Does God believe in man?

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Mystee
wesmorris,

You say you are a critical thinker.

I am. Read some of my posts maybe.

Originally posted by Mystee

Why then, rather than attempting to answer my questions, have you said just what I said in my post I had heard before?

Because you are obviously so confounded that it would be an utter waste of my time. I have a family for chrissake. You won't believe this, but I too have good intentions and was trying to share my wisdom with you in the manner which was most efficient for both of us.

Originally posted by Mystee

I would expect more from a true critical thinker than insults and rhetoric.

I didn't intend to insult you. I intended to open your eyes to your own incredible ignorance. You are apparently not at all interested. I figured as much, but always feel compelled to try and help.. even when it's almost surely going to fail. In those cases however.. I keep my efforts to a minimum. You should thank Cris for his valuable time and painstaking courtique of your blatant ignorance and signs of stupidity. This said, I sincerely doubt that you understand the favor he offers you. HE is a critical thinker.

Originally posted by Mystee

Still packed with Love,

Mystee

 

[okinrus]

God cannot be seen. No amount of critical thought will allow you to see God. Only by the Spriit revealing himself will you know Jesus. So my advice is to try to find him in prayer. Ask repeatively and do not give up.

 

[=SputniK-CL=]

Can I, can I, ummm *puts down his foam hand and climbs over the side fence*, can I just give my opinion?
Thanks...

Mystee, wesmorris IS a very critical thinker. I can say this from the many posts I have read. He seems to have a nose for truth. In this case the truth is obvious to most of us...and I for one am very frustated with the typical stance of the average believer.

"Again, all the proof you will ever need has been given to you. The fact that you have explained it away and no one has posed a good enough argument to convince will not stand when you face your creator."

To show that you are not such a critical thinker, this here is an example how you 'proved' that you are right by saying that you are right... This is the truth of the matter.

This is not sufficient for the scientific mind. And the objective mind is our ONLY hope for the truth because nothing is beyond doubt!!!

The arrogance, to think you know with absolute certainty (for that is what faith implies) the purpose of life, the universe and everything else is tragic downfall of all that is divine. Against this I argue, all the rest is pure welcome debate...

 

[Mystee]

Originally posted by okinrus
Go F*** yourself redoubtable.

Okinerus,

Don't return an insult for an insult. It will only make them doubt the validity of everything else you have been saying.


It all comes back to Love,

Mystee

 

[Cris]

Mystee,

Again, all the proof you will ever need has been given to you.

Then we should discuss the criteria for proof. If the proof was clear then why is there 10,000 distinct religions in the world all having quite different ideas about ‘truth’? And why is there some 33,000 different denominations within Christianity? It is said that there are 2 billion Christians in the world, and note that that is only a third of the world, i.e. is not a majority. Of these 2 billion only a fraction attends church and/or is positively active. Most say they are Christian because that is their tradition and cultural heritage, and their visits to church comprise weddings and funerals.

So while not having a majority vote doesn’t mean the claims are untrue it does indicate that your claim of proof is not particularly visible or strong. If we then take those who look at the issues with some skepticism and objectivity then what we find is no proof whatsoever.

Science means knowledge or “to know”. It has established some very formal and proven reliable methods for establishing knowledge, i.e. truths. A god has yet to be found by such methods. What you would need to do is show that you have a superior method than science for showing that what you claim is a proof is valid. Otherwise your claim of proof is as solid as vapor and doesn’t warrant much attention if any.

The fact that you have explained it away and no one has posed a good enough argument to convince will not stand when you face your creator.

Why not? If God is just and fair then wouldn’t he consider the circumstances why someone would choose not to believe? Please don’t think that because some do not believe that they do not want to believe. Many of us do genuinely, objectively and sincerely search for truth.

Wow! 2000 and 3 years later and we're still telling his story.

Yes is does show how so many people can be so easily misled. For even longer than 2003 years most people on the planet believed the world was flat. It is amazing how ignorance will allow a myth to perpetuate for so long.

There have been many men who have claimed to be something special, but they were quickly forgotten after their death. Why do you think this one stuck?

Primarily because it was implemented as an instrument of political power used to control an ignorant mass, in that sense it has been extraordinarily effective. It is only in recent decades that secularism, science, and democracy, have arisen and which are encouraging freedom from authoritarianism. People are now beginning to think for themselves with religion taking a backseat and which is consequently becoming increasingly irrelevant.

I have been told over and over that my best friend is a fantasy and he never was real. So have almost all Christians. So why do we still believe?

Quite possibly it is emotionalism, gullibility, inability to think critically, self-delusion, etc.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by okinrus
God cannot be seen.

He can only be seen by cult members.

Originally posted by okinrus

No amount of critical thought will allow you to see God.

Yes, only cult brainwashing can to that.

Originally posted by okinrus

Only by the Spriit revealing himself will you know Jesus.

Sorry to break it to you: Jesus is dead. Get over it.

Originally posted by okinrus

So my advice is to try to find him in prayer.

My advice is that you suck my ****. On second thought, nevermind. Do you think people need advice like that? I suppose you, as a cult member... have to.

Originally posted by okinrus

Ask repeatively and do not give up.

Yes, because this knowledge can only be reached once you LOSE YOUR ABILITY TO DISCERN BETWEEN REALITY AND YOUR BULLSHIT FANTASIES. Pardon, just wanted to make sure you read that part.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Mystee
Okinerus,

Don't return an insult for an insult.

Warning: Incoming generalization:

Hehe, you christians kill me. Hehe. Why should he listen to you? Don't you think he knows that dead dude on his own? You are your brother's keeper? Shit I don't know. Hehe.. cracks me up seeing you ignorant bastards telling each other what to do cuz you think it's what some dead dude would want. That's hallarious.

Originally posted by Mystee

It will only make them doubt the validity of everything else you have been saying.

Sorry babe.. a bit late for that comment. You're doubted as soon as you show your ignorance regardless of the amount of insults you throw. Hell at least the insults are entertaining. I think redoubtable might enjoy fucking himself. Hell I know i do. :bugeye: LOL

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Redoubtable
Wesmorris,

Though brusqueness is often hastily stigmatized as rudeness, it can sometimes be helpful. Don't vaccilate so much when you're trying to silence her. Just tell her she's a naive, over-zealous bitch. Tell her that this forums is no place for a stereotypical, Christian ingenue and she should go find a boyfriend to fuck her hard in the ass.

Sciforums is here to discuss themes not to attack other members for no apparent reason. Next time try and conjure up a decent question or answer one, otherwise piss off.

Dave

 

[Cris]

Moderator Note.

Please please everyone leave out the unnecessary profanities, they do not add anything of any real value. And please try to show respect for other members even if you do not respect their views.

Attack the argument as strongly as you wish, but not the person.

 

[okinrus]

Sorry babe.. a bit late for that comment. You're doubted as soon as you show your ignorance regardless of the amount of insults you throw. Hell at least the insults are entertaining. I think redoubtable might enjoy fucking himself. Hell I know i do.

I'm just suprised that a self-professsed atheist like redoubtable would only search for God in his porno mags. Nevertheless I didn't mean to insult him. I just told him to go back to his putrid existance.

Now back to Wesmorris. No God cannot be seen in unless he shows himself to you. So at least try to be worthy of the promises of Christ.

Do you think people need advice like that? I suppose you, as a cult member... have to.

Obviously you do. You are not even listening or asking for God to show himself.

Yes, because this knowledge can only be reached once you LOSE YOUR ABILITY TO DISCERN BETWEEN REALITY AND YOUR BULLSHIT FANTASIES. Pardon, just wanted to make sure you read that part.

The demons do not even cuss when they are angry. Their anger is beyond mere words. If you are so prideful that you cannot call out to God to show himself for 1 minute or so each day, then why do you think he will show himself?

 

[Mystee]

Originally posted by =SputniK-CL=
"Again, all the proof you will ever need has been given to you. The fact that you have explained it away and no one has posed a good enough argument to convince will not stand when you face your creator."

To show that you are not such a critical thinker, this here is an example how you 'proved' that you are right by saying that you are right... This is the truth of the matter.

This is not sufficient for the scientific mind. And the objective mind is our ONLY hope for the truth because nothing is beyond doubt!!!

Ok if you are only talking about how to pose a good argument on some online forum to keep the discusion going you would be totally correct. But I am not discusing how to please people on some forum. I am talking about real life. In real life, as you said, nothing is beyond doubt. How then can you always ask for proof? By your own argument it will never be enough. Rather that looking at my posts as the ramblings of "just another Christian" why don't you take a look at what is really there. Not scientific theorys and fossles. Man, I don't know about you guys but that's not enough for me. Real life is not based on how well you debat or how much of a critical thinker you are, though you have all cultivated those skills masterfully. Try to see how that may not be all there is to truth. I know you have made something here that you enjoy, where you can all come to debate endlessly. But what if there is more? I'm sorry if I seem preachy. I'm sorry if you don't all agree with what I am saying. You ask me to see your side, I have been there. That place where science was enough and proof was needed for everything to be true. I know how it is. Have you been where I am? (Aside from Cris) I bet most of you have never even given God a chance. You claim to be so open minded and encourage me to be the same, but have you even glanced at what's on the other side of your arguments. Are you proving points just for the sake of debating? I'm not. A really good debater and critical thinker knows both sides of the argument. Do you? Have you tried out the other side? or have you immediatly writen it off as fantasy? I'm not asking for direct answers. Just ask yourself honestly. I don't even need a respons. (Though I am sure I will get one)

Packed with Love,

Mystee

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by okinrus
No God cannot be seen in unless he shows himself to you.

You mean until your cult conditioning is complete.

Originally posted by okinrus

So at least try to be worthy of the promises of Christ.

Did you miss the part where jesus christ is a mexican selling weed in tuijuana? I don't need the promises of a dead dude. I'm a little more proactive than all that. I can rely on myself. Can you? You're capable but your cult won't let you. Why do you allow them to control you? Are you incapable? Do you need to be controlled?

Originally posted by okinrus

You are not even listening or asking for God to show himself.

Uhm, I'm quite sure if "god" wanted me to notice something, "he'd" be more than able to... aren't you?

Originally posted by okinrus

The demons do not even cuss when they are angry. Their anger is beyond mere words.

You say shit like that and don't even realize you're in a cult. Oh man that's sad. Do you understand how insane that sounds?

Originally posted by okinrus

If you are so prideful that you cannot call out to God to show himself for 1 minute or so each day, then why do you think he will show himself?

Why do I want to call out to something that only exists in your head? I don't know you and certainly don't need to be directly involved with your psychosis.

 

[okinrus]

You mean until your cult conditioning is complete.

Why do you think that you can insult me? Here is the <a href = "http://divinity.library.vanderbilt.edu/burns/chroma/saints/saints.html">cult</a> of saints.

I don't need the promises of a dead dude. I'm a little more proactive than all that. I can rely on myself. Can you?

You will not be so proactive when your in the grave. All I'm saying is behave responsibly. I'm sure your already doing this.

Uhm, I'm quite sure if "god" wanted me to notice something, "he'd" be more than able to... aren't you?

From your responses, God would be convinced that you don't want him to exist.

You say shit like that and don't even realize you're in a cult. Oh man that's sad. Do you understand how insane that sounds?

It's true.

Why do I want to call out to something that only exists in your head? I don't know you and certainly don't need to be directly involved with your psychosis.

If you cannot call out to God or change your behavior at least somewhat, then you are a slave to Satan. If you cannot do this much, then I have won the argument because you are unwilling to search for God. In every account in the bible of God revealing himself, humbleness is required. You are expected to remove your sandals before seeing him. So if you cannot at least call to him daily, then I have proven that you are not in control of yourself. And why is this illogical? We do many things without critical thinking, such as breathing.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by okinrus
From your responses, God would be convinced that you don't want him to exist.

Whom do you consider more pridefull; A man who would speak for himself or a man who speaks for god?

Don't you think the "lord" can speak for "himself"? Do you think "he" would need someone like yourself :bugeye: to speak for him?

 

[okinrus]

Whom do you consider more pridefull; A man who would speak for himself or a man who speaks for god?

The man who speaks for himself. If you speak for the will of God, as long as you don't claim to speak as God, then that's ok. I was using this more as a hypothetical statement and the context should be obvious.

Don't you think the "lord" can speak for "himself"? Do you think "he" would need someone like yourself to speak for him?

Yes but you must listen to him. If you do not want to hear him, then there's no reason why he should speak to you.

 

[=SputniK-CL=]

IVE LOST IT

Mystee,

I respect you...but I give up. You are beyond help!!!

I grew up in an evangelic Christian home, with my mother and father both strong believers. At 14, when my mother died in a car accident, I turned away from God for he did not answer me. The explanation of course, I realise now, is his non-existence. The funny thing is, up to 14 I never actually had faith in God or religion. I honestly and sincerely think most people are blinded by what the are told to think. This is so very sad. The church is full of hypocrites it seems.

I think illusions are very real, and Mystee, I think you should start searching again...

Hey Okinrus

GGG is real, I have a booklet that sais he is real. The booklet also sais that if you do not accept the Giant Green Gnome as the true King, you will perish painfully. I can feel the presence of the almighty GGG. He tells me that he loves me. I feel it to the very core of my bieng. If you do not feel him, it is because u do not want to feel him. O, and the GGG works in mysterious ways*.

*Ways impervious to logic, rational thinking or sense. But this does not make him less real.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by okinrus
The man who speaks for himself.

I disagree. I think one who would claim to speak as if he knew the will of god inherently egomaniacal. I don't think you really understand the scope of your claim.

Originally posted by okinrus

If you speak for the will of God, as long as you don't claim to speak as God, then that's ok.

You should re-read what you said. IMO, to speak as if you understrand god is to speak as if you are god.

Originally posted by okinrus

I was using this more as a hypothetical statement and the context should be obvious.

I disagree. You claim to understand the will of the creator of the universe. I don't think you do in the least (nor do I). You're merely spewing the propaganda your cult would have you believe.

Originally posted by okinrus

Yes but you must listen to him.

My hearing is not impaired.

Originally posted by okinrus

If you do not want to hear him, then there's no reason why he should speak to you.

If the 'almighty' didn't can't summon a voice I can hear, I'd say that uhm... it doesn't care, or it doesn't exist. I suspect the latter, but hey I might be wrong. Can you admit that you might be wrong? I didn't think so.

 

[okinrus]

GGG is real, I have a booklet that sais he is real. The booklet also sais that if you do not accept the Giant Green Gnome as the true King, you will perish painfully. I can feel the presence of the almighty GGG. He tells me that he loves me. I feel it to the very core of my bieng. If you do not feel him, it is because u do not want to feel him. O, and the GGG works in mysterious ways*.

*Ways impervious to logic, rational thinking or sense. But this does not make him less real.

You still cannot explain why you feel that way about GGG but not God. Or to put better why you not feel that God existed, despite there being evidence and writings proving otherwise. You know that air exists but you cannot see it. Your only proof of air's existance is that air interacts with other things that you can prove exist. Another problem is that unless if you physically studied air yourself, you are trusting other scientists. While I trust 2000 years of evidence that says God exists, you trust 200 years of scientific guesses. Using a completely rational process we cannot rule out the existance of your invisible GGG. So yes, it may exist.

You should re-read what you said. IMO, to speak as if you understrand god is to speak as if you are god.

No it's not. "We worship what we understand." So yes, I do understand somethings about God. However this sentance is clearly hypothetical. From this sentance, you then come up with some outragous statement that I speak as God. Clearly I'm not speaking for God in that sentance. Otherwise why would I say "From your posts". Would God need to look at your posts? The sentance is no different than me saying, "From your posts, Bob would be convinced that you do not want him to exist"
So the "I think" here is implied just as scientists say the life started from inorganic matter. And I'm sure that you've said "God does not exist." Do you really know that God does not exist? Of course not. If God created logic than using a logical system to disprove his existance is fallacy. However many times I've heard atheists say "God does not exist".

My hearing is not impaired.

I'm obviously not speaking about that type of hearing.

If the 'almighty' didn't can't summon a voice I can hear, I'd say that uhm... it doesn't care, or it doesn't exist. I suspect the latter, but hey I might be wrong. Can you admit that you might be wrong? I didn't think so.

Well I'm glad that your taking an agnostic position.

 

[=SputniK-CL=]

Okinrus,

"You still cannot explain why you feel that way about GGG but not God. Or to put better why you not feel that God existed, despite there being evidence and writings proving otherwise"

The explanation is that God doesnt exist, but the GGG does because I can feel him, and not God. I kid you not. This line of reasoning I have seen many times. To me, these writings you refer to are not absolute proof of God, very far from it in fact. What has become my trademark point: Faith implies, by the relevant definition, absolute and unquestioning conviction in the supposed truth.

"You know that air exists but you cannot see it. Your only proof of air's existance is that air interacts with other things that you can prove exist. Another problem is that unless if you physically studied air yourself, you are trusting other scientists."

Please, this was rather childish a example, dont you think? Seeing is not the only way of inferring the existence of x, but in this case my point is not relevant, for you can see air - it reflects light, although very little. Gas molecules can be seen via microscope. -, it also can be felt. I understand your point, in spite of your poor example.
Altogether its a moot point. You really wish to compare air with God? God can in no way be naturally measured. Air is a far cry from God. Ill humour you - I trust those scientists not because of blind faith, but because I can see their reasonings, their proofs, their steps of logic.

"While I trust 2000 years of evidence that says God exists, you trust 200 years of scientific guesses."

Over the top. I admire u for holding your line in the 'evidence' department. Most theists I know easily retreat into the 'I just know' zone. However, I do very much resent this statement. The last 200 years more has changed than ever before. Science, I would say, was the biggest thing to hit the world...and the best. While it doesnt claim to know all (as religion does), it does provides a method for finding the best explanation for things observed and percieved. BTW, what guesses are you referring to, exactly? You cannot seriously doubt evolution, so what is it?
To say there is 2000 years of evidence is an outright lie, and u know it!!! The bible has its wisdom, but, since we are on the subject of proof, u cant prove to me its more that a storybook?!?

"Using a completely rational process we cannot rule out the existance of your invisible GGG. So yes, it may exist."

Thank you. And I cannot prove to you absolutely that your God does not exist, of course. But I can, In my opinion, offer you rational explanations why it is most likely that God, religion and the rest is a fallacy.

ALSO, by taking the rational route (thank God) you admit you may be wrong? This is interesting. I am assuming you are a Christian.

 

[okinrus]

However, I do very much resent this statement. The last 200 years more has changed than ever before. Science, I would say, was the biggest thing to hit the world...and the best. While it doesnt claim to know all (as religion does), it does provides a method for finding the best explanation for things observed and percieved. BTW, what guesses are you referring to, exactly? You cannot seriously doubt evolution, so what is it?

No I'm not saying that science and God cannot go together. What I mean is that saying the universe just came to existance is as crazy, if not more so, than saying that evolution has no truth. The only real difference is that those who say the universe just came into existance use fancier math than the creationists.

To say there is 2000 years of evidence is an outright lie, and u know it!!! The bible has its wisdom, but, since we are on the subject of proof, u cant prove to me its more that a storybook?!?

Some of the bible are stories such as Tobit, Job, Noah and the Tower of Babel. The point is not so much that they occurred as written exactly in the bible but that they contain religious truth. It's not going to affect me one bit if Noah only took a few animals and the flood was entirely local. Jesus knew that no one would accept him based on factual evidence alone. Yes, the evidence will make us to look and listen for God, but only by the spirit of Truth can we know that Jesus is our Lord.

To say there is 2000 years of evidence is an outright lie, and u know it!!! The bible has its wisdom, but, since we are on the subject of proof, u cant prove to me its more that a storybook?!?

I can probably come up with 100s of miracles each generation. Each believer in itself is a witness.

Please, this was rather childish a example, dont you think? Seeing is not the only way of inferring the existence of x, but in this case my point is not relevant, for you can see air - it reflects light, although very little. Gas molecules can be seen via microscope. -, it also can be felt. I understand your point, in spite of your poor example.

Unless if you can say otherwise, the only properties of air that you know of is its interaction with other matter. You know that something reflects light. It looks like it as shape. The brain automatically fills in some of perspective of the object in a very complicated process and then you see it. However it remains that you only saw something interact with light. You cannot prove that the other matter exist or that air exists. You could in fact define air simply by its interactions but you cannot prove that anything exist which are causing those interactions.

ALSO, by taking the rational route (thank God) you admit you may be wrong? This is interesting. I am assuming you are a Christian.

No, just that we cannot use our rational thinking alone to find God.