Did Nothing Create Everything?

Correct, it did not have time.

Your argument seems to be "there's no way life could have evolved without God!" The above is an example of a simple, self-reproducing piece of RNA (a ribozyme to be exact) that certainly COULD evolve into life, given time. Indeed, given that it reproduces and inherits its parent's characteristics, there's no way it would NOT evolve into more complex life given time.

That's not faith, that's science. It's like looking at a river bank that erodes a few inches every year. It is reasonable to assume that, after centuries, it would have eroded a lot, and created a larger canyon. That's just plain old geology. It would certainly be silly to say "only God can make big canyons, because in our lifetime, we can only observe nature making small ones!"

Because it leads to testable theories.

This, again, is an argument from ignorance. "I do not understand X, therefore X is not valid."

The imagination is a great thing, and can certainly be used to crack doors open for scientific research.

I am a strong believer in imagination. I love science fiction for example.

And good science is wonderful stuff!!!

But I also think that left unchecked, unbounded extrapolation, can and has really damaged the reputation and trustworthiness of the scientific community over the years.

In the beginning there was Naturalism...

Science assumes Naturalism as a starting point and proceeds on from there. It also assumes that God does not exist and goes on. It assumes that there is no evidence for God, because there can’t be any evidence for God, because of the prior assumption that God doesn’t exist. And it goes on and assumes so much more that is built on those assumed foundations. It becomes a series of assumptions based on assumptions based on assumptions.

The field of science left its foundational principals long ago.

Then people who have bought into all of the base and dependent assumptions, preach these same assumptions as if they are fact, when they are not.

It has never been proven that Naturalism is all that there is. Science cannot even prove its own primary assumptions.

The field of human evolution for example, has become very disreputable over the past century or so. Resorting to the creation of various hoaxes and frauds, so scientists can become famous and retain their funding.

This actually is what many people have come to expect from that particular field of research.

Waiting for the next big declaration of a fraud to take place, with the expectation that it will only be debunked later. It is the way science kinda works, but it also makes it untrustworthy. There is also so much money involved here!!!

Or, how many times are we told by the scientific community that a particular food item is bad for us one year, so we all stop eating it, and then are told later that it was actually good for us the whole time.

Gets old! The crying wolf thing!

Is global warming real or not? If the scientific community is saying it is real, a lot of people are just waiting and expecting that to be debunked next. Loss of confidence!

I know they are usually trying to do the right thing, but when it fails so often, it does result in a common lowering of confidence in the people who call themselves “experts” in the scientific community.

It also leads to a general distrust of the press!

Don’t you identify even with a little bitty piece of what I am saying here?
 
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All right then. I watched the entire James Tour talk, brought to us courtesy of the Discovery Institute.

Boiled down, the substance of the 1 hour talk is an argument from incredulity. In effect, Tour argues that "I can't think of how nature could have combined chemicals in such a way as to start life. Therefore it is impossible."

Tour never really engages with the question of whether a series of small steps could have led to the chemical construction of a simple living cell. Instead, he assumes that the very first life must have had the same level of complexity as all modern life. His argument is that because modern cells, carbohydrates and so on are complicated and varied things, it is extraordinarily unlikely that they could have arisen through any purely chemical process (i.e. one not requiring the prior existence of living things to "help" with the assembly).

Here are my rough notes of some of the things he discussed, with my comments on a few of them.

  • Cells are complex
These are modern cells he is talking about. He never engages with the possibility of simpler cells, such as might have existed in the earliest lifeforms.
  • False claim that non-living molecules have never been shown to "move towards order and life" without the help of living molecules.
Although he discusses many experiments that show the formation of various precursors of life, Tour still makes the claim that chemical processes never "move towards life" without help from human agents or pre-existing life. This is a false claim and he knows it because he specifically refers to the literature that disproves his claim.
  • Talks about homochirality as if this is needed in advance of life.
This was a strange comment. Essentially, Tour claims that life requires homochiral molecules. My own understanding is that this was most likely an accident of evolution. Things could have easily ended up with the opposite chirality preference.
  • Complains that chemical processes don't have a targeted goal to aim for.
Tellingly, Tour falls into an old Creationist trap with this comment. He takes a teleological view of life. To him, life must have an end goal in sight from the start. The first cells must somehow have known that they were "aiming" to create human beings somewhere down the line. Of course, in evolution there are no such goals.

Interestingly, I note in passing that Tour is careful in his talk not to emphasise the enormous tracts of time available for abiogenesis. At one point in his talk he slips up a bit and admits that the world is millions of years old at least, rather than the 6000 year age generally approved by his audience.
  • Thinks that "purification" of chemical intermediaries is necessary at various points.
  • Complains that things won't react in the correct order to make life.
  • Complains that precise conditions are needed to make the relevant reactions go.
  • Complains that not enough can be made without "going back to the beginning" to add material.
In all of this, Tour ignores the scale of the chemical experiment that was taking place on the proto-earth. The entire planet was one big chemical soup. Tour downplays the time and the space available for the necessary conditions to come about. At the same time, I think he most likely overplays the complexity involved. Caveat: I am not an organic chemist, but then again only two people in his audience of several hundred people willing to pay for a Discovery Institute sponsored event identified themselves as such.
  • Sort of irreducible complexity argument - "if you do one thing wrong, it doesn't work"
At the start of his talk, Tour explicitly says he doesn't want to talk about Intelligent Design or the bible. By the end of the talk he has injected ID by stealth and he forgets completely about what he said about not mentioning the bible.

Here, in the middle, he grabs a play from the usual Creationist grab bag, arguing that cells, carbohydrates or lipids (I forget which) are effectively "irreducibly complex". In support of this idea, he then spends quite a long time heading down the path of merely counting the total number of possible random combinations of chemicals. In the process, he apparently forgets everything he knows about how chemistry constrains which of those random arrangements is more or less likely to occur.
  • carbohydrates are complex
  • interactomes are complex
Tour spends a lot of time in his talk trying to dazzle his audience with chemical jargon that he knows they won't understand, emphasising how complicated the chemistry of life is and how none of his scientific peers know what they are doing when they do work in the field of life origins. He's the only true expert, apparently. It's easy to do this when your audience is a lay audience containing next to no experts in his particular field of expertise.
  • counts total number of possible permutations of various combinations of smaller units (e.g. carbohydrates). But this assumes they come together randomly.
I've already mentioned this one above. Somebody really ought to remind Tour that chemistry isn't random, because apparently he's forgotten that by this point in his talk.
  • information: complains that information can't be created (e.g. an order of molecules or bases in DNA).
As soon as a speaker at a Creationist conference mentions the word "information" in reference to DNA or RNA, alarm bells ought to start to ring, because its a common Creationist lie that evolution cannot and does not create new information. Tour, without actually saying this in so many words, gives a dog whistle to Creationists in the know at this point in his talk. Of course, he doesn't actually back up his claim with evidence.
  • complains that information changes over time.
This one is a bit odd, since most of his argument is based on what he says is the inability of chemicals to form the right structures to make life. Here, I think without realising it, he admits that lots of different structures are viable in certain living chemicals, like carbohydrates. Any of them would be suitable for life. However, he takes the opposite tack and tries to argue that variety is a negative here instead of a positive.
  • complains that, currently, chemists can't synthesize cells, but admits it might be done in future.
No comment necessary, really. Tour's entire argument boils down to "making cells from chemical precursors is hard". Since he can't imagine how nature did it, he concludes that it can't be done. He also spends a lot of time attempting argument by ridicule, which must endear him to his colleagues. But at this point in his talk he lets slip that maybe chemists will eventually succeed in making cells artificially from scratch.

If chemists can do it in such a relatively short time, it would seem natural to wonder about what nature might achieve given an entire planet and hundreds of millions of years.
  • Attempts argument by ridicule of a Nobel prize winner (Jack Szostak).
This part of the talk is probably the low point. Tour makes a personal attack on Szostak, at one point flat-out saying that he lied in scientific papers. Reading up on this, I find that Tour claims that he later apologised personally to Szostak for his comments, admitting that he went too far. Certainly, Tour has publically retracted his claim that Szostak lied.

Tour concludes with some general claims and comments:
  • Says that scientists mislead the public about how much progress has been made in origin of life chemistry.
This has the whiff of conspiracy thinking about it, and at the end of the day Tour provides nothing much to back up his claim in this talk. No doubt it went down well with his Creationist audience. To make them even happier, Tour ends with a comforting lie:
  • Claims there is no discordance between scientific facts and statements in the bible.
and, of course
  • closes with a bible quote.
If there was any doubt about Tour's religious motivations at the start of his talk (which there really wouldn't have been given the circumstances of the talk itself), it is erased by the end.

To summarise then, I return to where I started. Tour's argument in this talk is an argument from incredulity. Tour can't imagine how life arose naturally from non-living chemical precursors, so therefore he argues that it is impossible. One motivation for making that argument, and more generally from going on the Creationist speaking circuit, is undoubtedly Tour's personal religious views.

Wow!
Thank you James!
Great Review!!!

I will take some time to weigh your opinions.
 
SetiAlpha:

The only thing I recall from earlier was your claim that a split rock in Arabia must have been a miraculous source of water created by God to quench the thirst of the Israelites who you think went to Arabia. I found that to be completely unconvincing, for reasons I gave when you brought it up.

Exactly as described in the Bible and Exodus account...

The Stone that God broke open to provide water for the people has been found.

That is where I stopped posting...

The Mountain of God has been found, with evidence of the past presence of God on it. The approach to the presence of God at the Site is from the East, which is an important aspect. The Plan of Salvation given in the New Testament was symbolically laid out on the Mountain and surrounding Site, over 3000 years ago.

Elijah witnessed a fire event while he was staying in a cave at the Mountain of God. There is a massive burn mark on the ground in an arc miles away from the cave, on the horizon from the cave, clearly visible in satellite photography. So there is also evidence for that act of God, on the ground.

The Oasis at Elim has been found.

And the Red Sea Crossing Site has been found with evidence of the miracle that happened there. The Sea is 8-9 miles wide and over 2000 feet deep. There is evidence on the sea floor from the act of God that took place there. How many tons of water displacement would that require?

There is evidence for the existence of God just sitting out in the desert right now.

But, I know, there can’t be any evidence for God, because God does not exist, so there can’t be any evidence for God, because God does not exist, because...
 
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OK. COOL!!!
Tell me you want me.

:EDIT:

Crap! You are a man right!? I'm nervous, maybe a bit curious, but I'm nervous... But I mean, how would you be able to beat your wife if you weren't a man? I don't want to sound like a conservative, but I still can't get my head around that.
 
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davewhite04:


The thing about evolution that fundamentalist theists either don't know or else wilfully choose to forget, is that randomness is only one part of the process. Evolution requires only two things: a source of variation (in genetics) and one or more selection mechanisms (one example is Darwinian natural selection).

In the case of genetic mutations, that is a random process, although mutations are not the only way genetic diversity is produced, or even the main way. The fundies are aware of this randomness. What they forget about or ignore is natural selection, which is the thing that selects out the good in the random outcomes and discards the bad.

I don't really know why the fundies won't take a minute or two to try to understand evolution before making themselves look stupid with statements like "Darwinian evolution is just random chance". Then again, if they were a bit smarter they probably wouldn't be fundies in the first place.
Maybe these "fundies" are right? You don't want them to be right, that is why you shouldn't discuss anything in religion. This is why fundies should not say a word in religion. You're a fundie.

Hopefully you might become an expert on something useful, and forget about this crap.
 
Exactly as described in the Bible and Exodus account...

The Stone that God broke open to provide water for the people has been found.
How do you know you've got the right stone?

The Mountain of God has been found, with evidence of the past presence of God on it.
Really? What evidence?

Elijah witnessed a fire event while he was staying in a cave at the Mountain of God. There is a massive burn mark on the ground in an arc miles away from the cave, on the horizon from the cave, clearly visible in satellite photography. So there is also evidence for that act of God, on the ground.
Can a burn mark only be caused by God? If not, then tell me how you know this one was caused by God.

The Oasis at Elim has been found.
What's the Oasis at Elim?

And the Red Sea Crossing Site has been found with evidence of the miracle that happened there. The Sea is 8-9 miles wide and over 2000 feet deep. There is evidence on the sea floor from the act of God that took place there. How many tons of water displacement would that require?
Okay. This is big news, but I haven't seen it on the front pages of all the news media. Why is that? If we have proof of the parting of the Red Sea, that's a pretty major piece of evidence for God.

What evidence are you talking about, exactly? Where are God's marks on the sea floor? What's the location, by the way? Where did the Red Sea crossing happen?

But, I know, there can’t be any evidence for God, because God does not exist, so there can’t be any evidence for God, because God does not exist, because...
No. Forget that.

You say you have evidence. So present it.
 
Maybe these "fundies" are right?
Right about what?

They are certainly wrong about evolution. That is what I was talking about, there.

You don't want them to be right, that is why you shouldn't discuss anything in religion.
It doesn't matter what I want. Objectively, they don't know what they are talking about when they talk about evolution, regardless of what I want. All you need is a little education in order to see that.

It's like if somebody started claiming that 2+2=5. A person who doesn't know any mathematics might say "Well, they could be right. Who knows?" But anybody with a basic education in arithmetic knows immediately that 2+2=5 is nonsensical. If evidence is needed, it can be provided, of course. There's a lot of evidence that 2+2=4, and nothing that says 2+2=5, apart from baseless assertions. Similarly, when it comes to the theory of evolution, there are mountains of evidence (sometimes literally) that tell us the theory is correct, and only baseless assertions that it is wrong. (Note: we're talking about the basics here, not the nitty gritty details. Obviously, biologists are still working on lots of those details.)

This is why fundies should not say a word in religion. You're a fundie.
No. Look up a definition of "Christian fundamentalist", for instance. One prominent feature of the Christian fundamentalist is that they believe that the bible is literally true.

I am an atheist. There are no sacred texts of atheism.

Hopefully you might become an expert on something useful, and forget about this crap.
Too late! I'm already an expert on a number of different things. Unfortunately for you, this is one of them.

What isn't random chance?
Evolution. Haven't you been listening?
 
Maybe I'm saying you're spoiled?
In most respects. I've got the flu hence my sporodic posts, it's a bit better now.

God? hmmm he created evil. Imagine what he's like? All these fluffy ideas about "God". If he is the perfect judge then we're all fucked. I'm not sure if he is perfect, but in any case even if he just checks the news every other day, we'd still be fucked. Maybe this Jesus...
 
In most respects. I've got the flu hence my sporodic posts, it's a bit better now.

God? hmmm he created evil. Imagine what he's like? All these fluffy ideas about "God". If he is the perfect judge then we're all fucked. I'm not sure if he is perfect, but in any case even if he just checks the news every other day, we'd still be fucked. Maybe this Jesus...
heh,

Maybe u should try something other than Fox News.
 
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