Denial of Evolution VI.
- Thread starter garbonzo
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Bringing to mind nonliving things which exhibit pattern signature - the Giant's Causeway, snowflakes, crystalline materials in general, molecules in general...
In other words, the Creator-Deity hasn't put the mark of spontaneous macro-divergence onto His bugs, whether through DNA or by a wave of the wand. But then if that's true ID can't be true. Damn. There went the next 10 pages, right down the drain.
Prima facie, Jan is in agreement with you on this.
I have done my research, plus, a biology class is not going to instantly promote anyone to the level of biologists, or to the standard of those who have studied biology, and biologists for years. Are you on that level?
Alot of people accept darwinian evolution, but have a poor fund of knowledge regarding the subject. What is that if not ''blind-faith''?
Do you know the difference between faith and belief?
jan.
It's the best thing that could happen (taking biology) to a person who believes in supernatural creation, to study the Artisan's works with a fine tooth comb, and clear some of the fog surrounding the question of what the Creator-Deity did and did not do.
It's knowledge, even if the person only recalls the conclusions. Apparently they remember that the logic was sound, even if they're unable to repeat it.
How about knowledge - facts, evidence, and the valid logic that assembles them into a truthful conclusion.
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No, but it's an excellent start.
"Poor knowledge" does not equal "no knowledge." You likely don't know too much about nuclear fusion, but you probably accept that our Sun runs via fusion.
Faith is belief with no proof at all.
What's wrong with believing things for no other reason than because you want to? Mostly nothing, unless your beliefs actually matter in decision making, like whether we control CO[sup]2[/sup] emissions to reverse global warming, or whether the things we teach our children about our origins are supported by evidence. I think in general, aligning one's beliefs about the world with what we observe about the world is important.
Gold is siderophilic.
Biodegradable Epistemologies Of Total Counterintuitivity Hated- B.E.O.T.C.H
Incorrect they are still yet to assess or address the main point. What we have here is a classic example of two nails sticking out. One of which is about to become a hammer. I can compliment Rpenners knowledge all day to reverse the criticism he already gains and has dealt with, yet there are many here for that reason. But it is still the assumptions made by moderators like James R who Officially and Originally banned myself for "posting Rubbish" not against any forum rules or regulations which I have read many times creating multiple accounts. I have my own learning processes and have contributed much to the knowledge and understanding of individuals. I have allowed many people to overcome the "learning and communication disabilities" they display by encouraging them. Since the first ban any and every moderator or person who has identified me has misconstrued my words to impart their own assumptions. Much like Hitler did with the words of Neitzsche to justify the killing of Jewish people. Once more Fraggle Rocker has been aware recently of my presence and much like any person who has "perceived my words as insults" has disliked them because of the "near truths" they assume. You become angry at truth as some unknown individual appears to force himself into the greater pictures encompassing science today. When overall this site should be proud it has taken an uneducated man and allowed him to uphold some sort of understanding in today world. That in itself is what makes me angry. That you have educated me then cast me out. You have said things that provide permission to reach so far and taken it away. It only insults the teaching being done here away from academics and lecture by the very basis in the power of discussion!
Ask before banning me again how many will attest to these notions.
Still I am not here to challenge the way things are done here I just wish to expedite the experimental results we have already gained by introducing "the next step" after all our goals have been accomplished and we know absolutely everything the human mind can perceive from our worldly environment.
On the off chance I have been misconstrued as a person who is in fact an inept "troll" as you say. My names have been: Moose1989, Neitzschehimself, Einsteinhimself, Daybreak, EnlighteneDone, M00seToday, Highone, Ananymousse, and possibly a couple other not on the ban list. My freedom of speech has been impeded but the inevitable is impossible for me to discount.
The problem I see is upon imagination and reality. We consider one false and the other quite real.
You can not have it this way! They are either both ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY TRUE! or they are both absolutely and completely false! I am not asking you to choose which one to believe or even Gain "Proof" of now. I am asking for permission to truly be myself and continue my conversations to their ends.
For me the two are symbiotic and I am going to give you the best definition of the two that I have read so far. I had read this some time back and thought it explained it much better and clearer than I could.
This is the difference between belief and faith. We may have lots of beliefs about how we’re supposed to live our lives, but if we’re not doing it, we don’t have faith. Think of the sets of values you believe in and compare them to how you live your life. I may believe that Jesus said to sell all my possessions and give to the poor, but the fact of the matter is that I haven’t actually done that. I don’t have faith in that area. End of story.
As you can imagine, your beliefs (whether or not you’re living them) inform your faith. Your beliefs about who’s included or not included in your group affects how you view an outsider. Your belief about your place in the world (whether or not you have been singled out for some extra special loving) determines how you behave toward others. Your belief in an afterlife or some sort of existential reward for good behavior may or may not prevent you from doing something immoral.
You see, beliefs are simple mental constructs, and they can be true or untrue. We all have come to conclusions about our own existence, based on our personal experiences. As we age and learn, we take in new information, filter it, and reinterpret it as a new belief. Examine your life. Do you hold the same beliefs you did 10 years ago? I’d be a little concerned if you do. It means you haven’t learned anything. It most likely means you’re afraid; you think your beliefs are a life preserver, for just-in-case.
You need not be fearful or shamed about discarding a tenaciously held belief, because it doesn’t hold up to common sense or because it doesn’t fit your view of love or whatever else you have come to know and understand. That’s how you change, evolve, become a better person. There are plenty who would disagree with me here, and say that some beliefs require you to forge ahead when your brain has already shut off. I would disagree. To put so little trust in your own cognitive abilities and instincts serves no one but yourself.
http://www.elissaelliott.com/what-is-the-difference-between-belief-and-faith/
in what way is this an example of "intelligence without substance" ?
it would be no different than a molecule of salt forming because sodium and clorine came close to one another.
the very same reasoning applies to organic chemistry.
correct, science formulated the scientific law of biogenesis long ago.
lab tests the world over has confirmed that law over and over and over, there has been NO evidence against it.
this in NO WAY says there must be a god.
there are 2 things you can conclude, actually 3 if you count the god scenario:
1. life has always existed and therefor infinite.
2. life employs some kind of interdiminsional effect.
3. there is a god.
in my opinion the god scenario doesn't fly.
correction: the god depicted in the bible as creator doesn't fly.
Fraggle Rocker
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As I have noted before, there is a chasm of difference between rational faith and irrational faith. Mrs. Fraggle has been kind, tolerant, supportive and loving for 35 years. Based upon this evidence, it is reasonable to assume that she will continue to be so for another 10 or 15. This is rational faith.
People who believe in gods have no evidence. They just wish it were true because that would make the world so much more tolerable--specifically the promise of an afterlife in a place with no pain or sorrow. Notice that as real life becomes so much less grueling, with a 40-hour week in a job that can be done sitting down, infant mortality down below one percent so people aren't in serial grief over the loss of their loved ones, professionally composed and performed music available 24/7, etc., the need for an afterlife has greatly diminished, and religion is indeed dying out in most of the developed world, with the inexplicable exception of the USA.
As we continue to learn more about life, cracking the code of abiogenesis does not seem to be out of reach. So it's rational faith that science will unlock the mystery, just as it always has.
Religious bullshit has never delivered anything beyond hope for a future from which no one has ever come back to vouch for. In fact it has been a major cause of most of the recent wars, the bloodiest in human history with the exception of Genghis Khan's depredations. And if you haven't run across this before, don't start yelling about communism being an atheist philosophy. Marx was a Christian (only in America are most people named "Marx" Jewish) and his fairytale economic principle, "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities," is an elaboration of a line from the Book of Acts. Communism is an offshoot of Christianity.
People have come to respect science because it delivers. When they ask questions, they get answers. Usually more than they wanted, since although scientists are abysmally pure communicators they love to talk. They've gotten answers to the questions they've asked, so it is rational faith to assume that there are answers to their other questions too.
As for Darwinian evolution, most Americans have actually seen plenty of evidence. Our museums have entire halls dedicated to it, and every major newspaper runs an article on it at least once a month because they keep coming up with more fascinating discoveries. You really picked a lousy example. Maybe you should try plate tectonics instead.
there is nothing wrong with believing in god, belief (or faith) is well documented in science.
what's wrong is applying that to the "cause" of life.
such application is illogical and unreasonable.
the laws of organic chemistry prove you do not need a god to get chemicals to react with one another.
organic catalysts explain how reactions can proceed fast or slow.
my opinion is that "life" is going to be found as a fundamental force of nature and will be integrated into quantum physics somehow.
i was thinking about this today at work and came to the following conclusion:
our universe is called "space-time" for a reason.
it's because it is neither space nor time but a contaminated aspect of both.
it isn't space because it has stuff in it, likewise it isn't time because it too (time) has "stuff in it".
it's getting deep, just the way i like it.
Maybe you should try plate tectonics instead.
Please no.
what a shmooze.
i strongly suspect mr. fraggle wants that new car for christmas.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Already got a Mercedes.
Are you an idiot? Human beings are not dogs or pigs those are all different species, that definitely is not using biological classifications correctly.
Are you an idiot? Pigs and dogs also don't read and write so do you think illiterate people are a different species? Yes, I am a mammal but [gasp] so are you, hope this does not distress you too much.
That is weird I am an atheist, my wife and son are theists but not my daughter - are you saying that makes us different species. Oh yeah, are you and idiot?
I said in my first thread that you seem intelligent - my mistake, I had not read many of your posts, I stand corrected.
Like spidergoat said they believe because they want to. It brings to mind that this is a deeper almost instinctual thinking pattern: the will to survive, coupled with the defense mechanism, when confronted by the forces of nature working against that will, converging into a deep denial which resists anything that requires them to yield: that they will simply die, and nothing more, the play is over, the illusion evaporates. Complicating this is that they have been hoping all their lives that immortality were true. The thinking patterns are now deeply ingrained, reinforced by repetition. It has become for them a new reality, a particular kind of delusion. On another level, the writings which form their mantras are filled with reports of hallucinations, dreams, the hearing of voices and delusions of apparitions, levitation and magic. These writings set up a kind of resonance between the delusional mind of antiquity and that of present day. Denial itself becomes immortal across hundreds of generations of sympathetic vibration. The evolutionary source of this is comparable to the co-evolution of parasites; along with the ability to contemplate the world, to overcome nature's ravages and survive, came a particular insanity - an insane way of thinking, an insane way of behaving, an insane life - that feeds on the will to survive: the delusion of immortality and the more detrimental denial by which the parasite attaches its fangs, fools the immune system, and paralyzes the fragile cells of rational thought, particularly that faculty which persuades us that reason is sacred, knowledge is a shrine, evidence is holy. And here we are, with our collectively fractured mind, struggling to bring together these disparate factions, driven by that other primordial instinct, the one that promotes biological survival through cooperation - trapped in this insane conversation (since at least the Golden Age of Greece, when Critias explained how and why men invented the gods) and yet seeking unity of thought and purpose for the good of the whole. Cooperation is our temple of harmony, the way animals exist in serenity when there is no competition for food, territory or mate, and no predator to trigger the insane death chase and leaves the prey habitually on alert, nervous, shaky, eyes constantly darting around, ears erect and noses carefully probing the air for the scent of monsters.
Someday I think it will be taught in all the schools that civilizations once lived in a state of perpetual delusion and denial, followed by millennia of negotiation with the voice (oracle-priest) that clamors for the good of the whole (cooperation); that all of this has been caused by nothing more than a vestigial base instinct (will to survive), hammered out by a very gradual awakening, one that succeeds (salvation/redemption) in placing the rational higher brain functions in charge of the lower instinctual ones.
Creationists often speak of science as a false religion, without having set foot in this church, read its scripture or partaken of its sacraments, much less having even a passing knowledge of its credo.
(Let me be the first to demonstrate
)Seen by creationists as a conspiracy, cabal or club, the acolytes of the temple are merely caught in the rapture. Yes, we can overcome delusion. Yes, we can cooperate. See: here, let me list for the 8th time the simplified summary of Darwin's theory. And: by the way, did you ever read the scriptures written by the creatures of antiquity, left for us in the pages of the strata? And: didn't your God give you this book to read? It certainly wasn't written by men! Well then, don't you think He expects you to read it?I must say, we certainly stand on the side of righteousness and truth - even when we're wrong we're right, because we are perfectly innocent. The worst we can ever be is incorrect, never corrupt, since all we are doing is taking measurements and reporting back. More than harmless it's saintly - healing the sick, practically raising the dead - and this alone will deliver us from evil. This is paradise, look no further. Now, tell me again what Darwin said about the finches in his sermon on the mount. It brings such a sense of serenity, knowing once and for all how we got here, that present time is the gift of life. It will someday be forever taken away; it's up to us to eat the bread of life while we can, for tomorrow we may have no choppers . . .
(Acknowledging that that's about all that will be left in the long run, if we really want to be honest about immortality. . . )
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