. We can see an oxygen molecule, we cannot see God. While this doesnt in itself mean the oxygen molecule or God is there or not, it does show that the existence of Oxy is a MUCH MORE of a REASONABLE ASSUMPTION. As we all know, assumption is the mother of all ****ups. However, are u going to sue me for trusting my eyes?
Ive already been over this, ya know.[/QUOTE]

Have you yourself seen an air molecule? My guess is no. So how do you know it is real? because you know of people who have seen air molecules, so you believe that we have the technology to see air and it exists. So have you seen or felt God? no, but you know of people who have. What's the difference. You are making a choice not to believe, and it is not bassed on a lack of proof.

Christ's Love,

Mystee
 
Nope. Sorry, there are plenty of christian scientists. Just because they don't believe in evolution or certain other theories doesn't mean they are not scientists.

They must be very bad scientists if they don’t agree on overwhelming evidence in favor of a theory. Most scientists (good ones) would never allow their emotions or religious views to alter their agreement of observation.

Have you yourself seen an air molecule? My guess is no. So how do you know it is real? because you know of people who have seen air molecules, so you believe that we have the technology to see air and it exists. So have you seen or felt God? no, but you know of people who have. What's the difference. You are making a choice not to believe, and it is not bassed on a lack of proof.

Nonsense. Molecules can be observed and have been observed – gods have not. You are making a choice to believe and not to observe.
 
Okinrus, you ass.....

"Yes exactly. We cannot know anything except what was given to us by God."

Ive had enough of you abusing reason for a supposed advantage and abandoning it the moment you feel like it. Once again logic and reason doesnt mix with faith and religion!!!
You actually argue that we cannot know that anything actually EXISTS, but then claim to know with certainty what "god" has given us. This is perverted and disgusting. If you cannot, BY YOUR OWN GOD DAMN RATIONAL, prove that your mind, your feelings exist, then how can you posses ABSOLUTE CONVICTION as is required by faith in God???

THE FACT IS, Religion CANNOT use REASON to SUPPORT itself~~! SO DONT EVEN TRY. IT DOESNT MIX. BECAUSE, DAMNIT, GOD ISNT REASONABLE NOR PROVABLE, only subjective to your INDOCTRINATED overly emotional mind.

:rolleyes:
 
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