Destroy organised religion?

[Hapsburg]

doesnt see the inherent value in religion..

Va-value? Value??!! The shattering of human unity? The division of our species into little factions, parties, camps, and groups? The destruction of millions of humans for thier beliefs? Genocide? Potential nuclear war? These are you fucking value??!! :bugeye:

 

[Thomas]

case in point... a stupid atheist... who doesnt see the inherent value in religion..
and would instead.. probubly promote its demise..

why??? cause it makes them feel bad... about sin and stuff.

ha. you should feel bad... and if nothing else.. you need religion.. so as to give you something to oppose...

for if there was no religions at all.. humanism.. would replace it.. and so again..
you would find ways to oppose it.

that is all i ever see from atheists... they oppose for the sake of opposing..

and of course.... they all launch into tyrads about science....
science they are not prepared to discuss in detail. they cant..

they just take the word of atheistic scientists who put out big bang in the first place.

and im sorry, but.... thats called faith...

you dont investigate for yourself.. and you just buy what they sell you.

its the same as religion... your just buying a different package.. with less wrapping.

-MT

MT- "stupid" athiests don't oppose for the sake of opposing. it's more like we oppose because we have a realistic view of everything. i will never believe humans were poofed here by some diety because there is more evidence of evolution then creationism. Believing in god is the easy, simple explination of how everything came to be. Evolution is alot more complex then the whole garden of eden thing, evolution took discovery, not some crazy guy talking to a burning bush. so in all actuality, athiests are'nt that stupid, as you also said, it's more like theists are the "less intelgente ones'"

Thomas

 

[duendy]

Interesting, it would definitely be difficult to organise anything under the 'sacrement' (in my experience anyway), thus keeping religion and spirituality personal.

Where can I get the DVD?

of couurse you can organize. but not fall into the trap of fossilization, which is what orgs become without insight and spontaneity

and people here claiming we should punish and exile people for believing in the 'supernatural'....jeeezus. that is fascism. you cannot do it that way, and havemissed thepoint entirely

you people who call yourselves athiests and follow the scientific materialism are JUST as fundamentally religious as one of the followers you have contempt for. but of course you dont realize this do you?? of course you dont ---same as the rligious fundametalist dont know it. but its tru anyhow. you try and impose YOUR world view on all under th impression it will 'make a better world.. but really it is oppression. just like t church was forcin its dogma dwn everyone's throats

you have to dig that pople are NOT just superficial glorified computers which is what your materialist dogma asserts. people have DEPTH.

what literalist religions do is manipulate this human need of deep expression, and distort it for their own authoritarian needs. and what you lot do is totaly dismis itand in many cases pathologize it

you and they are two oppressive forces which needs must look at themSELVES ad resolve rather tan try and 'put right' cause you will just make tings MUCH worse

 

[Singularity]

the last thing secular atheists want... is a direct violent clash with the religious...
-MT

I am a smart Atheist, I have learnt to test people whether they are Atheist or not. So noone around me is aware about my Atheism. I do all the religious activities to keep my friends hearts intact.

So tell me Mr. Mozes how will U target me ?

Dust to Dust, Ashes to Moshesh.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

/// "stupid" athiests ............ it's more like we oppose because we have a realistic view of everything. ///
BASED ON TAUGHT THEORY...

///i will never believe humans were poofed here by some diety because there is more evidence of evolution then creationism..... ///
TRUE.. THE 1500 YEAR OLD INTERPRETATION IS FLAWED.. BUT NOT GENESIS ITSELF..

Believing in god is the easy, simple explination of how everything came to be.
NO... ITS OBVIOUSLY MUCH HARDER TO MAKE RATIONAL.. ISNT IT?

HENCE.. THE NEED FOR FAITH... you have faith.. faith in science.

so do i... i started a church dedicated to science.


-MT

 

[Thomas]

"NO... ITS OBVIOUSLY MUCH HARDER TO MAKE RATIONAL.. ISNT IT?"-MT

Yes much harder to make rational that's why i will never believe it,but it's very simple. Creationism is not hard to understand,we are taught it when we are young and will believe just about anything we hear. creationism also comes with an after life. These things are what keep creationism alive. So your rite about that. what i was saying was... religion tells you something and you believe it with no proof, like you say faith. science tells me something and i believe it because it has evidence. evolution was discovered and was studied and is real, going on as we type on sci forums, very slowly.even though creationism is practiced buy 90 something % of the united states doesn't make it real, it makes it believed to be real, by people like George W. Bush. That rite there is all the argument you need. "Ladies, and Gentile men, i'm am here to tell you about a little something i ike to call the state of the Onion... and may Muhamad bless us all." :bugeye: anyway MT i won't be back on for a while. sooo tired.

Thomas

 

[Adstar]

Theists

God (or whatever) appears directly to you in his full glory. God tells you that every organised religion in the world is wrong and that he intends to instill a true religion on the world. God has chosen you and you alone to prepare the ground and destroy organised religion, you will receive no help from God in doing this task (don't question God!) - what would be the best way this could be achieved?

Well all you would need to do is tell as many people as possible about the true Faith. As long as there is more than one believer in the true faith then you have been successful. One true religion has been established. All you need is two people to form a faith.

As for destroying false faith the best way to do that is revealing the true faith.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Thanks for playing along Crunchy Cat.

I didn't put a great deal of thought into wording the questions so I'll ask for your help - how can I put my question and avoid your objections?

I am not sure actually. This could be a starter however:

Atheists

Assume that it has been proven that organized religion is severly hindering knowledge and progress. You have been drafted onto a committee debating the best ways to find a substitute for organized religion from our society. What do you propose?

I agree, I think education on evidence-based thinking would help (could I just say education on reasoning or would that be different or not precise enough).

I didn't communicate the right interpretation... I meant for education to be a seperate item; however, they are related as you have correctly surmised. I suspect any religious study could be replaced with critical thinking / logic / reasoning coursework throughout the education process.

The ego/relationship point you made is great, I had thought along similar lines but I hadn't ben able to put is so concisely.

This is a big one. One of the huge benefits religious folks get is a really healthy and satisfying relationship with 'God'... which is their ego.

I'm assuming that your last point is regarding a change of culture so I will have to think about it for a while.

Pretty much correct. Humans have a need to relate to others on common ground and religion does it quite well... this is all about finding a substitute that is reality-based and gaining adoption of it within society.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Mosheh Thezion... your just wasting your time. no one is listening to your repetitive religious jargon

Watch this: http://arkansastonight.castpost.com/185809.html

Your like this woman. :m:

That was a great video. Acceptance without evidence was strong with that one and in the end it looks like she contradicted herself.

 

[scorpius]

To be honest though, let's bring back Hitler, give him a fine tune and set him off.
...shhhhhnell!

hes back already and resides in the White house

try to speak against him and youll be branded anti american,or enemy combatant and may end up being tortured in the Guantanamo prison and being held without acces to lawyers for ever!

 

[geeser]

I'm not an expert on human needs (but I am an anorak for facts) so I could do with a proof or link to a proof that most humans need to worship something or else we would be left with non-humans.

it's worship: to regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. such as a real father, we as humans do this to a deity, because of indoctrination(brainwashing) thus worship becomes: The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

humanity has eight basic needs they are

1) Physiological: hunger, thirst, bodily comforts, etc.;

2) Safety/security: out of danger;

3) Belonginess and Love: affiliate with others, be accepted; and (such has family, friends, groups, etc.)

4) Esteem: to achieve, be competent, gain approval and recognition.(from parents, elders, academics, and deitys)

5) Cognitive: to know, to understand, and explore;

6) Aesthetic: symmetry, order, and beauty;

7) Self-actualization: to find self-fulfillment and realize one's potential; and

8) Self-transcendence: to connect to something beyond the ego or to help others find self-fulfillment and realize their potential.

3/4 are the basic tenet for idolising and worshiping something somebody, we all have these basic needs without them we would not be human, as you said(child abuse) the two basic needs are abused when we are children, as we are to small to fight our own battles we look for protection from much stronger and wiser? people, so we believe what ever we are told(santa/the toothfairy/god) until we find out otherwise, unfortunately some people never grow up and still need the comfort blanket.

http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.html

http://sfhelp.org/02/needlevels.htm

 

[Lerxst]

Va-value? Value??!! The shattering of human unity? The division of our species into little factions, parties, camps, and groups? The destruction of millions of humans for thier beliefs? Genocide? Potential nuclear war?

Organized religion certainly exacerbates these things quite horrifically, but they would still occur without religion.

The splitting into factions and groups is really just an evolutionary necessity of our past. Chimpanzees are extremely violent and triablistic in this sense too, and they war with opposing groups without "help" from religion and the God concept. It's all about competition for resources. Take religion out of human history and we will still have war, cruelty, slavery, and genocide, because we will still hate "outsiders" - it is simply the way we evolved. I'd imagine that the wars might be less fierce and costly without religion though - after all there is no better way to convince your people to kill other people than by telling them it is God's will. Organized religion is certainly an accomplice and an accessory to many great crimes and should be held in contempt for all these things. But it is not the root cause. We are a fucked-up species, but luckily in the last couple centuries we are starting to turn a corner, maybe.

 

[KennyJC]

Assume that it has been proven that organised religion is the cause of great injustices and evil in the world and has no benefits in return. You have been drafted onto a committee debating the best ways to remove organised religion from your society - what do you propose?

Quite simple. Show the social performance of secular countries is far greater than any country where religion is dominant. Not only that, but the nature of these religious countries hair trigger nature of starting wars and setting fires to flags.

It is so easy to show to people that religion and God's are so inconsistent with each other and stem from nowhere else but the humans fondness of superstition and non-logical thinking. But if a person really wants to believe that the position of stars really makes any difference to their day, or that Jesus was born from a virgin mother... then they really are beyond help...

 

[duendy]

Quite simple. Show the social performance of secular countries is far greater than any country where religion is dominant. Not only that, but the nature of these religious countries hair trigger nature of starting wars and setting fires to flags.

me))))))what countries?

It is so easy to show to people that religion and God's are so inconsistent with each other and stem from nowhere else but the humans fondness of superstition and non-logical thinking. But if a person really wants to believe that the position of stars really makes any difference to their day, or that Jesus was born from a virgin mother... then they really are beyond help...

so you assume the full potential capacity of A human being consists of JUST being able to logically think?

 

[KennyJC]

me))))))what countries?

All/most of Western Europe, especially Scandinavia. Austrailia, Japan etc etc

so you assume the full potential capacity of A human being consists of JUST being able to logically think?

Well it's a start at least...

 

[seekeroftheway]

I have to ask people to assume for this question to stop myself from getting involved in of-topic debates.

I'm not an expert on human needs (but I am an anorak for facts) so I could do with a proof or link to a proof that most humans need to worship something or else we would be left with non-humans.

I think your proposal for a law against religious indoctrination of children is excellent - the exact details would have to be hammered out very finely to avoid violent uprising though. Perhaps starting with no religious indoctrination in schools and moving on to church and home in time. I could easily imagine a society where indoctrinating children would be considered child abuse.

I suppose a certain "proof" might be that a basic human instinct is to fear what we don't understand. As such, we understand very little. Look back at colonial days, when if you didn't go to church every sunday you were a heretic and so on. It was thought that thunder storms were the wrath of God. This is simply a label that people have placed upon things they don't understand, that they fear, so that they won't be afraid anymore. It's an explanation. Without it, there would be chaos and rioting and society would crumble.

 

[seekeroftheway]

hes back already and resides in the White house

try to speak against him and youll be branded anti american,or enemy combatant and may end up being tortured in the Guantanamo prison and being held without acces to lawyers for ever!

Aside from the whole torture thing, that sounds kinda nice...especially the lawyerlessness....that's another point we have to address, lawyers are good at their job(lying and cheating and getting someone who deserves punishment out of it[just a generalization, if anyone here is a lawyer or knows lawyers, please take no offense]). If it comes down to a legal war, there will be a LOT of skilled lawyers on the religious side. I say we hire sam fisher or the scorpion king or someone to that extent to eliminate the opposition...

 

[seekeroftheway]

Organized religion certainly exacerbates these things quite horrifically, but they would still occur without religion.

The splitting into factions and groups is really just an evolutionary necessity of our past. Chimpanzees are extremely violent and triablistic in this sense too, and they war with opposing groups without "help" from religion and the God concept. It's all about competition for resources. Take religion out of human history and we will still have war, cruelty, slavery, and genocide, because we will still hate "outsiders" - it is simply the way we evolved. I'd imagine that the wars might be less fierce and costly without religion though - after all there is no better way to convince your people to kill other people than by telling them it is God's will. Organized religion is certainly an accomplice and an accessory to many great crimes and should be held in contempt for all these things. But it is not the root cause. We are a fucked-up species, but luckily in the last couple centuries we are starting to turn a corner, maybe.

Yes, actually, that's true, look at The Iliad, they went to Troy so that Menalaus could have Helen back (poor guy, he went years without any gratification...), and so Agammemnon could have troy. He burned it to the ground in the end, oddly enough, after ten years of trying to CAPTURE it, but still, that particular war was not very religion oriented.

We aren't a fucked up species, it's a totally natural process of living things to destroy. Creation occurs in the wake of destruction, and vice versa, it's a cycle.

 

[seekeroftheway]

Quite simple. Show the social performance of secular countries is far greater than any country where religion is dominant. Not only that, but the nature of these religious countries hair trigger nature of starting wars and setting fires to flags.

It is so easy to show to people that religion and God's are so inconsistent with each other and stem from nowhere else but the humans fondness of superstition and non-logical thinking. But if a person really wants to believe that the position of stars really makes any difference to their day, or that Jesus was born from a virgin mother... then they really are beyond help...

So you hate people that believe in something, and that try and force their own beliefs on others, yet you condemn people that don't agree with you...isn't that kind of hypocritical? Every one of my friends that I've talked to have been very accurately described by their astrological sign, me included. I share a birthday with Jimmy Hendrix And Bruce Lee, and I am both an Avid musician and martial artist. So perhaps there is relevence?

Besides, without belief, society would crumble, it's what binds everyone together as one whole. If you think about it, we all believe in the same thing, we just all describe it differently. That's why there's Religions and not religion.

So I guess my solution would be find one explanation for that which everyone believes in, a new name, a new portrait, and new system all together, and unite everyone under it. There's no way everyone would just stop believing. We'd have an underground resistance on a massive scale.

 

[KennyJC]

I share a birthday with Jimmy Hendrix And Bruce Lee, and I am both an Avid musician and martial artist. So perhaps there is relevence?

Since you mentioned Jimi Hendrix, I will go easy on you. Although, I don't share my birthday with him, yet I am a musician also. Fancy that...

Besides, without belief, society would crumble, it's what binds everyone together as one whole. If you think about it, we all believe in the same thing, we just all describe it differently. That's why there's Religions and not religion.

Not sure what your mean here... I'm just talking about religion. A theist always tries to make a big deal out of the word 'belief' and apply it to non-believers with equal meaning which isn't valid.