Do animals have souls?

I think it is kind of absurd for someone to say that if humans have souls then all other animals must, considering that no one even knows what a soul is.

As someone earlier touched on, if you go by that reasoning, why stop at animals?

Therefore, if humans have souls, ALL life must have souls, right?

Not even mentioning the implications that brings up about the possibility of all life being self-aware and cognizant...

By this reasoning there MUST be AIDS in Heaven, right?
 
Maybe we should specify which heaven we are talking about - since the Christian heaven would probably be ruled by the Christian God, and all we know about Him is in the Bible.

For instance all through Deuteronomy and Leviticus we see that God asks the Israelites to differentiate between "clean" and "unclean" in animals, offerings, people, etc. to show what is acceptable to God, and to reinforce the concept of holiness. It is reasonable to assume that only what God considers holy or righteous will be accepted into His kingdom, i.e. "heaven".

By this method, abstract things such as hatred, war, poverty and suffering can be excluded (the Bible says "cut off") from heaven just as well as physical/biological things like viri, single-cell organisms, plants and, well... people who reject God.

What it implies is that what will be cut off might not be along the dotted lines we tend to see. Maybe some animals go to heaven and some don't - who knows. God emphasizes justice, and as we all know: justice does not (at least under ideal circumstances) discriminate on any grounds except the law.

And in this case, "the law" is God's law, since "heaven" is His kingdom.

Under different circumstances or hypotheses, we work with different rules, and it ceases to be "Christian" and moves on to philosophy or secular speculation.

Rom. 3:
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
___"So that you may be proved right when you speak
_______and prevail when you judge."
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
 
Jenyar,
so the christian god will deny an animal that has some physical flaw? So an animal that was probably in pain before it died will be less likely to get into heaven? Man, christian-god turns into more of an asshole everyday, he has to be the coldest fictional character in history.
I thought the grinch was bad...
 
You don't understand. All animals, everything and everybody belongs to God. The point is the difference between acceptance and rejection. God rejects all sacrifices if people don't make that destinction. The firstborn were dedicated to God, as a sign of acknowledging that God provides - and of atonement, how we are reconciled with Him. They are a sign and a promise of our redemption.

God is completely holy - in Him there is no darkness, no sin and no evil - nothing that isn't sanctified (redeemed, made righteous and acceptable) can be part of Him. I can't speak for animals, but if you want to make no destinction between people and animals, I guess they share the same fate.

Anyway, if animals share the same covenant as God made with His people, if they suffer unjustly, it is just as likely that they will share in everlasting glory. Whichever you look at it - justice will prevail.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Isaiah 66
2 Has not my hand made all these things,
and so they came into being?"
declares the LORD .
"This is the one I esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
and trembles at my word.
3 But whoever sacrifices a bull
is like one who kills a man,
and whoever offers a lamb,
like one who breaks a dog's neck;
whoever makes a grain offering
is like one who presents pig's blood,
and whoever burns memorial incense,
like one who worships an idol.
They have chosen their own ways,
and their souls delight in their abominations;
4 so I also will choose harsh treatment for them
and will bring upon them what they dread.
For when I called, no one answered,
when I spoke, no one listened.
They did evil in my sight
and chose what displeases me."
 
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What is a soul?

soul, also called spirit, an entity supposed to be present only in living things, corresponding to the Greek psyche and Latin anima. Since there seems to be no material difference between an organism in last moments of his life and newly dead body, many philosophers since the time of Plato have claimed that the soul is an immaterial componant of an organism. Because only material things are observed to be subject to dissolution, Plato took the soul's immateriality as grounds for its immortality. Niether Plato nor Aristotle thought that only persons had souls: Aristotle ascribed souls to animals and plants since they all exhibited some living functions. Unlike Plato, Aristotile denied the transmigration of souls from one species to another after death; he was also more skeptical about the soul's capacity for disembodiment -- roughly, survival and functioning without a body. Descartes argued that only persons had souls and that the soul's immaterial nature made freedom possible even if the human body is subject to deterministic physical laws. As a subject of thought, memory, emotion, desire, and action, the soul has been supposed to be an entity that makes self-consciousness possible, that differentiates simultanious experiences into experiences either of the same person or of different persons, and that accounts for personal identity or a person's continued identity through time. Dualists argue that the soul and body must be distinct in order to explain conciousness and the possibility of immortality. Materialists argue that consciousness is entirely the result of complex physical processes.

Source: The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy

The Soul in Christianity

In Christianity the soul is all important. However, because the Bible does not give a formal definition of the concept, Christian interpretations vary greatly. Under the influence of the Neoplatonists, the soul often came to be set over against the body in a dualistic concept that posited a God-given soul distinct from an inferior, earth-bound body. Scholasticism (specifically that of St. Thomas Aquinas) studied the soul in great elaboration, and the scholastic definition of the soul as “substantial form of the body” obviates many philosophical difficulties. The nature of humanity is involved in the whole consideration of the soul; hence the term “rational soul” for the distinctive soul of humans. The soul of beasts is called the “animal soul” and that of plants the “vegetative soul.” The scholastics considered the rational soul alone as immortal and capable of union with God.

The origin of the soul has been a controversial question in Christian history. Two points of view may be distinguished: creationism, which posits that God creates each individual soul in a special act of creation (at the time of conception according to some or that of birth according to others), and traducianism, which suggests that the parents in begetting the child beget the soul too. The creationist principle has been generally held sway in Christianity.

Source: Encyclopedia.com
 
If God comes and says "Animals do have souls" then 99% theists will become atheists. and few atheists will become theists after seeing God.:D
 
I don't know how right you are, Jenyar.

People aren't ruled by their instincts (although they can let themselves be). Animals don't reason before they act. Yes, they make choices - but again, those are fight or flee decisions.

This is pretty wrong. People are mostly instinct! Would you jump in front of an oncoming car? Would you jump off a bridge knowing you would die? Would you shoot yourself in the face, knowing you would die? Those aren't based on reason, they are based on instinct.

And yes, there are people who commit suicide, but suicide happens in the animal kingdom as well. Some pack animals die immediately even when minorly injured by a predator, for the survival of the pack. Others commit suicide so their offspring can eat. A species of spider actually lets the offspring eat her!

And in a way, if you look at it, suicide in humans can be broken down to the very same reasons.

If you only had one peice of bread a day to eat, would you eat it, or give it to your son, knowing that if you fed your son, you would die? If you had to jump in front of a car to save your son, would you do it?

Even the cases where people feel hopeless and useless, they believe that killing themselves would be beneficial to their families. Sure, it is warped, but I wouldn't call it reasoning. Suicide isn't something you can reason, it's something that comes from an overwhelming "need."


Animals aren't held responsible for their actions - people simply decide for them if their actions are beneficial or detrimental

This isn't true. No living being--human or animal--willingly does something that it knows will be detrimental to itself or it's family, whichever takes presidence. If a human kills, it is for the same reasons that an animal does it; to produce a more suitable enviroment for itself and it's family. (I don't just say offspring, becuase it is not always the offspring in which an animal is trying to protect...some species protect the entire family unit, while others are only loyal to the offspring) And if reason had a part in the decisionmaking of whether or not to kill, then murders would only take place when one KNEW it was in self-defense, or when one KNEW it could get away with it.

You don't see animals standing back so that humans can have a better life, do you?

Never. But do you ever see a human stand back so an animal can have a better life? No. You. Don't.

Again, this falls under instinct. An animal will not kill a human only when it knows that there is no threat, or the threat is not as great as the resulting death from hunger. This is why a tiger in captivity will allow a human to pet it, while wild tigers will not. And a human will not kill an animal only when it does not need food, and sees no threat. Think about it: If a woman running an animal shelter found herself unable to leave the building, eventually, no matter how much she cared for those animals, would eat them, wouldn't she? Of course she would. Humans NEVER stand back so the animal can have a better life...they only stand back when the don't have to step in.

We have the responsibility, and as we have concluded, it isn't only because we are further up the evolutionary ladder - that's a cop-out.

THIS statement is soley based upon your religious beliefs. And honestly, it's my opinion that you calling it a "cop-out" is in itself a cop-out. There is no fact behind your statement, there has been nothing "concluded". Our only responsibility is to make sure we have enough animals and plants to live off of, and that's it. Evolution only lets us think that far ahead.

JD
 
Animals are better than humans,so if anyone should have a soul it is them.

If a soul exists then it is a quantum physical thing associated with consciousness,
my best definition of a soul would be:

That of continued consciousness throughout life and after death,if we view it as a quantum computation its what makes us aware of ourselves.

Animals get on with there own shit,sometimes thay can be nasty although on most occasions its to survive,humans are a little stranger.

I believe the more intelligent you are,the more insane you are,insanity is kinda just over bearing and extreme curiosity,
so say i wanna know what your head looks like split in half!
easy i just go and get an axe and find out,however one may portray this curiosity in the form of art like song lyrics,paintings,violent films etc.

Animals curiosity is a little bit more limited,hence intelligent levels are lower,but the awareness of self is there.

Religion and insanity do not mix well at all,you really dont wanna stir them two up in a blender,religous people are not generally insane and there not stupid either,psychology plays a major role i believe rather than intelligence.

Which moves to my other point that intelligence dont mean shit around the whole soul/sense of self idea,
technically speaking a retard or even cabbagefied handicap individual may have less intelligence than an animal,would you suggest that person does not have a soul?

To me thats the only clear cut way out is to suggest god does not make handicap people,he forgot to dish out a soul to them
"oh woops missed that one hes now braindead"
if the soul is supposed to be the whole person inside then the mechanical function thus of the body should relate to that soul,but they do not!
we are forced to assume a soul is already present YET the physical attributes of that individual do not bare any resemblence to a creature of human quality.

Thats my argument that helps support the idea that if we have souls so do animals,cos a soul does not have to prove physical attributes towards human behaviour or so called intelligence.
 
simple

its called objectivity people. save your self a life time of guessing. www.aynrand.org this is my good deed for the day. i promise you wont regret it. especially those of you who know the absolute importance of self esteem and the consequences of lack there of.later
 
If you have ever had a pet such as a dog and you are very close to that pet, then you just know they have a soul. They would have a consciousness the same as we do, that is they are are aware of themselves and others. The difference is that the don't think as we do. Their thinking is largley based on instinct and they are able to associate many words and phrases with their meanings without actually understanding their actual meaning. For examle if you say to a dog "we will go for a walk tomorrow" it will get all excited because it only associates the word walk (or walkies) but the rest is meaningless to it. I think, yes, they do have a soul being very close to my beloved Border Collie. It is just inconceivable that he is souless.

Rex:) :)
 
Look at it this way,so far we cannot make a computer conscious,we cant make it intelligent either.

The day we learn how to make exact duplicates of our pets (cyborg pets) the day we we also be able to make exact duplicates of humans.

That day may come eventually,once a computer is self aware then essentially it would now have a soul.

Now you could say "hey but its not a natural process it cannot have a soul"

i.e you argue that its not human or animal and was not produced in the natural way.

This argument is flawed by the basis that it has indeed been made out of this universes materials.

A carbon atom in my brain is the same carbon atom in a piece of charcoal.

What you are doing is re arranging things from the universe into a robot/computer with a sense of self.

By pure logic alone we know a computer can be made to have soul attributes.

Now heres the crunch:
when the computer dies does it go to heaven or hell?

Sounds stupid but this is a good argument AGAINST there being such thing as a soul in the first place.

I mean youve built something capable of independent thought,awareness of self and intelligence,essentially that thing is as good as a human brain.

Now it could develop character,it will have psychology and it could develop emotions.

So from this you would have to say that either it has a soul or it dont,if it dont,why not?
if it does then we go back to the afterlife question.
 
I personally hold to the belief that if humans have souls so does anything with a brain. Its just animals have smaller souls than a sapient.
 
Animals have souls

I realy have to agree with you Doom, It just inconceaviable that an animal could not have a soul thus a consciousness, It puts a whole new light on the cruel way we treat them. I'm not saying that we shouldn't enjoy a juicy steak or anything but a little less cruelty in the way they are rounded up and killed would not go amiss. I believe their treatment at abatiors and the holding pens leaves a great deal to be desired. But souls, yes I beliebe emphaticaly that, as I said before, that they are fully consciouss and often have an awareness that we have lost, if we ever had it in the first place.

Rex
 
Originally posted by JDawg
I don't know how right you are, Jenyar.

This is pretty wrong. People are mostly instinct! Would you jump in front of an oncoming car? Would you jump off a bridge knowing you would die? Would you shoot yourself in the face, knowing you would die? Those aren't based on reason, they are based on instinct.

So are you saying that everything we do is down to survival, and everything that is done for survival is instinctive?

to produce a more suitable enviroment for itself and it's family. (I don't just say offspring, becuase it is not always the offspring in which an animal is trying to protect...some species protect the entire family unit, while others are only loyal to the offspring) And if reason had a part in the decisionmaking of whether or not to kill, then murders would only take place when one KNEW it was in self-defense, or when one KNEW it could get away with it.

If reason was not involved, we would never have shown progress. I think all our science-followers here will agree with me on this. Why haven't all animals started exhibiting culture, art, religion etc. if they have - evolutionary speaking - had so much more time to develop it than homo sapiens?

Never. But do you ever see a human stand back so an animal can have a better life? No. You. Don't.

Again, this falls under instinct.
I don't know how you can say this. People have animal reservations, animal rights groups, humane societies, we even have vegetarians. Now show me any omnivore who consciously decided not to eat meat... How does this enhance our chances of survival? How is this instinctive?

I'm going to tread on dangerous ground now. How is homosexuality a survival instinct? Does it ensure a purer gene-pool? Does it ensure a large family?

Of course we have instincts, I'm not denying that. But I'm not convinced that humans are slaves to instinct, or that our animal natures rule our existence.
 
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I can not answer about the soul question, but if soul is about consciensnous, then as far as scientists are concerned, other then humans, only some apes and perhaps daulphins have the capability of self-reflectivness, that means that the majority of other animals can't even percieve their own existance. The mirror trick is the best avelable to study self-reflectivness.

What makes humans different then any other Animals like Socrates put it, is that unlike animals, we have volonty that serves the reason. So what I mean, is that we are different then the majority of other animals, we pocess self-reflectivness, and we pocess a volonty that is not only there to serve instinct, but as well beliefs, reason, etc...

So, in conclusion, we have a mind, and other then us, only few animals have a mind.
 
Although I don't believe in the soul, I do hope that Christains (and other religious people) believe that animals have a soul. This view would improve treatment of animals. If people believe animals don't have a soul, methinks that animals will be valued less.

If you don't know, I hate animal cruelty. I'm not vegatarian, but cruelty without good reason is close to insanity. Hence, my name (The Mountain Hare). :D
 
The Idea that people and or animals may have souls has been around since mans evolution. ( yes I said evolution not creation )
Many races of people drew pictures, made carvings, and built entire religion / belief and cultural systems around the notion all living things have souls.
This interest and belief in souls is still present today in many traditional indigenous peoples from Australian Aboriginals to American Indians too name but two of the hundreds in existance, so I dont see why this question should immediately be redirected to target just Christians.

As for my opinion.. I have no idea what criteria must be met in order to be granted a soul should souls even exist in the first place, .....furthermore ...Just who decides how and if this crieteria is met is also beyond me.
I guess part of me hopes there is more to life after death than just a whole load of decomposition, though im dont feel its likely christians and their God have all the answers, though it sure would be cool to meet up with my best mate ( my dog ) when I die, he is the most loyal friend I've ever had in my life.
 
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