Do atheists believe in free will?

.... But you still have a choise. ..

Computers make choices based on inputs. Do they have 'free' will too?

People appear to have free will, that doesn't mean they do, and citing the ability to make choices isn't a good example.

Start with your definition of free will, and we will work from there.
 
Computers make choices based on inputs. Do they have 'free' will too?

People appear to have free will, that doesn't mean they do, and citing the ability to make choices isn't a good example.

Start with your definition of free will, and we will work from there.

Give us a break will ya !

No one is saying we have 100% free will.

A) An muslims wife in pakistan gets raped, what he does ?

Punish her for it.


B) An Atheists wife get raped, what does he think ?

Definitely not of punishing her.

------------------- ------------------- -------------------

So Why this difference ?

Who is practicing more free will ?
 
Computers make choices based on inputs. Do they have 'free' will too?

People appear to have free will, that doesn't mean they do, and citing the ability to make choices isn't a good example.

Start with your definition of free will, and we will work from there.

dude i just said my defenition on free will is ability to choise.
a computer has an option a human has a choise big differnce
 
Allow me to take another stab at interpreting Dennett's view. His book tries to discover if the concept of free will makes sense in a deterministic world.

Think about rolling a pair of dice. The result is not, in an absolute sense, random. There are a multitude of factors that influence the outcome -- the exact position of the dice in your hand, the exact angle of your hand when you release them, the exact height you release them from, the air currents, gravitational effects, the hardness of the surface they hit, and on and on. But those determining factors are far beyond human ability to compute. So to us the results are random in a meaningful sense -- in the sense that there is no way to predict the outcome.

I think Dennett is saying that free will is a similar case. To us it is meaningful, because even IF all our actions and choices are strictly determined, that happens at a level that is inaccessible to us.

If that strikes you as unsatisfactory, consider this: if you believe that all your choices are determined and there is truly no free will, does that really help you when you have a tough choice to make? Does it relieve your stress and worry when you have a really agonizing decision to wrestle with? It seems to me that if you DO feel that a decision is hard to make, then there IS free will in a sense that is meaningful to you.
 
"Free will" is a legal term :) used so that a criminal identified as sane can be tried as a premeditative felon.

Outside of this, free will is simply the ability to intelligently come to and follow through with a choice based on a number of factors not the least of which is experience, but not limited to same.

Vital (et al) is just romanticizing the concept of free will to lend credibility to a theistic belief. I might just turn the question around and as who granted him free will? Yahweh or Allah? Maybe it was Lord Krishna? How about Thor? Maybe Zeus? Apollo? And why would this be free will as opposed to a controlled will?
 
"Free will" is a legal term :) used so that a criminal identified as sane can be tried as a premeditative felon.

Outside of this, free will is simply the ability to intelligently come to and follow through with a choice based on a number of factors not the least of which is experience, but not limited to same.

Vital (et al) is just romanticizing the concept of free will to lend credibility to a theistic belief. I might just turn the question around and as who granted him free will? Yahweh or Allah? Maybe it was Lord Krishna? How about Thor? Maybe Zeus? Apollo? And why would this be free will as opposed to a controlled will?

Why do atheists enjoy diverting from the topic and bringing up Thor and Zeus and things like this?

If you believe in free-will then most likely there is something outside of matter itself that gives us this free will, this awareness of experience, this control....otherwise if you believe there is nothing besides the brain there is no free will, no purpose in life, humans are nothing more than biological machines that believe they have free will and emotions, etc.....but in reality free will, emotion, experience, etc...are just chemical reactions and nothing more
 
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....otherwise if you believe there is nothing besides the brain there is no free will, no purpose in life, humans are nothing more than biological machines that believe they have free will and emotions, etc.....


The fact that we are biological machines does not necessarily preclude the existence of free will. It is possible that some quantum mechanical effect at the atomic level provides a level of randomness in what goes on in our brains; and if there is some randomness, then our choices are not strictly 100% determined, and so there would be free will in at least some degree. I'm not saying I believe this; Dennett actually argues against it, but I think it's an open question.

I don't know why you bring emotions into it though. If you feel an emotion, then you have that emotion, by definition. And purpose, also, is an emotion.
 
The fact that we are biological machines does not necessarily preclude the existence of free will. It is possible that some quantum mechanical effect at the atomic level provides a level of randomness in what goes on in our brains; and if there is some randomness, then our choices are not strictly 100% determined, and so there would be free will in at least some degree. I'm not saying I believe this; Dennett actually argues against it, but I think it's an open question.

I don't know why you bring emotions into it though. If you feel an emotion, then you have that emotion, by definition. And purpose, also, is an emotion.
How does this contradict anything I stated? I never said our choices were strictly determined, all I said is that they were spontaneous, agreeing with you. So basically you agree that there is no free-will just random spontaneous effects in our brains.....
 
...otherwise ...there is nothing besides the brain there is no free will, no purpose in life, humans are nothing more than biological machines that believe they have free will and emotions, etc.....but in reality free will, emotion, experience, etc...are just chemical reactions and nothing more
Does this idea frighten you?
 
Does this idea frighten you?
No, it doesn't frighten me, it just doesn't make any type of sense to me personally. If you say that chemical reactions cause consicousness then you are saying that chemical reactions are consciousness, these chemical reactions are really not that much different from any other chemical reaction...also we have free will, I can make choices and control emotions, etc....this notion just doesn't make any type of sense to even the slightest extent....
 
ah but they cant realy blame the devil IF god was all knowing and still created the devil , its ALL gods fault!!;)
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/vindicate.html

with god free will is an ILUSION
without god we have free will
No, with God we have free will, without God there is no free will. Or with or without God there is no free will.

People say God and free-will cannot co-exist since God is all-knowing, but this is simply false, since God is within you, and God is the absolute unchanging truth itself, no matter what decisions you make, God is still all-knowing and you still have free will....
 
How does this contradict anything I stated? I never said our choices were strictly determined, all I said is that they were spontaneous, agreeing with you. So basically you agree that there is no free-will just random spontaneous effects in our brains.....


You seem to be saying that if our choices are determined, then there's no free will; and also if our choices are not determined, there's no free will. Come on, give free will a chance! :)

I think if there's some kind of spontaneity involved, then that at least opens up some wiggle room for free will to exist.

Also, I didn't agree to anything; I said it was a possibility, that's all.
 
You seem to be saying that if our choices are determined, then there's no free will; and also if our choices are not determined, there's no free will. Come on, give free will a chance! :)

I think if there's some kind of spontaneity involved, then that at least opens up some wiggle room for free will to exist.

Also, I didn't agree to anything; I said it was a possibility, that's all.

Actually, in the first post I stated that the atheistic notion is that all of our choices must be the result of spontaneous chemical reactions, implying no free-will, just spontaneous unpredictable chemical reactions (unpredictable will). No free-will has absolutely nothing to do with determined or non-determined.

Free-will means the ability to make your own choices and change things. Spontaneity has nothing to do with it...
 
Determinism is an illusion, as much as free will is. Cause and effect is mental shorthand for various degrees of probability - at the quantum level, the fundamental level of physics, there is no such thing. We see determinism as we see blocks of wood - the fact that a block of wood is mostly empty space and is not made of "wood" anyway is something we have to learn.

Determinsim does not have a priviliged place among mental events, as if it were somehow more "real" than free will.

We can easily observe freedom of will, by contrasting it with constrained will: an addict's will, for example, is less free - measurably less free, observably less free.

The mind uses the brain as a substrate, the various aspects of it using chemical combinations and such much as a word might use pixels on a screen to exist, or a whirlpool borrow some water molecules for a few seconds.

vitalone said:
Actually, in the first post I stated that the atheistic notion is that all of our choices must be the result of spontaneous chemical reactions, implying no free-will, just spontaneous unpredictable chemical reactions
Another way to look at it is that the patterns of chemical reactions in the brain are partly the consequences of free will.

The patterns that make up the mind are patterns, not molecules. These patterns cause each other. They are chaotically stable - not random, not determined.

That's how you normally look at such things. When you see a baseball fly through the air, you don't explain its behavior as the consequence of spontaneous motions of its molecules, eh?
 
Can we start with a definition of 'free will' first please? Can someone who believes in it, define it, and can someone who also believes, second the definition? Can you also point out an example of where free will can be clearly distinguished from a complex reaction to stimuli? Can you suggest how 'free will' is free from external influence?

I would say that 'free will' does not exist, because people have bad moods. If the will was 'free' people would never choose to be angry. Anger is a reaction, not a chosen frame of mind.

I would also say 'free will' does not exist because while being a complex machine, we still are a machine, with inputs, and outputs, and the output (our speech, manner, and personality) depends a lot on our inputs (envirnonment and experiences).

So, please, that definition. Please back up any claim that 'choice' expresses free will, or I might ask you if a die 'chooses' which face to land on, ....
I think this is one of the reasons people do deep meditation. At such time, there is for them, no time. Their mind is empty. Zen.

Maybe then there is free-will?
 
I think that in order to analyze this to the fullest, I want to separate a few things that I consider to be different yet connected (maybe confusing now, but hopefully by the end it won't). All of them are different interpretations of free will (or lack thereof) that I can think of.

Determined Destiny: This is when, no matter what happens, something will always have the same end result: ex. 1+3=4 2+2=4. Although I use different numbers in either equation, you still get 4 in the end. I think that this is the kind of thing where, you are told that you are going to die, so you become more aware than you would have if you weren't told that you were going to die. Because of that, you notice the hole in the ground, but then as soon as you step around it you get struck by lightning and die. Whether or not you see the hole, you're going to die anyway.

Only One Real Path: This is pretty much the ultimate of non-free will. There is only one way that anything can ever be done and nothing can ever be changed. You are asked a question a million times and you always answer 'no'. This is because something has a plan for you and you always will do the same thing, no matter how many times you can re-do it.

Only One Path, But You Are Paving It: Everything can ultimately be boiled down to a 'yes' or 'no' answer, 1 or 0, black or white. Either the path goes left or right, regardless, it is up to you in a 'spur of the moment' decision on which direction you will go, which will, ultimately, lead you to wherever you will end up in the end. I suppose this is the option that people who believe in free will will choose.


Ultimately, however, none of this philosophical discussion will ever matter, because theres no way that you can ever prove or disprove either of the assertions because there is only one way that reality goes in, whichever one it is, which is the only thing consistent with both arguments. But then, essentially, both the arguments are the same because that is the substance behind either one; that time only goes in one direction, no matter which direction it is.

Because of that, the decision is essentially up to whoever you're talking to and what is more comfortable to them. I, personally, choose to believe that I have a choice in what happens in my life, you know, life is whatever you make of it, so make sure you make it good. I think that most of the theists here believe that there is no free will because they want to believe that there is an absolute meaning for your life, no matter what happens in it; God made your life the way it is because he thought that it was best. This is another example of one of religions few benefits; that people can feel good about themselves because they know that there is meaning in what they do.

Well, anyway, I think I'm done for now. Sorry for the uninterpretable gibberish that may have resulted from my ramblings... Anyway, I hope that this will help with the discussion in some way...


EDIT: After thinking about it, I don't think that I really provided an actual explanation of why you can never prove nor disprove free will. The reason is because, regardless of which option is chosen, that option and only that option is chosen. Since the choice happened in the past compared to when people actually analyze it, that option is the only option that could ever have been chosen, because then it would alter the future that the observers are now in, which isn't possible. Either side could play it off as either free-will or destiny, because they can't go back and re-do it to prove otherwise. Oh boy...I dunno why, but I feel like I just opened up a can of worms... Oh well, I'll leave it to you guys to interpret it however you will.
 
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a computer will allways take the logical solution or the the OPTION that he has been given that comes closests.

Although a human mostly will do the same he can alter his CHOISE as he sees fitt

in a nice and simple example : it is raining and there are to options.
1. take the car
2. take your bike

witch one do you think the computer is gonna take ?

every single one is TAKING THE OPTION 1.

but for a human this is differnent. Allthoug most humans will choise nr 1

there are humans who will choise nr two just because they like the feeling of the rain on their skin. or just will allways prefer the bike over the car.
Maybe they are afraid of the car.

See the differnce? what chemical reaction causes this then ?
 
a computer will allways take the logical solution or the the OPTION that he has been given that comes closests.

You don't grasp this it seems. It's an analogy. A computer makes choices based on inputs. Humans make choices based on inputs. Computers have a program, humans a personality. What makes a personality able to make 'free' choices?

Also, define 'free will' like I asked, without resorting to a 'choice' explanation. It has been pointed out to you, that a die does not choose which face to land on, and we cannot predict which face it will land on. Neither choice nor unpredictability are not good examples to base a definition of 'free will' on, therefore.

So, your next post must establish a common reference for us to debate, or this thread is meaningles. Define 'free will' or resign.
 
Determinism is an illusion, as much as free will is. Cause and effect is mental shorthand for various degrees of probability - at the quantum level, the fundamental level of physics, there is no such thing. We see determinism as we see blocks of wood - the fact that a block of wood is mostly empty space and is not made of "wood" anyway is something we have to learn.
Two problems here. First, even if you want to invoke quantum indeterminacy as a mechanism for free will, you have to deal with the fact that quantum phenomenon are completely random - at best, this would allow you to establish "random will" that a person doesn't actually have any control over.

Second, determinism certainly is present on the macroscopic scale. You have to get down to very specific, very small scales - like a single atom waiting to decay, or the position of an individual electron around a nucleus - before quantum indeterminacy starts to matter. It's not at all clear that quantum indeterminacy has anything to do with the macroscopic functioning of the brain. Even a single neuron is so large that indeterminate quantum effects would no longer have any significant impact.
 
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