Designer Religion

[(Q)]

Islam is not against science; which is all I wanted to indicate.

Neither is it aligned, which was my point.

 

[S.A.M.]

They were every bit a theist when they went in, and they'll be every bit a theist when they re-offend and return.

I doubt they were thinking of God while committing their crimes

Of course, but what were their priorities in the first place? They wouldn't be standing in front of a judge notwithstanding.

Exactly

Yes, but it's those who base their decision making process on their religious beliefs that is disturbing, and with so many contradicting and misinterpretive beliefs to make it all the worse.

as compared to.....?

The humanity that has been governed and dictated entirely by theist based decision making processes. When has the world ever been run with the interest of humanity as its priority?

Never; its against human nature.

Clearly a case in which the guidelines failed as guidelines. And of course, a religion is not a religion if it advocates violence for any reason. Islam does so knowingly and blatantly, stating that people will act violent regardless of the guidelines. That would be admittance to having flaws in the original design of Allah's universe. It would also facilitate the need to have distinct societies other than Islamic states, else why the need to defend oneself? From other Muslims, perhaps?

So you would advocate, no defence is the best defence?

The whole thing smacks of human creation, not devine.

Thea is being maligned here...

 

[(Q)]

I doubt they were thinking of God while committing their crimes

Unless they were doing so in the name of their gods. Where have I heard that one before?

as compared to.....?

Reason and rationale, grounded in reality.

Never; its against human nature.

That makes no sense.

So you would advocate, no defence is the best defence?

I never said that. All I was pointing out is that Islam was created from the thoughts of man, not gods, else what need for defence?

Thea is being maligned here...

How so? If Allah created everything and his message was peace for all people, why the need to include defensive and violent alternatives?

Did he err in his creation?

 

[S.A.M.]

Unless they were doing so in the name of their gods. Where have I heard that one before?

So all people who are in prison are there for religious reasons?

Come on, you can do better than that.

Reason and rationale, grounded in reality.

.......if only everyone had an IQ of 160.......

I never said that. All I was pointing out is that Islam was created from the thoughts of man, not gods, else what need for defence?

as against attack....?

How so? If Allah created everything and his message was peace for all people, why the need to include defensive and violent alternatives?

Did he err in his creation?

You live on the same planet as I do; do you think his creation should have free will or would you rather have all your decisions made for you?

PS. Thea Devine is a writer ( it was a joke!)

 

[(Q)]

So all people who are in prison are there for religious reasons?

Some perhaps are, not all of course. But they certainly claimed to believe in gods when they went in, regardless of the reason.

.......if only everyone had an IQ of 160.......

All the is required is education, instead of dogma.

as against attack....?

You seem to be missing the point entirely, either unwittingly or purposely. What would be the need to defend oneself in a world of Islam. It should be absolutely nothing, right? Then, what of the need for putting defensive violence as tenets of the religion?

You live on the same planet as I do; do you think his creation should have free will or would you rather have all your decisions made for you?

The question of free will in religion is a moot point, it simply doesn't exist under supernatural control.

PS. Thea Devine is a writer ( it was a joke!)

Sorry, missed that one.

 

[S.A.M.]

Some perhaps are, not all of course. But they certainly claimed to believe in gods when they went in, regardless of the reason.

But I would claim them ignorant of the philosophy of their religion; but its interesting, wy would they claim to be theists?
Were there (dis)advantages to beiing (a)theists?

All the is required is education, instead of dogma.

I agree that education is important; I'm all for more and better education.

You seem to be missing the point entirely, either unwittingly or purposely. What would be the need to defend oneself in a world of Islam. It should be absolutely nothing, right? Then, what of the need for putting defensive violence as tenets of the religion?

Well I'm not doing it purposely so maybe I'm not getting what you are asking; like I've said before, most of the verses which relate to violence were revealed when the Prophet and his followers were fighting the people who were trying to kill them; the Prophet was unsure whether it was right to kill them because they were People of the book and the verses told him that it was in self defence, he was fighting for his life and his religion so yes, he could.

Am I missing something here?

The question of free will in religion is a moot point, it simply doesn't exist under supernatural control.

But everyone has it nonetheless; we are always free to choose; the consequences may be unpleasant but the choice is ours. Ask any woman.

Sorry, missed that one.

Ya, you need to loosen up once in a while....

 

[(Q)]

But I would claim them ignorant of the philosophy of their religion; but its interesting, wy would they claim to be theists?
Were there (dis)advantages to beiing (a)theists?

Nope, it was merely statistical information of religious preference.

I agree that education is important; I'm all for more and better education.

Great! However, it must also be applied in order to work.

Well I'm not doing it purposely so maybe I'm not getting what you are asking; like I've said before, most of the verses which relate to violence were revealed when the Prophet and his followers were fighting the people who were trying to kill them; the Prophet was unsure whether it was right to kill them because they were People of the book and the verses told him that it was in self defence, he was fighting for his life and his religion so yes, he could.

Am I missing something here?

Of course, the whole free will/supernatural control thingy. Can't have both.

It also admittance to flaws in the "perfect" design created by Allah. Do you remember me mentioning contradictions? Don't you see that as blatantly contradictive?

But everyone has it nonetheless; we are always free to choose; the consequences may be unpleasant but the choice is ours. Ask any woman.

Cute. But of course, if we have free will, then there are no gods controlling our destinies, as was claimed by Muhammad.

 

[S.A.M.]

Nope, it was merely statistical information of religious preference.



Great! However, it must also be applied in order to work.



Of course, the whole free will/supernatural control thingy. Can't have both.

It also admittance to flaws in the "perfect" design created by Allah. Do you remember me mentioning contradictions? Don't you see that as blatantly contradictive?



Cute. But of course, if we have free will, then there are no gods controlling our destinies, as was claimed by Muhammad.

Hmm I think we are back to philosophical differences again; I see no incompatibility with having a God who gives me free will and you do.

I guess because I had the same thing with my parents? Do pretty much as you like, these are the rules which it would be nice if you did not break, but aside from a few rants on both sides, not much to complain about.

I guess that would be idea of God; maybe its...no wait you don't believe in God

How can we resolve this?

Seems like a stalemate to me.

 

[KennyJC]

Are they; were they attacked? Was the religion in danger? From who? how? why?

Did the innocent civilians who were killed have anything to do with the religion AT ALL?

You are thinking like a terrorist.

Why don't you look at that url I gave you and you will see exactly what reason terrorists give you.

Still, it is nice you can ignore all of the barbaric quotes within the Quran. You are a fraud.

 

[S.A.M.]

Why don't you look at that url I gave you and you will see exactly what reason terrorists give you.

Still, it is nice you can ignore all of the barbaric quotes within the Quran. You are a fraud.

Thanks; nice talking to you too;

I'm glad you found the terrorists more convincing.

Obviously the <1% of people who are fundamentalist Islamists can speak more clearly to you than the 99% who are not.

I wonder why?

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Hey everyone.

Just an observation. I think we've gotten all the answers we're going to get here. Clearly there are extremeists in every faith who will interpret the writings to suit them. If that means killing infidels by jet-missile, or killing doctors who abort a ball of cells, so be it. There are also enlightened moderates who will mentally adjust the writings to agree more with their modern moral sense.

But isn't that the whole problem here? Looking to one instance of a book, written thousands of years ago, as your immutable, eternal source of wisdom and guidance? Can the quran or the bible ever incorporate the findings of sociobiology or other human behavioral sciences?

The challenge I think is to bring ALL one's knowledge and values to the process of understanding. Discerning the "gold" from the "crap" is very difficult in a book like the Bible. There IS much crap (as Kenny has quoted). However, even in the worst, most bloodthirsty verses, there may be a valuable principle that the author is trying to convey, that is worth digging for.

St.Augustine believed that the most difficult verses were the best, as wrestling with them inflamed his desire to understand and made him think and evaluate his own beliefs. However, for me, I just ignore the bits that don't speak to me directly, and await their elucidation at some future time.

Can the theists here even remotely understand why we atheist/free-thinkers find this intolerable?

...and why many atheists reject religion as "dangerous and deluded". It seems to bring out the worst OR the best in people. What makes the difference? Is it passion vs. fanaticism.

 

[KennyJC]

Obviously the <1% of people who are fundamentalist Islamists can speak more clearly to you than the 99% who are not.

Huh? Do you even have any idea of the scale of terrorism or the support of terrorism in the Muslim world?

Take a look at this website and you will see that quite a bit more than "<1%" support terrorist tactics... And that's not even counting countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc..:
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=814

I'm finding the length you will go to defend this barbaric religion rather sickening.

 

[(Q)]

Hmm I think we are back to philosophical differences again; I see no incompatibility with having a God who gives me free will and you do.

If you have free will, then a god cannot control your destiny If a god controls your destiny, you have no free will.

How can we resolve this?

Seems like a stalemate to me.

I take it you don't wish to discuss the contradictions of your religion?

 

[Vega]

Has anyone ever considered religon to be a "safe switch" seperating us humans from other species on this world? Is is just because we cannot come to terms with our own mortality, so we throughout history have invented religons as a means of giving us a sense of accomplishment in our short life span to compensate for the mortal burdens of everyday life . The whole concept of after life or immortality has been written into most religon's dogma as a ultimate reward for following and accepting their faith.

If religon were not to exist as a integral part of human society, then we as humans would not be able to function as a collective tool in building order into a civilization.

 

[S.A.M.]

If you have free will, then a god cannot control your destiny If a god controls your destiny, you have no free will.



I take it you don't wish to discuss the contradictions of your religion?

Go ahead, I'm all yours!

 

[S.A.M.]

Huh? Do you even have any idea of the scale of terrorism or the support of terrorism in the Muslim world?

Take a look at this website and you will see that quite a bit more than "<1%" support terrorist tactics... And that's not even counting countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc..:
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=814

I'm finding the length you will go to defend this barbaric religion rather sickening.

You are right! I don't !! Thanks for sharing!!!

How about you read the whole report?
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

 

[KennyJC]

If religon were not to exist as a integral part of human society, then we as humans would not be able to function as a collective tool in building order into a civilization.

Not true. Animals learn relative morals based on how social they are. If they didn't then there would be chaos and wouldn't be able to live in a group.

In human terms, religion stems from superstition as we start asking questions and when we don't have answers invent sky fairies. We also learn of our own mortality which doesn't go down well with many people. In any practical sense, it's not required to form a functioning society and today, we would be better off without it.

 

[lightgigantic]

Not true. Animals learn relative morals based on how social they are. If they didn't then there would be chaos and wouldn't be able to live in a group.

In human terms, religion stems from superstition as we start asking questions and when we don't have answers invent sky fairies. We also learn of our own mortality which doesn't go down well with many people. In any practical sense, it's not required to form a functioning society and today, we would be better off without it.

Animals learn morals? What morals are they? Are some dogs more moralistic than others? I think you better examine your use of words a bit closer ....

Religion stems from superstition? If we accept your statements without you giving any evidence or reasons then that would also be akin to superstition.
For instance your argument was just this.....

It has been revealed by literature studies that there were some cultures who at some times upheld the existence of fairies. Apparently nobody has seen these fairies - this indicates that if most people at most times can not see something it is false - Congratulations - you just gave an argument for the abolishment of atoms, electrons and people's minds.

As for bettering society you see that a large percentage of charitable organisations have a theistic foundation. Its not exactly clear what the damage being done by a notion of religion in society that you are alluding to.

 

[(Q)]

Go ahead, I'm all yours!

Then, could you begin with the contradictions already mentioned?

Supernatural control over human destinies and free will?

Advocating violence in defence and a perfect creation?

 

[(Q)]

It has been revealed by literature studies that there were some cultures who at some times upheld the existence of fairies. Apparently nobody has seen these fairies - this indicates that if most people at most times can not see something it is false - Congratulations - you just gave an argument for the abolishment of atoms, electrons and people's minds.

Since atoms, electrons and people's minds have been detected and observed while fairies have not, I'm puzzled as to your conclusion?