Designer Religion

[S.A.M.]

Then, could you begin with the contradictions already mentioned?

Supernatural control over human destinies and free will?

Advocating violence in defence and a perfect creation?

One at atime :

Al-Qadr (The destiny): These are the challenges you will face in your life; you are destined for these challenges and they will test you faith and strength of character.

There is a Night of Destiny every year on the 27th day of Ramadan; when your past performances are re-assessed and your future challenges are decreed( or adjusted).

Free will is of course how you deal with the challenges that life ( i.e. God) places before you; but it is important to remember that no challenge will be greater than the strength required to face it; so if you feel you are not upto a challenge, it means you need to strengthen your faith and character.

 

[KennyJC]

How about you read the whole report?

I did read the whole report. It highlights that a significant number of people in the Muslim world support violence in defence of Islam. What do you think I missed?

Animals learn morals? What morals are they? Are some dogs more moralistic than others? I think you better examine your use of words a bit closer ....

What we call morals is in reference to behavior towards others in our society. This is no different to the animal kingdom. The way a dog learns not to shit on your carpet, or a monkey shares food with a fellow monkey who helped him obtain it.

Religion stems from superstition? If we accept your statements without you giving any evidence or reasons then that would also be akin to superstition.
For instance your argument was just this.....

When people think the sun is God, they are being superstitious. When a farmer thinks the rains have failed because God is angry, he is being superstitious. The origins of religion are no less rooted in superstition than they are in present day.

Congratulations - you just gave an argument for the abolishment of atoms, electrons and people's minds.

No, the discovery of atoms and electrons was found by scientific hypothesis.

As for bettering society you see that a large percentage of charitable organisations have a theistic foundation. Its not exactly clear what the damage being done by a notion of religion in society that you are alluding to.

I think with modern secularism, charity would continue just fine.

 

[(Q)]

One at atime :

Al-Qadr (The destiny): These are the challenges you will face in your life; you are destined for these challenges and they will test you faith and strength of character.

There is a Night of Destiny every year on the 27th day of Ramadan; when your past performances are re-assessed and your future challenges are decreed( or adjusted).

Free will is of course how you deal with the challenges that life ( i.e. God) places before you; but it is important to remember that no challenge will be greater than the strength required to face it; so if you feel you are not upto a challenge, it means you need to strengthen your faith and character.

9:116. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He controls life and death. You have none beside GOD as a Lord and Master.

10:3. Your only Lord is GOD; the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. He controls all matters. There is no intercessor, except in accordance with His will. Such is GOD your Lord. You shall worship Him. Would you not take heed?

10:31. Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Who controls all the hearing and the eyesight? Who produces the living from the dead, and the dead from the living? Who is in control of all things?" They would say, "GOD." Say, "Why then do you not observe the commandments?"

10:34. Say, "Can any of your idols initiate creation, then repeat it?" Say, "GOD initiates the creation, then repeats it."

# 13:31. Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled.GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.

 

[S.A.M.]

9:116. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He controls life and death. You have none beside GOD as a Lord and Master.

10:3. Your only Lord is GOD; the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. He controls all matters. There is no intercessor, except in accordance with His will. Such is GOD your Lord. You shall worship Him. Would you not take heed?

10:31. Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Who controls all the hearing and the eyesight? Who produces the living from the dead, and the dead from the living? Who is in control of all things?" They would say, "GOD." Say, "Why then do you not observe the commandments?"

10:34. Say, "Can any of your idols initiate creation, then repeat it?" Say, "GOD initiates the creation, then repeats it."

# 13:31. Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled.GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.

OK I have this translation of 13:31 ( which is why translation is not acceptable by itself in Islam):

And if there had been a Quran with which mountains could be moved (from their places) or the earth could be cloven asunder, or the dead could be made to speak ( it would not have been other than this Quran). But the decision of all things is certainly with Allah. Have not then those who believed yet known that had Allah willed, he could have guided all mankind? And a disaster will not cease to strike thiose who disbelieved (or) because of their deeds, or it (the disaster) settles close to their home, until the promise of Allah comes to pass. Caertainly, Allah does not break His promise.

 

[S.A.M.]

9:116. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He controls life and death. You have none beside GOD as a Lord and Master.

Verily Allah! Unto him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, He gives life and He causes death. And besides Allah, you have neither any wali ( guardian/protector) nor any helper.

10:3. Your only Lord is GOD; the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. He controls all matters. There is no intercessor, except in accordance with His will. Such is GOD your Lord. You shall worship Him. Would you not take heed?

Surely your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six daysand then rose over the Throne, disposing the affair of all things.No intercessor can plead with Him except after His Leave. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him; then will you not remember?

10:31. Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Who controls all the hearing and the eyesight? Who produces the living from the dead, and the dead from the living? Who is in control of all things?" They would say, "GOD." Say, "Why then do you not observe the commandments?"

Say ( O Muhammed) "Who provides for you from the sky and the earth?Or who owns hearing and sight?Or who brings out the living from the dead and brings out the dead from the living? And who disposes the affairs?" They will say" Allah!" Say: "Will you not then be afraid of Allah's punishment?"

10:34. Say, "Can any of your idols initiate creation, then repeat it?" Say, "GOD initiates the creation, then repeats it."

Say: "Is there of your ( Allah's so-called) partners one that originates creation and repeats it?" Say: "Allah originates creation and then He repeats it. Then how are you deluded?"

 

[lightgigantic]

Since atoms, electrons and people's minds have been detected and observed while fairies have not, I'm puzzled as to your conclusion?

Now you have to prove that god is in the same catergory as fairies - a bit more difficult since there there is tons of literature by people qualified in the field of religion who attest to detecting god's presence.

The point is that atoms and molecules are only perceivable by people who are trained in the field - even if you stuck your eyeball on a microscope you wouldn't know what you were looking at unless you had been trained in knowledge - and what to speak of electrons - electrons are invisible and are imaged by examining the trail they leave when passing through a field of gas - in otherwords electrons , on top of only being perceivable by qualified persons, are only visible by their symptoms

This probably explains why more people believe in atoms and god than fairies, even though it may appear that faries and atoms have quite a lot in common

 

[lightgigantic]

When people think the sun is God, they are being superstitious. .

Why? If they think god is the sustainer and the sun actually sustains them. Even a scientist would have a hard time if the sun suddenly went out.

When a farmer thinks the rains have failed because God is angry, he is being superstitious. .

Why? Its not like rain is dependant on human ingenuity or can be turned on or off like a water faucet, and if there is no food grain what are you going to eat? Nuts and bolts?

If you want to say that the sun and the rain are incomplete impressions of god I will agree, after all religion is the pursuit of the supreme absolute so approaching the supreme absolute in one's perceivable world is a humble beginning.

The origins of religion are no less rooted in superstition than they are in present day..

What you call superstition is actually common sense at the limitations of human capacity - of course there are plenty of wild claims about what science will be able to do in the future, but if you want to talk about science as it exists in science, you have to agree that the sun and rain operate on superior principles that humans cannot interfere with - otherwise there would be no such things as drought and flood.

No, the discovery of atoms and electrons was found by scientific hypothesis..

But the point is that if most people have not seen god therefore god does not exist you can say the same thing about atoms- how many people in the world have actually directly perceived an atom? Just a few scientists. In the same way just a few saintly people have perceived god. Its obvious that there is a process to perceiving subtle phenomena - the ability to apply that process is what distinguishes a qualified from an unqualified person - all the evidence you have laid that "no one has seen god" is only pertinent to unqualified persons who

 

[SnakeLord]

Now you have to prove that god is in the same catergory as fairies

They're both fictional. That's a category.

a bit more difficult since there there is tons of literature by people qualified in the field of religion who attest to detecting god's presence

Interesting. Hear voices and you're mentally ill, call that voice god and you're "qualified".

You go on to say that it's "obvious there is a process to perceiving subtle phenomena". How is such thing "obvious", and how do you know people have this process, rather than just a good imagination? Further to which, it could simply be argued that theres an "obvious process to perceiving subtle phenomena" with regards to fairies as well - and thus your earlier statement falls apart and the two remain in the same category.

 

[wsionynw]

Now you have to prove that god is in the same catergory as fairies - a bit more difficult since there there is tons of literature by people qualified in the field of religion who attest to detecting god's presence.

That's a good one! So what instruments did these qualified persons use to detect God's presence, and how was this recorded for others to observe? Please, give me some information so that I can detect God's presence for myself. :m:

 

[wsionynw]

If religon were not to exist as a integral part of human society, then we as humans would not be able to function as a collective tool in building order into a civilization.

Go tell that to the extinct people of Easter Island.

 

[Vega]

god is an invention of mankind to compensate for our mortal demise as a species.

 

[lightgigantic]

They're both fictional. That's a category..

You are yet to actually put up an argument why god is fictional - you haven't given any reasons beyond "God is in your imagination - I just proved it becasue I just said it was in your imagination"

Interesting. Hear voices and you're mentally ill, call that voice god and you're "qualified". .

Again, another wild statement - I don't think you have compiled an exhaustive list of personalities who have attested to a firm conviction of god's existence - and frankly nor do I think you are likely too -

Off the top of your head, tell us how many saintly persons, philosophers or even scientists (in other words people who hold credible positions in fields of knowledge, whether historical or contemporary) you can think of who attest to a firm conviction of th e presence of god??
- exactly who is on the list that you draw from to make your claims?
- it appears to me that you are just running on cliche and stereotype
- its just like a person using a bespectacled skinny old man with fuzzy hair and a lab coat as the prototype for contemporary science.

Snake man, the problem of discussion is that you have no idea of what the process is to approach god, and you just imagine it is something like sitting on your butt and reading books (which is the way that most mundane knowledge is acquired) - This is equivelant as squinting at the sky to make atronomical calculations. Spiritual life is actually dependent on practical application

Being freed from attachment, fear and anger, being fully absorbed in Me and taking refuge in Me, many, many persons in the past became purified by knowledge of Me—and thus they all attained transcendental love for Me.
-BG 4.10

In otherwords if you are attached to temporary things, fearful (symptom of ignorance) and angry (mature stage of lust) you have not moved an inch in the name of spiritual life and your attempt to know god is like a moth's attempt to understand the sun.

You go on to say that it's "obvious there is a process to perceiving subtle phenomena". How is such thing "obvious", and how do you know people have this process, rather than just a good imagination? Further to which, it could simply be argued that theres an "obvious process to perceiving subtle phenomena" with regards to fairies as well - and thus your earlier statement falls apart and the two remain in the same category.

How do I know there is a process? Well what do you think scripture is?
If you don't apply the process you don't get the result. In otherwords if you begin from the very onset with the conviction that you will not be submissive to scripture (or saintly people) then you won't get the result of the knowledge that it offers - just like if you go to university with the conviction that all the text books are uselss and the lecturers don't know what they are talking about, you won't get the result because you don't apply the process.
I don't know what process you are alluding to to perceive faries, except perhaps to take lots of hallucinogens, which would be obviously quite different to processes reccommended in scripture

 

[lightgigantic]

That's a good one! So what instruments did these qualified persons use to detect God's presence, and how was this recorded for others to observe? Please, give me some information so that I can detect God's presence for myself. :m:

wsion,

you make the error of thinking that god is something that you can dig up in an archeological site or slide under a microscope.
Suppose you wanted to directly perceive George Bush, how would you go about it?

 

[LiveInFaith]

The instruments are faith, sincere intention, and determination.

 

[S.A.M.]

Neither is it aligned, which was my point.

You have not been reading my links


Islam and Science:

http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?TaxonomyTypeID=106&TaxonomySubTypeID=121

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/arabic/catalog_tb.html



As to the Prophet and his beliefs, these are his most well known quotes:

“Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave”

"Seeking knowledge is a duty upon every Muslim, male and female."

“Four things support the world: the learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the good, and the valor of the brave”

“The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr”

“He who leaveth home in search of knowledge, walketh in the path of God”

“One hour's meditation on the work of the Creator is better than seventy years of prayer”

“The most excellent jihad (struggle) is that for the conquest of self”

“If a man finds himself with bread in both hands, he should exchange one loaf for some flowers of the narcissus, because the loaf feeds the body, but the the flowers feed the soul”

“No man is a true believer unless he desireth for his brother that which he desireth for himself”

“He dieth not who giveth life to learning”

“All actions are judged by the motive prompting them”

“Love of the world is the root of all evil”

“Women are the twin halves of men”

“Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots”

“The creation is as God's family; for its sustenance is from Him: therefore the most beloved unto God is the person who doeth good to God's family”

“Philosophy is the stray camel of the faithful; take hold of it wherever ye come across it”

“Especially if you are well-to-do, see that no one goes hungry or naked”

“Give the laborer his wage before his perspiration be dry”

“God enjoins you to treat women well, for they are your mothers, daughters, aunts”

“Who does something, then he or she must do it presicely!”

“That person is not a perfect Muslim who eateth his fill, and leaveth his neighbors hungry”

 

[KennyJC]

Why? If they think god is the sustainer and the sun actually sustains them. Even a scientist would have a hard time if the sun suddenly went out.

Except the Sun won't suddenly go out. At least not at a point that is different to the time-frame estimated by scientists for when the hydrogen supply runs out. Oh and an intelligent being who guides the Sun IS superstition.

Why? Its not like rain is dependant on human ingenuity or can be turned on or off like a water faucet, and if there is no food grain what are you going to eat? Nuts and bolts?

What does this have to do with an intelligent being guiding the weather?

If you want to say that the sun and the rain are incomplete impressions of god I will agree, after all religion is the pursuit of the supreme absolute so approaching the supreme absolute in one's perceivable world is a humble beginning.

Well if they are incomplete impressions then I'm afraid today's impression in religion remain totally inadequate as they are rooted in superstition and not fact.

I will reply to these two quotes later if I have time...

But the point is that if most people have not seen god therefore god does not exist you can say the same thing about atoms- how many people in the world have actually directly perceived an atom? Just a few scientists. In the same way just a few saintly people have perceived god. Its obvious that there is a process to perceiving subtle phenomena - the ability to apply that process is what distinguishes a qualified from an unqualified person - all the evidence you have laid that "no one has seen god" is only pertinent to unqualified persons who

What you call superstition is actually common sense at the limitations of human capacity - of course there are plenty of wild claims about what science will be able to do in the future, but if you want to talk about science as it exists in science, you have to agree that the sun and rain operate on superior principles that humans cannot interfere with - otherwise there would be no such things as drought and flood.

 

[(Q)]

Now you have to prove that god is in the same catergory as fairies - a bit more difficult since there there is tons of literature by people qualified in the field of religion who attest to detecting god's presence.

They are lying or delusional or both, of course.

The point is that atoms and molecules are only perceivable by people who are trained in the field - even if you stuck your eyeball on a microscope you wouldn't know what you were looking at unless you had been trained in knowledge - and what to speak of electrons - electrons are invisible and are imaged by examining the trail they leave when passing through a field of gas - in otherwords electrons , on top of only being perceivable by qualified persons, are only visible by their symptoms

Yet, they are detectable and observable while gods and fairies are not.

This probably explains why more people believe in atoms and god than fairies, even though it may appear that faries and atoms have quite a lot in common

No, you're confused between the observable universe and invisible non-entities.

 

[(Q)]

You have not been reading my links

Islam and Science:

Still trying to align Islam and science? In vain, I see.

Sorry, none of those quotes have any relevance to alignment, unless you can clearly show they do.

 

[S.A.M.]

Further to the point of science in Islam.

Is it such that one can make a distinct connection between the science of the time and Islamic intervention? In other words, were the additions to science by Muslims of that era a direct result of the teachings of Islam, were they inspired and under process of some Islamic tenet, were they revealed by Allah directly as dictated by their authors? A number of scenarios present themselves as to how these discoveries could have come about, and how they were claimed to have come about.

Interestingly enough, we find that much of those mathematical discoveries were from the works of the early Greeks and that much of medical discoveries were a result of the teachings from the original physicians in Muslim societies; Christians.

Perhaps it was such that those Muslims involved in the discoveries were not so interested in Islamic teachings at all and considered them nonsense, but were simply 'playing the game' so to speak, to further their goals in science under a strict regime of mysticism?

For example, from the link provided, Ibn Sina had studied the Quran as a child, but was well emersed into science by the age of 17 and devouted his life to it. He was a brilliant Russian living in an Islamic state, conquered by Muslims. Why would the mysticisms of Arabs be of any interest to him?

'Science' and 'Islam' in the same sentence need be analyzed carefully for connectivity.

Here are some links which explore your questions:



http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/nasr.html

http://www.omarfoundation.org/Culture/History Science.htm

http://www.ishim.net/articles.htm

 

[S.A.M.]

Still trying to align Islam and science? In vain, I see.

Sorry, none of those quotes have any relevance to alignment, unless you can clearly show they do.

Maybe you could clarify what exactly you mean by alignment?

I'm thinking of alignment in terms of being parallel; i.e. co-existing, but I'm guessing that's not what you are trying to ask.