Did Nothing Create Everything?

[James R]

davewhite04:

See James you need to think deeper... think who you are? you as a person, what drives you? Arguments? Answering jewellery questions?

I don't see how that's relevant to whether I'm 2000 years old or not. Please explain.

You really think you cease to exist when that bag of bones you're living in rots or is burnt?

Is there any reason to think something else happens?

I, as a person, appear to be tied to my physical body and brain. If either of those rots or is burnt, it would follow that I will cease to be as a person.

But perhaps you have some argument or evidence for the existence of a soul, or similar? If so, please present it.

Also, do you believe in reincarnation? Is that why you're claiming you were alive 2000 years ago? Do you have memories from 2000 years ago, when you saw Jesus?

Not sure what would be interesting, but do you know how much of quantum physics is based on unobserved space, whatever you want to call it.

Again, I don't see the relevance of that to your claim that you witnessed Jesus 2000 years ago. Please explain.

I understand, you are not meant to discover eternity in this lifetime, unless you forget about everything you thought you knew.

Nothing you have said so far makes a convincing case for your claim. Can you do better?

 

[TheFrogger]

If doing nothing creates everything, does this mean ALL of us, and how would God's non-intervention effect him? Would he also have everything, or would his inaction mean he has nothing?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I have read an earlier thread of yours which tells me why there is a lack of participation in this thread.

It seems to me now that you are not interested in the truth and in fact incapable of recognising the problem you have that of a complete inability to be rational in considering facts.

But know this if you were to present what you claim to be evidence in court or in a paper for peer review it would be rejected., and of course you would not accept that result from a court or a peer review which must tell you something and the fact that you would take no message from such rejections is perhaps most supportive of a proposition that you are in fact delusional and so obsessed by your belief that you have entirely lost touch with reality.

And again you will brush that off because in your delusional state you believe you are cleverer than all the scientists, archeologists and scholars who find against your position.
Now pretend humility but you will not fool me.
And sadly you are one of many who present as nice people but who are indeed fanatics capable of doing anything at all if they take it in their head that they are obeying their made up god.

But please go on and on because the longer you deny reality hopefully the more folk passing by will appreciate the damage religion does to otherwise normal people.

The reality you cite as authority a book full of errors and horrible morality but thru an unsupported notion that it is the word of your made up god you are totally blind to any flaw which is odd for I can find several in each and every page in the bible that I have read cover to cover.
Yet you can via your delusion not find not one error not one example of horrible morality...so tell me why are you not out on the Sabath killing folk gathering sticks on their front lawn or keeping a couple of slaves as your good book clearly permits you to do...and of course you will have the answers to defend the indefensible that is always a telling sign of delusion one umoungst many you exhibit.

And now here is your opportunity to feel smug...your response must be polite so you can feel good about yourself and in keeping with the message you acknowledge and follow in contrast to the message on slave ownership and management or the list of folk who should be put to death which you conveniently ignore...hypocrite be you.

It's a joke and happily after my anger, that such stupidity and ignorance still plagues the human race, subsides I do sit back and laugh and start to think of the faith healers, the private jets, the talking in tounges, the talking snakes,the dress ups and then the starvation and inequity in the world seems ok because obviously there is no god to fix it just fools playing make believe too fearful to embrace reality.

You have nothing to offer but I know that won't stop you..your kind are not content to suffer your illness alone but want to infect all around you...bugger off and keep away until you get better.
Alex

Alex, when you post your concerns, anger, and feelings of outrage, like this it really moves me, and strikes a deep cord of agreement within me. Because I really do agree with so much of what you say.

I see all of these things myself and I conclude that man is the corruptor of our World. I do not blame God for the evil man does.

You already know what I will say...

That God created mankind with a freewill and that He also gave us authority over this World to rule it and manipulate nature, and everything else, as we choose. The poor exist, for example, because men are selfish and do nothing, or do little to help them. People starve to death because of selfishness, etc. The list of problems man has created goes on and on and on. You know this.

God is not to blame for evil. God even hates Hell, just like you do, probably more so. That is the reason for a particular person’s death on a cross.

He backed off from His provision and protection of us, because we rejected His will for us. We wanted to go our own way. And so He let us go. This is what a loving parent does for their children. Exactly what you would have done.

So He just gave us over to our own will, knowing that our errors and mistakes could have the ability to draw us back to Him.

Every bit of our pain, is a decision point for us. We decide each and every time, whether we will choose to blame God for it, or blame ourselves.

Sorry for the preaching!

Sometimes I get confused and think I am in a Religion sub-forum. You know where people discuss Religion like things?

I really do agree with your outrage, I just might direct it differently. Your outrage comes out of your heart of love for others. Which is a perfectly appropriate, beautiful, and good thing.

Under Atheism, man has to be responsible for evil.

Who else would be?

Christianity teaches the same thing. They are both in agreement on this point.

You continue to show me that you are a very beautiful and wise soul.

... That you are a deep well of wisdom!

 

[SetiAlpha6]

What kind of sense would it make to hate a non-existent being? Either these people - whoever they are - secretly believe that God exists after all, but pretend they don't, or else they have hatred but no actual target for it. In the first case, those people wouldn't be atheists - they would be theists who hate God. In the second case, those people would be hopelessly confused, because who has hatred for "nothing"?

You've seen people like this, have you, SetiAlpha6? Where did you come across them?

I have certainly seen Christians who are like this.

And the way some Atheists put their words together, it can leave the impression that they might think this way.

I am not trying to describe you, Alex.

 

[sideshowbob]

If you wish, read Exodus chapter 3, it explains why Moses brought the Israelites to the Mountain of God. God told Moses to bring the people there.

God told Moses to bring the Israelites "the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey" (Exodus 3:17). I don't see where it mentions Midian.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Alex, when you post your concerns, anger, and feelings of outrage, like this it really moves me, and strikes a deep cord of agreement within me. Because I really do agree with so much of what you say.

I see you have studied conflict management, if not then you have somewhat a natural talent.

Do you know what you are agreeing with? I suspect not and rate your opening sentence simply a conflict resolution response.

You obviously have not digested the meal I prepared for you.

Let me be brief so grab a coffee and hold all calls.

Reading your non responces in the earlier thread where many members tried to help you with real facts indicates you are incapable of considering, if only for a moment, anything that does not accommodate your delusion.

You may note there are no members jumping in to say I am wrong a good test as to the correctness of one's proposition.

It's that simple.

And to some degree your rudeness, what else can one call it, to blunder on when reliable facts have been pointed out, does make me angry, as it shows how evil your cult must be such that it leaves it's followers incapable of rational consideration of established facts.

It makes me think of the use of the critism relating such a response to that of an ostridge with its head in the sand...the point being apparently that the bird brain thinks if it does not see something then it is not there...but I don't know that an ostridge does that but I can certainly imagine you with your head stuck someplace entertaining the notion that what you don't read is not a fact.

Such behaviour only shows that you are well aware that your faith can never stand up to rational assessment and exposure to facts.

That has nothing to do with the crazy invented apology for a non intervention god you call free will. The concept makes no sense and is at odds with the prophesy notion upon which the god story house of cards uses to sticky together the whole myth.

I see all of these things myself and I conclude that man is the corruptor of our World. I do not blame God for the evil man does.

I don't know what you see.

I precieve that you suffer from a delusion and have a make believe world that you inhabit where you add and subtract notions to the made up myth leaving what I can not guess.

Your replies seem to be to questions never asked.

Of course you can't blame god for the actions of humans, do you understand why that is the case? Can you blame any of the thousands of discarded invented gods for the deeds of humans when they ruled in the past. Why is that do you think?

However if I thought for one second the latest invention was real I would blame him for not creating a decent being and further would demand a hint of interest in the lives of his pets constructed first in clay and fashioned in his likeness...how silly that sounds, in fact each time I say that it sounds sillier than the time before...try it...

Certainly you can not blame a myth for the inconsistency of its creators. I mean why suggest this myth "loves you" when any fool can see real evidence that simply can not relate to them and the world they observe to a concept of a loving god...it's a joke...funny to those not fooled but cruel to those who believe such nonsense.

That God created mankind with a freewill and that He also gave us authority over this World to rule it and manipulate nature, and everything else, as we choose. The poor exist, for example, because men are selfish and do nothing, or do little to help them. People starve to death because of selfishness, etc. The list of problems man has created goes on and on and on. You know this.

Yeah yeah...same old excuses.

So this most powerful god, on your account capable of, indeed responsible for the creation of the universe, the giver of life to a clay model doll, the being able to fulfill prophesy...are we talking about the same god? This god can't fix it? This god just gives up? And the best solutions so far has been send a flood and cull the pets to all but eight, right there perhaps a total cull cause that could have avoided interacting with a female human to create a son for sacrifice ... With the unpleasant result of three gods in heaven and humans no better off...sounds perfectly plausible if you have been brainwashed.

This is what a loving parent does for their children.

Rubbish.
A loving parent is always there and certainly would not pull such a cop out...where do you get these lame excuses...you are talking about the creator of everything and want to parallel him to a human parent in an effort to patch up the myth...could one not expect this most powerful god to get it right, to step in and help rather than disappearing in a huff presumably mumbling " well if that's the way you want it go ahead I won't say I told you so".... And not to be heard from again...really.

So He just gave us over to our own will, knowing that our errors and mistakes could have the ability to draw us back to Him.

Sounds like a plan.

Tell me when did he tell you all this?
Well clearly like the flood idea and the son sacrifice that has not worked...so did he tell you what he will try next?
Why make up stuff that you don't know a thing about...

blame ourselves.

The concept of personal responsibility will never come in an environment where you entertain the myth of a creator...just can't happen.

Ever heard the expression "It's gods will" or "it's gods plan" ...what does that tell you...honestly get real.

Sorry for the preaching!

Liar. and you know it...so casual about putting out a lie.
Has your remorse for preaching hit you only just now?
Your are surrounded by lies, know this, and know that is why it is so easy to use a lie as a pause..not good..stop it.

You are not sorry at all. Your appology is no more than taking a breather before you go on to do just that more preaching ... Look at what you do next...

Your outrage comes out of your heart of love for others.

I agree but you left out the aspect that holds the greatest importance for me...the aspect of truth...my outrage is because so many humans are conned and lied to in the first place but then to realise their minds have been broken and corrupted with unsupported superstition and myth for no other reason than to control them it just sickens me. More so when the truth is readily available.
The truth can be found in the history via a simple study of the progression of religion from animal spirit worship, to Sun worhship, to human god (based on Sun worship) creation...all there in multiple sources, facts facts and more facts...and yet we have unfortunate people like you broken beyond repair...
Who believe they are incapable of holding a decent morality unless guided from the past via superstition...it is a very sad situation. Worse still is specifically your inability to do anything to help yourself and even more worse is that you infect those close to you confirming them to a dark existence dependant on primative superstition.
Sad just so horribly sad and humans could be so much more...take away religion and most of the evil you speak of will be gone...imagine a world where truth is put first, reality is not just a luxury for atheist s, where folk take personal responsibility for their actions, where they make the most of their one life rather than accept looser status.

Under Atheism, man has to be responsible for evil.

So simple ..no flood needed..no human god needed no three gods in a monotheistic belief system..no BS

Christianity teaches the same thing.

Look I like a lot of the teachings but why do they have to remain tied to lies and myth...why why why...
Why can't we throw out these lies why can't we just work with the truth.
So many problems come from building our morality of primative customs from the past...just imagine how domestic violence would reduce if the Bible was not there to lend authority to the evil notion that woman are mere possessions and that they must obey their master...the husband...that would be an almost immediate benefit and moreover to destroy this arrogant sense of entitlement derived from the Bible...think of the benefit...we must get rid of all the ancient custom and belief and move into a better future

You continue to show me that you are a very beautiful and wise soul.

... That you are a deep well of wisdom!

Your flattery goes nowhere, I already know I am decent...but you neglect to give me recognition re my determination to expose the truth, to want a world where the majority of humans are not brain washed and shackled to ancient superstition no more sophisticated than the worship of the cave bear spirit.

Perhaps you could see there is virtue in seeking the truth, there is virtue in being honest in your assessment of dogma, that there is virtue in breaking the cycle of superstition so your offspring can be better humans.

Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I am not trying to describe you, Alex.

It is easy to confuse things and fail to understand what emotions are in play but I can't generalise to determine anything really. I don't hate, I won't tolerate that emotion it is toxic. I allow frustration because I make sure I end it with a good laugh.
I don't hate you just because you represent something that I regard as a lie and the very thing that stands in the way of a better future.
I do try and look for the good things done by good people in their belief they are doing the good expected by their mythical god but I find it hard to get past the evil, the deaths etc directly attributable to religion, religions in general.
The thing that gets me most is their universal tendency to destroy history and every other opinion and culture.
Alex

 

[Oblivionspace]

Do you believe that Nothing created Everything?

If you do, please prove it.

(a+b/t) / R^n = 1


There u go !

 

[SetiAlpha6]

It is easy to confuse things and fail to understand what emotions are in play but I can't generalise to determine anything really. I don't hate, I won't tolerate that emotion it is toxic. I allow frustration because I make sure I end it with a good laugh.
I don't hate you just because you represent something that I regard as a lie and the very thing that stands in the way of a better future.
I do try and look for the good things done by good people in their belief they are doing the good expected by their mythical god but I find it hard to get past the evil, the deaths etc directly attributable to religion, religions in general.
The thing that gets me most is their universal tendency to destroy history and every other opinion and culture.
Alex

These evil acts you speak of are very real and were done outside of Christ’s teachings, not because of them, and you know this well, Alex.

My goal is to love all people.

I have never killed anyone! I would rather give my life for someone else than to take theirs. The only reason I would take a life, would be to protect someone else’s life.

Every day my goal is to be a blessing to the people around me, to the best of my ability. To help others be successful in their own life. To bring a smile if I can?

I am sure you have done, and would do these very same things. That is one of the reasons you enjoyed being Santa so much. You enjoyed making others happy!

What do you do with the very real death and destruction caused by Atheism?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

These evil acts you speak of are very real and were done outside of Christ’s teachings, not because of them, and you know this well, Alex.

You can't distance yourself from the old testament...the evil I select to make my point is the notion that woman are possessions etc and this clearly leads to all sorts of wrong. Study the reasons men give...in fact study domestic violence and be repulsed by the connection.

My goal is to love all people.

I achieved that goal some time ago. I take it as meaning respect, having compassion and being kind.

I have never killed anyone! I would rather give my life for someone else than to take theirs. The only reason I would take a life, would be to protect someone else’s life.

Do you suggest that without the teachings you would likely be killing people.

Every day my goal is to be a blessing to the people around me, to the best of my ability. To help others be successful in their own life. To bring a smile if I can? I am sure you would do these same things.

Do you think those fine ideals would be absent if you faced reality and cast out primitive superstition.
Just think you could be all that and enjoy the truth that gods are mere inventions ... do you feel incapable to determine a decent moral code without the assistance from the bronze age..particularly given you have to ignore many of gods directions to distill anything that is mildly acceptable..ie forget killing all the folk on gods death list, and having the guts to recognise slave ownership is wrong and no it was not different back then..it was wrong then and it is wrong now...ignoring the truth is evil.

What do you do with the very real death and destruction caused by Atheism?

Don't generalise..what deaths?
And perhaps you may care to address the countless humans who have died in events related directly to religion...the inquisition is just a hint, whitch hunts small potatoes but certainly wonderful examples of religious killing..mm 911.. what was the motivation as far as we can tell..And all these murders ..all of them..convinced that God was on their side...I see a problem..you don't.

You seem like a decent man and I can understand how you feel and how you have cherry picked to find your morality and I admit if you have a good heart you can find it..but that is the point it is you and your good heart that picks out something decent..but you have to ignore the bad stuff...that's wrong..a book inspired by God can't be so wrong on so many things...it is that simple.

Theists have the crazy notion that atheist are devoid of morality but that is just misinformed.

Anyways hang in there but please face the facts rather than ignore them..Study the history using sources outside the bible, follow the evolution of religion from worship of animal spirits, to Sun worship to invention of multiple human gods transparently linked to astrology and realise the Romans have conned us .... you can't find the truth by trying to prove what you already believe to be true as you can never fairly assess the evidence.
Now I am preaching and make no apologies as I want humans to escape all the ancient superstitions that cause so much suffering..e.g. domestic violence..I will hold back other evils so full attention can fall on this aspect.
Alex

 

[SetiAlpha6]

You can't distance yourself from the old testament...the evil I select to make my point is the notion that woman are possessions etc and this clearly leads to all sorts of wrong. Study the reasons men give...in fact study domestic violence and be repulsed by the connection.

Could it be that in the Old Testament, men corrupted and implemented the law beyond God’s intent? Like Jesus taught?

 

[Beer w/Straw]

...

Could it be that in the Old Testament, men corrupted and implemented the law beyond God’s intent?

Uh, I want to say more but..

Are you making excuses for God?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Could it be that in the Old Testament, men corrupted and implemented the law beyond God’s intent? Like Jesus taught?

It could be this and it could be that and I approach those sort of propositions on the basis that you need many thats if we are to speculate. If you are a thinker try this...imagine you are holding the opposite position ... See if you can find any cracks...and after you describe the crack to yourself change position and argue against the cracks you find .it's hard work that's why you need two of you.

I can see that you approach the bible is on a positive basis and derive positive feed back that defines the universe and motivates you to be decent and obey the wishes of a higher authority...so go for it.
Do your best that's all we can do with dignity.
Alex

 

[SetiAlpha6]

It could be this and it could be that and I approach those sort of propositions on the basis that you need many thats if we are to speculate. If you are a thinker try this...imagine you are holding the opposite position ... See if you can find any cracks...and after you describe the crack to yourself change position and argue against the cracks you find .it's hard work that's why you need two of you.

I can see that you approach the bible is on a positive basis and derive positive feed back that defines the universe and motivates you to be decent and obey the wishes of a higher authority...so go for it.
Do your best that's all we can do with dignity.
Alex

Alex, I really love your approach!
That is a great way to try and figure things out.

I am nobody!

I look at the cracks. In the Bible, in Atheism, in Christian Theology, the wicked teachings of Calvinism, and more. There are problems in all of them. You know this!

I really did watch your videos! I took notes and I compared the theory to what I already know about the “Roman” Catholic Church. And to the Bible itself.

For the attention of a lovely sweet girl, years ago, I read a 600 page Catholic Catechism book she gave me. She was my dream girl. I wanted to know if Catholicism was true, and she was a strong motivator. I tried to and wanted to accept it, but I compared it with the Bible itself and found it to be a corruption of Christianity.

There are very brilliant insights in those films you provided, concerning the creation of the “Roman Catholic Church.” Very insightful!

I am partially with you on that piece of the puzzle. The Catholic Church is a wicked organization and always has been! And I will forever be grateful to you for sharing these films with me!

But in my opinion, and you are very welcome to have your own opinion, these films do not explain the existence of Christianity itself.

In a similar way, we could discuss how Mormonism was created. But that would also have no bearing on how Christianity came into existence either.

Does any of this make any sense?

 

[Beer w/Straw]

I am nobody!

But, a nobody that makes excuses for God?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

God told Moses to bring the Israelites "the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey" (Exodus 3:17). I don't see where it mentions Midian.

“... when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall worship God at this mountain.”

In Exodus 3:12 (above) God tells Moses to bring the people from Egypt to “this mountain”. Back to the same Mountain Moses was on.

That Mountain was in the area where Moses lived.
Moses lived in Midian.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

But, a nobody that makes excuses for God?

I hope you are somebody Beer w/Straw!

By the way, do you always use a Straw?

If not, how do you decide when to and when not to use a Straw?

If so, what size? Thin or wider?

What Color is it?

Paper, or plastic, or metal?

You have probably been asked all of these questions many many times before, by others.

I have been wondering about this for a little while now!

Finally got the courage to ask.

 

[sideshowbob]

“... when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall worship God at this mountain.”

In Exodus 3:12 (above) God tells Moses to bring the people from Egypt to “this mountain”. Back to the same Mountain Moses was on.

That Mountain was in the area where Moses lived.
Moses lived in Midian.

As I pointed out, God told Moses to take the Israelites "unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites" (Exodus 3:8) It doesn't say to take them to that mountain.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

You have probably been asked all of these questions many many times before, by others.

Actually, no.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

But that would also have no bearing on how Christianity came into existence either.

The relevance...
It is my understanding that the Catholic church was the only Christianity until recent times and all Christianity came from split offs from the church. IE Christianity is the church. . So it is always part of the deal.
The church in early times was the only Christianity as I understand so to ask how Christianity came into existence is the same as asking how the church came into existence and the answer is via Roman invention.
Alex