Do you like how Dawkins, Hitchens et al. represent atheists?

[Oli]

So does anyone one with an iota of historical knowledge.

Not really.

Perhaps you could tell us how many of the Commandants at both the Gulags and the Concentration camps were practicing Christians at the time?

Then do us all a favour by comparing the percentage to the number of Conscientious Objectors?

Conscientious objectors?
And that's apropos of what?

Could you then compare the percentages?

What percentages?
Religious guards versus conscientious objectors where?
In the Soviet Union? In the camps? As guards?

Now my bet is that the religious Pacifists far out weighed the religious proclivities of the Prison Guards...what say you?

Your bet?
You mean you don't know so you're making specious comparisons?
(BTW not all pacifists are religious - it's false to assume or imply so).

 

[Atom]

Just answer the question. Oli, Old Chap.

Theres really no need to repeat everything in the previous post. People might think you were deliberately avoiding something.

 

[iceaura]

So animals who instinctually defend their young are an example of human morality, but those who kill for fun are not a role model for violence?

What are you talking about? Role model? Animals exhibit altruism, and other apparently moral behaviors.

Game theory requires the recognition of choice and the understanding of consequences. Has it been tested in animals?

Game theory requires no such things.

I did not realise Muslims were classified as a wealthy fundie society

? Does abortion proceed placidly, without religiously centered repercussion, among the poor in fundie Islamic societies?

Islamic clergy are an occupation not an authority, Islamic scholars determine what points of view are available and the reasoning behind their views; it is a flexible system with no standard laws except those set by a government. ie everyone is entitled to an opinion of their own as long as they can show a reasoning behind it that indicates it is moral and ethical and as long as it is not illegal according to the laws set by the ruler/government.

That sounds to me like evidence of religion curbing independent thought - quite severely. The Soviets under Stalin operated similarly, with a board of allegedly Leninist theoreticians instead of Islamic "scholars", and that is easily recognised as curbing independent thought, no?

 

[Oli]

Just answer the question. Oli, Old Chap.

There wasn't a question as such.
There was a non-specific speculation.
Conscientious objectors where?

Theres really no need to repeat everything in the previous post. People might think you were deliberately avoiding something.

People, or you?
Be specific at all times.

 

[Atom]

<< (BTW not all pacifists are religious - it's false to assume or imply so). >>

Dearie me.

Did I suggest they were, Oli? << sigh >>

Its like talking to a Primary School kids.

 

[Atom]

<< Conscientious objectors where? >>

Behind the sofa, pal.

Try googling WWI and WW2...as for the Gulags they were most likely inside so I can see your difficulty.

 

[Oli]

<< Conscientious objectors where? >>

Behind the sofa, pal.

Try googling WWI and WW2...as for the Gulags they were most likely inside so I can see your difficulty.

Stalin's gulags were filled mostly with kulaks and political enemies, not conscientious objectors.
Why google?
I read history books, no difficulty.

 

[GeoffP]

That explains those baby killing dolphins and murderous chimpanzees.

Oh wait, doesn't immorality have a genetic basis?

Given that chimps at least do that, it does, in a way; but that doesn't mean the other side of the allelic spectrum consists of allelic variants for "niceness". Basically the system is one of "retaliators" and "nonretaliators" and all their funny little variants in all directions.

See previous

Sam, not believing in some ulterior punishment doesn't make morality. Morality is engendered of daily choice and the desire to do right, and rise above one's selfish genetic construction. I know lots of atheists (including various of my family) who are decent, law-abiding, and stringently ethical.

Yeah, its nice to pick and choose whatever endorses your opinions.

It is! It's kinda like the existence of free will sufficient to make one's own mind up on diverse issues.

You know...sorta like atheism. Allows one to be moral in a manner specific to the issue at hand, without buying into a whole package deal that might have unpalatable elements.

Sorta like Dawkin's God?

Dawkins has a god? News to me. I thought he was more one of these "small naturalistic processes" guys.

 

[Xev]

Just answer the question. Oli, Old Chap.

Theres really no need to repeat everything in the previous post. People might think you were deliberately avoiding something.

 

[GeoffP]

So animals who instinctually defend their young are an example of human morality, but those who kill for fun are not a role model for violence?

No - animals that defend their young are an example of kin selection, not altruism. They're defending their own fitness, and I imagine you notice that there's a "breakpoint" of investment for many animals (i.e. lions). Altruism is when you do something for someone that gives you nothing in return. That, I think, you won't find in nature.

 

[Atom]

Good there hope for you. Do you crayon in the little pictures too.

Yes many of whom were jews, Oli and many of the 'enemies' also happened to be religious.

Now you may care to consider that what effects the Leader infects the rest...he spreads the meme virus and before long they're belief systems have a deity looking at them due to the considerable skills of a Leni Refienstahl or in Stalins case his 'deification' was so complete you could barely escape the smiley happy face of Uncle Joe staring down at you.

They WERE the Deitys...there aint enough room for two.

 

[Atom]

You've had the lobotomy done as well huh..I'd keep quiet about it if I were you.

 

[Atom]

Oli, Zev and Stryder...the Three Effin Stooges.

 

[Oli]

Good there hope for you. Do you crayon in the little pictures too.

Cheap shot, but I've come to expect that from you.

Yes many of whom were jews, Oli and many of the 'enemies' also happened to be religious.

Percentage-wise not that many.

Now you may care to consider that what effects the Leader infects the rest...he spreads the meme virus and before long they're belief systems have a deity looking at them due to the considerable skills of a Leni Refienstahl or in Stalins case his 'deification' was so complete you could barely escape the smiley happy face of Uncle Joe staring down at you.

Or his paranoia and the desire not to be next on the list.
Deification?
He was only "worshipped" when the NKVD were around.

 

[Atom]

<< Dawkins has a god? >>

No, he bought a dog instead..he's dyslexic as well as bigoted.

 

[S.A.M.]

What are you talking about? Role model? Animals exhibit altruism, and other apparently moral behaviors.

Moral by what definition? Recognition of right and wrong? Instinct or intelligence?
Can one change this behaviour by punishing altruism? Do they understand the difference?

? Does abortion proceed placidly, without religiously centered repercussion, among the poor in fundie Islamic societies?

Sure, there are rules for abortion everywhere, the only thing that determines the legality of the abortion is government.

That sounds to me like evidence of religion curbing independent thought - quite severely. The Soviets under Stalin operated similarly, with a board of allegedly Leninist theoreticians instead of Islamic "scholars", and that is easily recognised as curbing independent thought, no?

Seems to me you are being deliberately obtuse, in India we have a common penal code, but the civic code is determined by religion. Does that indicate that punishment of a penal offence is undermining heretics?

It is similar in most Muslim countries: a common penal code with independent civic codes. There are differences however based on government: Turkey bans the hijab in school, Saddam banned what he called anti-government dissent but had no problems with hijab or women working, Iran makes hijab compulsory but punishes homosexuals. In all three cases the countries are Muslim, following the same Fiqh but using their own interpretations of what is suitable.

 

[Atom]

<< Deification?
He was only "worshipped" when the NKVD were around. >>

Hysterical...even when dead he was deified. But keep playing the apologist, Oli..it must be a trait of atheists to simply follow orders.

 

[GeoffP]

It is similar in most Muslim countries: a common penal code with independent civic codes. There are differences however based on government: Turkey bans the hijab in school, Saddam banned what he called anti-government dissent but had no problems with hijab or women working, Iran makes hijab compulsory but punishes homosexuals. In all three cases the countries are Muslim, following the same Fiqh but using their own interpretations of what is suitable.

None of which, of course, is.

 

[Oli]

<< Deification?
He was only "worshipped" when the NKVD were around. >>

Hysterical...even when dead he was deified. But keep playing the apologist, Oli..it must be a trait of atheists to simply follow orders.

And a trait of theist woowoos to make assumptions?
Know many Russians?
Been there (post Stalin)?
I never met one that could stand the guy (except, of course, when the NKVD/KGB/ GRU were around)

 

[Xev]

Good there's hope for you. Do you crayon in the little pictures too?.

Yes many of whom were jews, Oli and many of the 'enemies' also happened to be religious. Sentence fragment

Now you may care to consider that what effects affects the Leader infects the rest...he spreads the meme virus and before long they're their belief systems have a deity looking at them due to the considerable skills of a Leni Refienstahl or in Stalins Stalin'scase his 'deification' was so complete that you could barely escape the smiley happy face of Uncle Joe staring down at you.

They WERE the Deitysdeities..there aintain't enough room for two.

Fixed.