Deities do or do not exist?

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Surely atheists can also hold beliefs that give them a sense of well being, a sense of purpose etc.

But it does make a difference in a person's life how much their beliefs help them to make it through the various difficulties in life.

A person who has so far held belief B1, might at some point decide that in order to surmount the difficulties that have come into their lives, taking up belief B2 might be better.

And when this same principle applies to large numbers of people, some generalizations begin to be possible, and we can make some conclusions that B2 is better than B1.

(This is a basic principle in psychology anyway, for example.)

When I go through personal tragedy I do not all of a sudden turn to a god principle in order to get through it. There are non-religious ways of getting through adversity. I could argue that a person who suddenly shifts beliefs during a difficult time isn't sincere, this would be true too for the person who believed in god then suddenly declared there is no god because they were somehow disappointed in their life.

You assume that atheists have had no challenging life experiences which is a mistake.

What you are doing in effect is making the belief in god a crutch for bad times or weak hearts and minds.

 

[Jan Ardena]

iceaura,

Yep. Note that you have a specific deity there - the Abrahamic "God" with the capital letter - and that I am making certain assumptions about your meaning based on your apparent intention and background here (for example: that your meaning of "exist" does not include "as a metaphorical or heuristic character in a story, protagonist in a work of fiction", etc. If the kind of existence that the whale Moby Dick enjoys, say, is included there, I have a different answer for you.)
Whether theistic people are better off is an interesting question - even apart from the question of whether or not they are deluded in their beliefs.

We have a growing body of evidence that certain apparent delusions are good for a person, or a society, on average over time.

Erm, it's dead simple iceaura, does God exist or not, for you in your life, right now. If you don't know what I mean by 'God', then God does not exist for you.

jan.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

What do you think who is better off, atheists or theists?

Well it depends on what we are talking about but I would say no matter how you define 'better off' you will find examples on both sides that would qualify.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Why not?


Not believing that X exists does not exclude you from being affected by X.

For example, a person may not believe in gravity or may be completely ignorant of what the term means, but that doesn't mean that gravity will not affect them.

Ok lets say for this experiment X exists. You have stated this X is only interested in those who are interested in it. We can see that this X does not lavish those who are interested in it anymore benefits (material, physical or emotional) than it would on those who are not interested. In the scenario you give there is no evidence that X does anymore than sit behind a door 'listening' to the musings of those on the other side so I don't see how it has any affect, especially if it remains behind the door.

I don't think gravity is a good example of this since someone can show evidence of gravity and explain it to someone who is simply ignorant of the term. This does not hold true for Senor X

 

[wynn]

Well it depends on what we are talking about but I would say no matter how you define 'better off' you will find examples on both sides that would qualify.

Can you give some examples?

 

[wynn]

I think I would, unless I'd be afraid they would do something to me.

But Signal, your thought experiment is flawed. Of course I WOULD show myself if I wanted those people to believe in me.

Can you list some reasons why you would want those people to believe in you?

 

[Enmos]

Can you list some reasons why you would want those people to believe in you?

I not interested in people that want to believe in me. God, on the other hand, is.

 

[wynn]

When I go through personal tragedy I do not all of a sudden turn to a god principle in order to get through it. There are non-religious ways of getting through adversity. I could argue that a person who suddenly shifts beliefs during a difficult time isn't sincere, this would be true too for the person who believed in god then suddenly declared there is no god because they were somehow disappointed in their life.

I do not think it is possible to suddenly go from atheist to theist.

Changes of beliefs tend to take time, and there was probably quite a bit of preparation going on, whether the person was aware of this preparation or not.

To go from full-blown atheist to full-blown theist tends to take a bit of work.

Also, apart from cults, I don't know of any religious traditions that would take instantaneous conversions seriously. The person needs to manifest some consistency of their beliefs and actions over a period of time, before the congregation accepts them as a believer.

You assume that atheists have had no challenging life experiences which is a mistake.

Oh? This is what I am assuming? You don't say.

What you are doing in effect is making the belief in god a crutch for bad times or weak hearts and minds.

This comment says more about you than it does about me ...

 

[wynn]

I not interested in people that want to believe in me. God, on the other hand, is.

How do you know God has such an interest?

 

[Enmos]

How do you know God has such an interest?

Isn't it in the bible? God wants us to believe in him.

 

[wynn]

Isn't it in the bible? God wants us to believe in him.

So you believe the Bible?

 

[Enmos]

So you believe the Bible?

I know Christians do.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Can you give some examples?

A sense of well being. A way to put things in life in context so they are manageable. A sense of purpose and hope.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Signal: I do not think it is possible to suddenly go from atheist to theist. Changes of beliefs tend to take time, and there was probably quite a bit of preparation going on, whether the person was aware of this preparation or not.
To go from full-blown atheist to full-blown theist tends to take a bit of work.
Also, apart from cults, I don't know of any religious traditions that would take instantaneous conversions seriously. The person needs to manifest some consistency of their beliefs and actions over a period of time, before the congregation accepts them as a believer.

Then why do you think its possible to go from theist to atheist? I am not speaking of conversions I am speaking of using a belief as a crutch to get through something.


Signal: Oh? This is what I am assuming? You don't say.

Well you made this comment:

"But it does make a difference in a person's life how much their beliefs help them to make it through the various difficulties in life."

Obviously if a theists beliefs help them through rough spells then the same has to be said of atheists who weather a rough time.

Signal: This comment says more about you than it does about me ...

I wasn't making a comment about you. What I'm saying is your explanation infers that the benefit of religion is to 'make it through difficulties' which makes it a crutch. You know like a cigarette under stress.

 

[wynn]

Then why do you think its possible to go from theist to atheist?

Because the person has done the work necessary for such a change.

I am not speaking of conversions I am speaking of using a belief as a crutch to get through something.

Then we are apparently talking about different things.

This discussion here started out with who is better off, theists or atheists, which are names of categories, to which the phenomenon of conversion is related.


Where do you see the line between "using an individual belief as a crutch to get through something" and being a believer (theist or atheist or whichever)?

"But it does make a difference in a person's life how much their beliefs help them to make it through the various difficulties in life."

Obviously if a theists beliefs help them through rough spells then the same has to be said of atheists who weather a rough time.

Sure. Buit how did you, based on that, come to say "You assume that atheists have had no challenging life experiences which is a mistake"?

I wasn't making a comment about you. What I'm saying is your explanation infers that the benefit of religion is to 'make it through difficulties' which makes it a crutch. You know like a cigarette under stress.

My explanation didn't infer anything like that. Explanations don't infer, people who read them do.

And it does say something about you that you inferred that what I said implies such a thing as you said above ...

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Why do you assume it would take work to go from theism to atheism? Why not that they simply stopped believing because it didn't work? Or perhaps they discovered its fallacies or were disappointed?

I think it is a crutch whether the believer is aware of it or not but this has nothing to do with conversions.

Signal: Buit how did you, based on that, come to say "You assume that atheists have had no challenging life experiences which is a mistake"?

Because you made this comment:"But it does make a difference in a person's life how much their beliefs help them to make it through the various difficulties in life."

What a person who does not believe in god also has beliefs that allow them to get through difficulties in life.

Signal: And it does say something about you that you inferred that what I said implies such a thing as you said above ...

Well first of all you say nothing about what you think it says about me. Second I am making a statement about you're explanation, you describe it as a crutch, as something useful during difficulties as you said that their beliefs were not irrelevant and were useful because they 'allow them to get through difficulties'. You decided that this was somehow personal when it wasn't if you mean something else then simply say what you mean and make it clear.

By the way you completely misunderstood the Fatal Familial Insomnia, I left a response.

 

[wynn]

Why do you assume it would take work to go from theism to atheism? Why not that they simply stopped believing because it didn't work? Or perhaps they discovered its fallacies or were disappointed?

Unless the person is completely irrational or a robot, "discovery", "disappointment", "stopping" usually happen within some context, within the framework of some physical and cognitive activities.

I think it is a crutch whether the believer is aware of it or not but this has nothing to do with conversions.

So if it is a crutch, this implies weakness of heart and mind, if I am understanding you correctly.

Per you, what is the way to act then, so as to not use crutches?

What would a strong heart and mind do when faced with difficulties in life?

Signal: Buit how did you, based on that, come to say "You assume that atheists have had no challenging life experiences which is a mistake"?

Because you made this comment:"But it does make a difference in a person's life how much their beliefs help them to make it through the various difficulties in life."

What a person who does not believe in god also has beliefs that allow them to get through difficulties in life.

Sure.

Like I said: :"But it does make a difference in a person's life how much their beliefs help them to make it through the various difficulties in life."

A bottle of vodka can get you through a lonely night. But the next morning, you have a nasty hangover.
Was vodka a good way to deal with the loneliness?

A belief that it doesn't really matter what you do for a living can help you to endure a job that you hate. But then you tend not to feel all that good about yourself and your life on the whole, and then tend to become cynical, depressed or develop some substance or other addiction.
Is being relativistic about your values when it comes to the kind of work you do a good solution to deal with a job that you don't like?


An atheistic belief can get a person through all sorts of difficulties, but how well it does so, how much collateral damage is done with it, is what I find interesting.

Well first of all you say nothing about what you think it says about me.

You seem like an intelligent person. But I think what you present here is a very simplistic and naive view of beliefs, especially religious and/or theistic beliefs. And the way you discuss things is full of Schopenhauerian stratagems, which makes discussing with you really difficult.
I don't know - perhaps this is your genuine opinion, or perhaps you are arguing this way merely for rhetorical purposes.

Second I am making a statement about you're explanation, you describe it as a crutch, as something useful during difficulties as you said that their beliefs were not irrelevant and were useful because they 'allow them to get through difficulties'.

I have never said beliefs were crutches. You have been saying this about beliefs and about what I have said.

By the way you completely misunderstood the Fatal Familial Insomnia, I left a response.

Fer shure.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Signal: What would a strong heart and mind do when faced with difficulties in life?

Facing them without ascribing anything to a fantasy figure or believing a fantasy figure would intervene

Signal: A bottle of vodka can get you through a lonely night. But the next morning, you have a nasty hangover. Was vodka a good way to deal with the loneliness?

vodka is alcohol not a belief system. We were speaking of belief systems.

Signal: A belief that it doesn't really matter what you do for a living can help you to endure a job that you hate. But then you tend not to feel all that good about yourself and your life on the whole, and then tend to become cynical, depressed or develop some substance or other addiction. Is being relativistic about your values when it comes to the kind of work you do a good solution to deal with a job that you don't like?

You are hanging out on a limb with this one. We can assume that someone who keeps a job they don't like does this because they have to for survival, whether they become cynical or depressed is questionable as for some people a job is only as important as the pay check and they find emotional sustenance outside of work. There is no evidence that someone becomes an addict because they don't like their job. Furthermore I don't see in any way how this example relates to the topic at hand.

Signal: An atheistic belief can get a person through all sorts of difficulties, but how well it does so, how much collateral damage is done with it, is what I find interesting.


You're projecting. You say an 'atheist belief'. There is no 'atheist belief' save not believing in a god. Outside of not believing in gods atheists can believe an array of things and have an array of perspectives and ways of dealing with life and reality and it all will not be the same.
Our moral sensibilities will not be the same, our values and ideas of how to live life will not be the same.

Signal: You seem like an intelligent person. But I think what you present here is a very simplistic and naive view of beliefs, especially religious and/or theistic beliefs. And the way you discuss things is full of Schopenhauerian stratagems, which makes discussing with you really difficult.I don't know - perhaps this is your genuine opinion, or perhaps you are arguing this way merely for rhetorical purposes.


Schopenhauer isn't here discussing this with you, I am. Signal you don't seem that intelligent to me, most I can glean is condescension when you have run out of ideas or anything relevant to add to a discussion outside of your X behind the door experiment (which was silly) and some notion that life was somehow much better in the past as opposed to today.

Signal: I have never said beliefs were crutches. You have been saying this about beliefs and about what I have said.

I never said you said that beliefs were crutches. I said that the way you described the use of beliefs made them sound like crutches.

 

[wynn]

Okay, you have convinced me too.

 

[iceaura]

Erm, it's dead simple iceaura, does God exist or not, for you in your life, right now. -

And I gave you a simple answer: "Yep" - or, in your current not coincident phrasing (but still simple): "Nope".

If you don't know what I mean by 'God', then God does not exist for you.

You are assuming your own ability to infallibly inform others of your meaning. May I suggest a bit of doubt? I certainly have to make various assumptions about what you are driving at, quite often, and I do not assume these assumptions are always correct, on my part.

Quite possibly I might believe in your God's existence, but be mistaken in your description and misinform you in consequence.

But to be more rigorous, as is important when a very topic of discussion is at issue: Not only does God (the standard Abrahamic Christian category of reasonably similar entities as believed in by ordinary Christian believers, with the capital G in English etc) not exist for me (in the relevant sense of "exist") but also and furthermore I deliberately think He does not exist: His nonexistence is for me a matter of considered judgment, and not merely absence of belief or whatever.