Denial of evolution III

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Yet we can see the earth is round via simple experiments and satellite images, and yet we can see evolution is true via breeding, genetic mapping, actual speciation events observed in controlled settings, etc, what is the difference?
Use of satellite images to test whether the world is round is not allowed. Doing so depends on chemistry to launch the satellite, gravitation to explain why it stays in orbit, and quantum mechanics to explain the sensor, each of which is just a theory. Using genetic mapping as evidence of evolution is similarly against the rules of science. Saquist told us what those rules are:

Judicial and Scientific Rules

PROOF is observable reproducible Facts.
EVIDENCE in it's broadest meaning is anything which can support a claim.
SUPPORT defines speculation based on evidence.
CONJECTURE is baseless speculation

No Theory Based on another Theory can be considered properly supported.

Or maybe, just maybe, those rules as stated by Saquist are just a bunch of malarky, too.
 
The theory that the Earth is round and not flat is just a theory too. Therefore, as long as the round-Earth theory remains unproven the truth is undetermined. The possibilities must be excogiated (whatever that means - is that a real word?)

Negative, sir.
The assertion that the Earth is flat is a factual fallacy not a theory.

I assume you could have looked this up.
ex·cog·i·tate: : Think out, plan, or devise. To consider or think (something) out carefully and thoroughly. ...
 
Negative, sir.
The assertion that the Earth is flat is a factual fallacy not a theory.

yet why then are assertions for creationism not also factual fallacies?

Besides the Earth being flat I think another analogy is the geocentric model: did you know that 18% of Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth? Are they believing in a theory or a factual fallacy?
 
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Therefore for as long as Evolution remains unproven the truth is undetermined, the possibilities must be excogiated.

perhaps - but only under the cirucmstances where the possibilities - i.e the alternatives - might take us down avenues of investigation that yield useful and meaningful results - and science of all flavours is open to that.

The problem with offering the make-beleive and magic creationist alternative is that it is scientifically, ethically, and functionally useless - it doesnt lead to new medicine, new medical treatments, new crops, new livestock, or any new undertanding whatsoever, so it can be very safely ignored until it stops stamping its foot and crying like an 8 year old girl who is incensed that someone had a bigger slice of birthday cake than she did, and actually brings something useful to the table that we can investigate.

when it does that

when YOU do that

we'll listen
 
The denial of evolution is the epitome of the illogical. There is no logic, no science, no value in creationism.

Axiomatic logic is actually sort of flawed because it's based on the assumption that at least one axiom is true, and the degree to which something can be accepted as truth varies based on who is doing the thinking.

It's entirely possible (though not necessarily likely, but possible nonetheless) that there is some sort of higher power, and you can prevent it from being disproved by using a whole mess of bad logic. Although, you can technically do the same thing with physics, saying that thus far we've just had a series of lucky hunches that have coincided with "real" physics (Gnomes, anyone? :p). The difference is that people care less about what keeps their feet on the ground and more about eternal existence, which is why you have more people denying evolution than gravity.
 
yet why then are assertions for creationism not also factual fallacies?

Unless you prove theist wrong then you would have me indulge in factual fallacies simply to favor atheistic views which would be the antithesis of objective logic.

perhaps - but only under the cirucmstances where the possibilities - i.e the alternatives - might take us down avenues of investigation that yield useful and meaningful results - and science of all flavours is open to that.

The problem with offering the make-beleive and magic creationist alternative is that it is scientifically, ethically, and functionally useless - it doesnt lead to new medicine, new medical treatments, new crops, new livestock, or any new undertanding whatsoever, so it can be very safely ignored until it stops stamping its foot and crying like an 8 year old girl who is incensed that someone had a bigger slice of birthday cake than she did, and actually brings something useful to the table that we can investigate.

when it does that

when YOU do that

we'll listen


Forgive me, sir. I read your post about 3 times. I'm very tolerant of other peoples views even if they are not tolerant of my own but what use were these statements? You advocated ignorance of a possible truth due solely to a lack of perspective aptitude.

I appreciate your opinion on the matter and the atheistic philosophy but I have a philosophy that governs even my theistic views and that is logic. And logic compels that truth will always be useful. If that truth is that there is no God, it's useful. If the truth is there is a God, it's useful. The Truth dictates progress, our efforts and energies, our time and our focus and the search for the truth has always been socially worth wild in all sorts of practicalities.
 
I appreciate your opinion on the matter and the atheistic philosophy but I have a philosophy that governs even my theistic views and that is logic. And logic compels that truth will always be useful. If that truth is that there is no God, it's useful. If the truth is there is a God, it's useful. The Truth dictates progress, our efforts and energies, our time and our focus and the search for the truth has always been socially worthwhile in all sorts of practicalities.

but to-date creationism has made no progress whatsoever since the original arguments were put forward - and there were never useful pro-creationism arguments anyway - they were simply ignorant anti-evolution creeds.

To-date creationsim has not been socialy worthwhile - it has been ethically and morally bankrupt in its practices and through its practitioners and socially devisive

To-date nothing practical has come from creationism - not one single thing.

Until its advocates begin to even attempt to meet the standards you yourself have set for it it can be safely ignored.

Using your own logic - "truth is useful" - creationism has proven itself to be incontravertably useless - conversely the understanding of evolution has proven itself to be incredibly useful.

therefore creationism is a falsehood

quod erat demonstrandum
 
if you criticize evolution negatively, then you aren't apt to criticize it in the first place.
just look at all the biologists who speak against evolution now and how they're regarded by the scientific community, and contrast it to how those who spoke against piltdown man and the other hoaxes were regarded.. the similarity is unsetteling.
so :shrug:.
 
if you criticize evolution negatively, then you aren't apt to criticize it in the first place.

That may appear to be the case but it isnt so - the problem is not with criticism of evolution, it is with the actual criticisms themselves.
There is not a single creationist anti-evolution idea or criticism that is less than about 50 years old (many are even older than this) - some of which reflected the progress that the biological sciences had made up to that point - some were just plain wrong even back then.
But with the exception of god of the gaps stuff which is an accepted fallacy anyway - all of these criticisms have been thoroughly refuted or answered - either 50 years ago or since then.

so while creationism has stood still for 50 years and got absolutely nowhere - the science of biology has made huge strides, and in some cases massive leaps, forward.

so there is some understanable frustration from people who stayed awake in science class when the same old arguments, refuted half a century ago, are still being rolled out to this day.

make sense?

just look at all the biologists who speak against evolution now and how they're regarded by the scientific community, and contrast it to how those who spoke against piltdown man and the other hoaxes were regarded.. the similarity is unsetteling.
so :shrug:.

LOL! funny one! - name 7
 
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Unless you prove theist wrong then you would have me indulge in factual fallacies simply to favor atheistic views which would be the antithesis of objective logic.

There is no way to scientifically disprove even something as logically bankrupt as Young Earth Creationism. An incredibly cruel and unusual god could have created the Earth 5000 years ago, complete with fossils and other evidence of a much older Earth, and surrounded this Earth with a simulation of the universe that yields exactly the same signs we see scientifically as real planets, real stars, real galaxies, all very old. This is not the sign of an omnibenevolent god. It is the sign of a morally bankrupt god. This view of young earth creationism verges on solipsism, another non-scientific concept that cannot be falsified. Young earth creationism, like solipsism, offers nothing.

In order to "prove religion wrong" there would have to be a falsifiable statement in religion. There isn't, at least not in a religion consistent with what we perceive to be reality. Which gets back to something TravisW just posted:

Axiomatic logic is actually sort of flawed because it's based on the assumption that at least one axiom is true, and the degree to which something can be accepted as truth varies based on who is doing the thinking.
Because so much hinges on the basic assumptions of some scientific theory, scientists test and retest and re-retest those assumptions. There is however one assumption that is at the root of all science that cannot be tested: That what we perceive as reality *is* a reflection of reality. Science is blind to the possibility that the world we appear to live on and the universe we appear to live in is nothing but an extremely elaborate hoax.


Back to Saquist:
... atheistic views ... atheistic philosophy
You appear to think that evolution is inherently an atheistic philosophy. It is not. While there are very few biologists who are also young earth creationists, there are plenty of deeply religious biologists who have no problem reconciling their religious and scientific views. Per this study, http://religion.ssrc.org/reforum/Gross_Simmons.pdf, about 61% of college biology professors are atheists or agnostics, the remaining 39% believing in God or some higher power.


if you criticize evolution negatively, then you aren't apt to criticize it in the first place.
That makes no sense.

just look at all the biologists who speak against evolution now and how they're regarded by the scientific community, and contrast it to how those who spoke against piltdown man and the other hoaxes were regarded.. the similarity is unsetteling.
That is not only a non sequitur, it is false. It was scientists who showed Piltdown Man to be a hoax.

so :shrug:.
Given the utterly confused and logically invalid nature of your post, I take it that with this shrug your are acknowledging that you have nothing of value to contribute.


Regarding scientific hoaxes such as Piltdown Man: Yes, they do exist. Some people see creating a hoax as an easier path to fame and glory than is hard, honest work. Religious hoaxes also exist, and in far greater abundance than scientific hoaxes. That shouldn't be all that surprising given that the potentials for fame, glory, and money are far greater with religious hoaxes than with scientific hoaxes. The existence of such hoaxes, scientific or religious, does nothing to disprove science or religion. All they show is that some people are evil and that other people are gullible.
 
evolution doesn't pass the falsification test :)
plain and simple.
 
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lol ok.
i'll demonstrate how i'm right, and you demonstrate how i'm wrong.
to be falsifiable some life should be conceivable through a process other than the evolutionary process, like, an imaginary living being or a part of it should be hypothetically able to exist by means other than evolution. and since such being or part doesn't exist so far, evolution is the only answer.
when such being or part is found, THEN evolution would be wrong. untill then, evolution is right.
the theory of gravity would be proven wrong when a normal body is found to just float around without being affected by gravity.
there is no such being or part which is scientifically impossible to conceive with the evolutionary process, not even an imaginary one.
a certain scientist proposed such phenomenon or criteria, and called it irreducible complexity, which is the exact same thing proposed by darwin himself when he said:
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
yet, when scientists saw this POSSIBLE gap in evolution, which is actually necassary for the theory to be taken seriously, they labeled it
a pseudoscientific argument by proponents of intelligent design that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, through natural selection acting upon a series of advantageous naturally-occurring, chance mutations.
i mean:facepalm:
 
i'm not a biologist, so i don't have the knowledge base to judge evidence for or against which is viable and which isn't. but the tooth and nail attitude the "scientific community" has towards evolution sure makes the whole business a bit shady.. and renders the "scientific community"'s word for evolution pretty dubious.
 
btw, been some time since you last came around here DH, sure is good to see some of the old timers still live and kicking :D
 
...
In order to "prove religion wrong" there would have to be a falsifiable statement in religion. ...
True, but there sure are plenty of self contradictory claims. For examples and discussion, see: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2670025&postcount=152
Unless you prove theist wrong ...
That is also discussed in the above link. Only in the realm of mathematics is it possible to prove the non-existence of something claimed to exist. In above link I note that unicorns may be pulling plows on some distant planet, etc.
 
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Wow, Scifes, you are full of misconceptions.

Indeed, evolution is falsifiable. And an irreducible biological part would falsify it. However, no such part has been found. When creationist explanations point to parts they think are irreducible, those descriptions are often full of pseudoscience.

but the tooth and nail attitude the "scientific community" has towards evolution sure makes the whole business a bit shady

So, the existence of a theory which has not yet been proven wrong in untold numbers of experiments is somehow "shady"? Maybe they are so sure about it because that's what the science says.
 
Unless you prove theist wrong then you would have me indulge in factual fallacies simply to favor atheistic views which would be the antithesis of objective logic.

But evolution has nothing to do with atheism. You can still have god(s) and evolution, they aren't mutually exclusive. So the argument that evolution must disprove god in order to disprove creationism is a non sequitur.
 
True, but there sure are plenty of self contradictory claims. For examples and discussion, see: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2670025&postcount=152
That is also discussed in the above link. Only in the realm of mathematics is it possible to prove the non-existence of something claimed to exist. In above link I note that unicorns may be pulling plows on some distant planet, etc.

You're jumping on the negative proof fallacy but you're missing the point that it can't be a factual fallacy if it hasn't been proven wrong. The Earth has been proven to be a sphere and not flat. Flat Earth Theory has been proven wrong. This is very straight-forward.

There is no way to scientifically disprove even something as logically bankrupt as Young Earth Creationism.

Yes, but what can you do? You can't run around ridiculing people because you think your theory is superior to their theory when none of us knows for sure. I don't believe it either but hey that's life on Earth.


Because so much hinges on the basic assumptions of some scientific theory, scientists test and retest and re-retest those assumptions. There is however one assumption that is at the root of all science that cannot be tested: That what we perceive as reality *is* a reflection of reality. Science is blind to the possibility that the world we appear to live on and the universe we appear to live in is nothing but an extremely elaborate hoax.

....
Hmmm.


Back to Saquist:

You appear to think that evolution is inherently an atheistic philosophy.

Actually I was saying your philosophy is atheistic.

It is not. While there are very few biologists who are also young earth creationists, there are plenty of deeply religious biologists who have no problem reconciling their religious and scientific views. Per this study, http://religion.ssrc.org/reforum/Gross_Simmons.pdf, about 61% of college biology professors are atheists or agnostics, the remaining 39% believing in God or some higher power.

Yes I know a hand full of those myself. One from Max Planck and the other from University of Mexico. But they don't attempt to reconcile the two as most do. They like myself see areas of conflict. Most just modify their religion to fit science like religion has been doing with government and other religions for thousands of years.



but to-date creationism has made no progress whatsoever since the original arguments were put forward - and there were never useful pro-creationism arguments anyway - they were simply ignorant anti-evolution creeds.
To-date creationsim has not been socialy worthwhile - it has been ethically and morally bankrupt in its practices and through its practitioners and socially devisive

To-date nothing practical has come from creationism - not one single thing.

Until its advocates begin to even attempt to meet the standards you yourself have set for it it can be safely ignored.

Using your own logic - "truth is useful" - creationism has proven itself to be incontravertably useless - conversely the understanding of evolution has proven itself to be incredibly useful.

therefore creationism is a falsehood

quod erat demonstrandum

I'm glad you've convinced yourself of all that but I'm not going to fight your opinion and your value judgments. There is a fundamental schism here in the very vocabulary we are using and we seem unable to bridge it to any meaningful understanding. At the risk of appearing to have been defeated I prefer to peacefully withdraw and leave you to your own conclusions. There are worse things in the world than to be in an unresolved disagreement.
 
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