Does free will exist?

[Arioch]

@Gustav --

Of course I've read the bible, but I don't accept it as fact due to the numerous internal inconsistencies and various logical fallacies(such as circular reasoning). How does this have anything to do with free will? The bible never explicitly mentions free will, though it does mention a plan of god's that takes precedence over what we mere mortals desire.....

 

[Sarkus]

I tend to go along with Thomas Hobbes in postulating the free will is a freedom from some, but not all, physical constraints in regards to our decision making. So while we may not be able to spontaneously decide to fly without mechanical assistance, we are absolutely free to choose from our available decisions.

But I would argue that those very choices are still driven (and concluded on) by unconscious activity... through value judgements that are themselves based on other unconscious activity / memory etc.

I think the overall question does depend upon one's idea of free-will.

My own preferred definition is "a pattern of activity that gives the appearance of self-determination" - which deliberately speaks nothing of the drivers behind the pattern of activity.
I would also refer to this, though, as "the illusion of free-will".

If one is discussing only this external appearance of self-determination, then yes, this free-will exists and should be self-evident, imho.
If one holds that free-will requires that the "pattern of activity" also be free from influence etc, then I see no evidence to support that, but as you say, it may not ever be possible to conclude one way or another on it.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

There is no evidence that he chose to open the thread.

Okay. I'm choosing to respond to you, and I assume it's because
I have a free will to make some decisions with.

If you assume free will then you can assume it was a choice.
If you assume not then it wasn't a choice but a foregone conclusion that he would do so.

And so far it hasn't been proven either way.

I don't see any ''either way'' about it.
Why would you think that I may NOT have made the choice?


jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Arioch,

But did I choose or do I merely think that I chose? Do I have free will or merely the illusion of free will?

You chose.

This is a legitimate question because, like most questions, experience alone can not answer it.

It may be legitimate in this scenario, but in reality, it's pointless.

If I am merely under the illusion of free will there would be absolutely no way for me to determine this merely by experience.

Which is why it is a pointless speculation.

However this doesn't mean that we're entirely blind on the subject. Neurology, for example, has found that our actions with regard to movement are not subject to conscious decision the way that our experience would indicate they are

How does this relate to us imagining we have free will?

The bits of the brain responsible for movement light up under an fMRI a split second before the "decision" to move is registered by the brain. Also, under close and careful scrutiny the sense of self, the "I" in "I think" and "I feel", has an alarming tendency to disappear. This is something that various yogis and spiritualists have been describing for centuries and we've now confirmed that their experiences are due to a shut down of the "ego center" of the brain.

Can you elaborate?

I don't know if this is an argument against the existence of free will or not, but it's sure not evidence for it.

The best evidence for free will is our sober, conscious experience.

Who say's we're free from the phyical laws?
We can manipulate the physical laws to certain degrees.

But wouldn't free will necessitate that our brain processes, our ability to think and choose, be free from the physical law of cause and effect? Else it wouldn't be free at all and would be deterministic by nature.

I think our conscousness interacts with our body, willing it to perform (consciously) within limits. So everything is deterministic execpt clear consciousness.

Actually the definition of reality is irrelevant to my question as my question is essential for accurately defining reality in the first place.

So you should accept free will exists, as that is currently the best explanation.

If free will exists(premise), then does it necessitate a non-physical component to reality(question)?

I think consciousness is that non-physical component.
What do you think?

jan.

 

[wynn]

haven't we discussed it to death yet??

No.

 

[wynn]

Decisions made by the will would have to depend on something, for choice; otherwise nothing would be chosen and nothing would ever happen, not even just continuing instead of not or doing something else.

The will collapses scenarios of consequences the best it can from what one has become. A soul would not help, but just be a further dependency, unless it is a seen as a mini-first cause, and then it would be worthless, as it has no input to give. Besides, there is no basis for a soul. What about random? Maybe good for a tie, but senseless and worthless the rest of the time, plus what would be behind the random to regulate it?

Only an entity (such as a soul) can have a will.
Will cannot float around loosely in space.

 

[wynn]

If there IS freewill then we do have a choice.
So what is it about his choice that begs the question of freewill?

The fact that we are often unhappy.


Nobody would freely choose to be unhappy.
So why are we unhappy?

 

[Jan Ardena]

The fact that we are often unhappy.


Nobody would freely choose to be unhappy.
So why are we unhappy?

Because of the choices we and everybody
make, and have made.

jan.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Will cannot float around loosely in space.

yeah..he needs a space suit..

 

[Crunchy Cat]

@Crunchy Cat --
I tend to go along with Thomas Hobbes in postulating the free will is a freedom from some, but not all, physical constraints in regards to our decision making.

So while we may not be able to spontaneously decide to fly without mechanical assistance, we are absolutely free to choose from our available decisions.

Ok, so free will pertains exclusively to decision making. Which physical costraints is human decision making free of?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Okay. I'm choosing to respond to you, and I assume it's because I have a free will to make some decisions with.

OR, as stated, you don't have free will, there was no alternative to replying and you're simply under the illusion you made a choice.

I don't see any ''either way'' about it.
Why would you think that I may NOT have made the choice?

Have you been following ANY of the free will discussions? AT all?
How do you know you made a choice?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

OR, as stated, you don't have free will, there was no alternative to replying and you're simply under the illusion you made a choice.

No. I do have a free will, and I used it to respond to you.
What reasons do you have for thinking any other way?

Have you been following ANY of the free will discussions? AT all?

Can you answer the question?

How do you know you made a choice?

Because I remember making the choice.

What makes you give this idea equal status to what is
commonly regarded as free will?


jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

No. I do have a free will, and I used it to respond to you.

That is what you believe.

What reasons do you have for thinking any other way?

Because we have no evidence that free will exists.

Can you answer the question?

It's quite simple (again).
1) We have no evidence for free will
2) Given the claims of god's attributes (omniscience being one) then free will cannot exist.

Because I remember making the choice.

No you don't. You (possibly) remember having the illusion of making the choice.

What makes you give this idea equal status to what is commonly regarded as free will?

Commonly regarded? By whom?
Sources please.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Since this is a concept that is quite thoroughly ingrained into most of the theisms, I thought this to be a fair question to ask.

So, does free will exist? If so then how does it function, what is it about us that frees us from the physical laws that everything else in nature follows? Would the existence of free will necessitate a non-physical component to reality? And any other questions regarding free will anyone cares to bring up.

Personally I see no evidence for the existence of free will. Oh sure, we can "feel" and "experience" the act of making a decision, but the question of how accurate those sensations are still remains and much of the new evidence we're uncovering from our study of the human brain suggests that any conscious control we might have over our thoughts and actions is minimal at best.

So what do you think?

Why do you expect people to freely give a rationally conscious answer?

You failed to see the contradiction in asking the question in the first place.. Its not a difficult one to see.

Its like asking if there really is such a thing as reality, and then hoping somebody exists in-order to give you an answer. And that's assuming that you existed to freely ask the question in the first place.

 

[Dywyddyr]

You failed to see the contradiction in asking the question in the first place.. Its not a difficult one to see.

Please, explain this "contradiction" to us.
But make sure you read the thread first.

 

[Gustav]

who is "us", dy?

 

[wynn]

Because of the choices we and everybody
make, and have made.

Nobody would freely choose to be unhappy.

So why are we unhappy?


Either:
1. We don't have free will, so things just happen to us, for better or worse.
2. Happiness is not the result of our actions.
3. We are inherently corrupt, evil, and unhappy.
4. Something else is the reason for our misery.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I'm not asking about the theological implications of free will or whether it's incompatible with this or that religious dogma. I want to discuss free will itself, free from all of the baggage that you typically find on the subject. I want to start with free will only and see where it goes. I'm pretty sure that's not exactly the way that free will threads typically go around here.

we did that a month ago all ready . There were some real leaders in the pack . Arf was a big contributor . In fact we beat that sucker with bazookas . The conclusion for Me was Free wilk is an illusion . Course I known it from the age of 3 when Me daddy ran me down and beat My ass. Then again it could all just be my mind set I will not give up . My core beliefs and I have created my own little world of what I think reality is . If so it is pretty fucking elaborate and the complexity of it all would definitely make Me some kind of wiz kid . I don't think so cause I am some what low average in me thought process. So that right there tells me it is out of my control and it is pre scripted . How do you make opportunity for your self ? See that is the big mystery . To achieve and have value in society ! Is that the goal of the individual . Yet acclaim from contribution is of a select few. Who makes these decisions ? Does the individual who is elevated ? Do they make that decision ? Well you could say it is from personal decisions and the contribution were so great they could not be ignored . I got news for you ! For every one of fame and glory there are hundreds that have achieved more that you will never know about . Think of sperm working its way to the egg. That little bugger that gets there first . Is the out come determined already by circumstance and condition of the winning sperm . O.K. how often does the underdog rise up and become the winner. Now we all love that shit right . To see the underdog win . It gives a feeling of free will when they do . Consider the work that underdog did that you have no clue about cause it was that underdog out of your sight busting there but to be the best . It is not some fluke thing . It is not a random event . Paying the Fidler so to speak . Paying dues . Yet most are cast to the side . Lonely old people in rest homes. That is a tragedy. Does it make you really want to be a Human when you see the end result? Now you can consider the working person destined to get up go to work and doing some one's will , come home , Make dinner , go to sleep , wake up , go do some one's will , come home make dinner . You getting the picture . Routine comes to my mind . Like a train track . So you brush your teeth left to right instead of right to left one day . Is that a act of free will in the grand scheme of things . Negligible. How perfect does a circle have to be before it meets the needs of the design . I am talking about Tolerances

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

But I would argue that those very choices are still driven (and concluded on) by unconscious activity... through value judgements that are themselves based on other unconscious activity / memory etc.

I think the overall question does depend upon one's idea of free-will.

My own preferred definition is "a pattern of activity that gives the appearance of self-determination" - which deliberately speaks nothing of the drivers behind the pattern of activity.
I would also refer to this, though, as "the illusion of free-will".

If one is discussing only this external appearance of self-determination, then yes, this free-will exists and should be self-evident, imho.
If one holds that free-will requires that the "pattern of activity" also be free from influence etc, then I see no evidence to support that, but as you say, it may not ever be possible to conclude one way or another on it.

I think we can conclude . Great minds are working it out . I got 7 painting that to me reflect the math . A person that understands probabilities might be at the threshold too . Applied Probabilities to daily function . That would be one big task to under take . I believe out side orchestration exist at a basic function of human existence and by red car phenomena there is a second information stream that is in a coherent language that is not obvious to standard human perception . It is at a subconscious level and we access it while sleeping . We take in vision sound and touch information in the day and process it at night while we sleep . How many times have you woke up and said to your self " Fuck thats it , I got to go fix it .

Edit: This S/guy right here is a big big contributor to the question . S/He friggin thinks about it big time . Cuts it all up and dissects it like it was a toad and S/he was in Biology class

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Please, explain this "contradiction" to us.
But make sure you read the thread first.

The thread starter asked, "Does free will exists?" so I said, "Why do you expect people to freely give a rationally conscious answer?" I added, "Its like asking if there really is such a thing as reality, and then hoping somebody exists in-order to give you an answer. And that's assuming that you existed to freely ask the question in the first place."

Free will is self evident, just like the fact that you exist. You are simply not honest enough to admit it to yourself.