definition of god

[Avatar]

I see tht one here try to prove tht there is a god and others try to prove tht there is/are no such being(s).
But we can not prove or disprove the gods' existence if we have no definition of it. How can we prove or disprove smthing if we do not know what it is. Maybe one thinks tht he has proven the gods existence, but to smone other god means smthing entirely different with god. So I propose tht we define what is god and if you think tht there is no such being then, why (meaning – disprove tht characteristics given to god can not be true). Of course at our present state of technological and spiritual advancement, we can not be sure what can be possible and what not, but it’s worth a try.
I do not agree with the concept of god, but I’ll try what a god should have –
1) God could control and interfere our lives
2) God has no physical shape
3) He doesn’t consume energy
4) He has thelepatcal abilities
5) He can move between dimensions
6) FTL travel
7) Network like mind
8) He should be able to destroy universe
9) He can not be killed
10) He should have a very stable psyhic

And from my point of view
1) God can not control everything (first we need to define what is everything) i.e. can he break the laws he has created (physics and such)
2) If he consumes energy, then our universe might collapse (maybe tht thing has already happened smwhere in deep past (singularity)
3) God can not be like some think – all knowing and wise. Think of it - you have all eternity to live alone (no one is a mach for you and no one to talk as an equal) He would 1. go completely mad. 2. become a completely mad tyrant.
4) If someone destroyed all tht god has created and taken all energy in the universe, would god still be god (what would he then control and be a god to)

These are only my starting thoughts and anything could change, so let us start this discussion going (if you think it's worth it )
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[Tiassa]

God is. Period.

"God" is a word that we've assigned heavy conventional value. In the meantime, Avatar, might dredge up an old Catholic definition: God is greater than that which can be conceived. God simply is: the Universe (a single event), its processes (mundane events), and the laws governing those processes (the nature of God).

Every religion necessarily makes one vital error: every religion reduces God. When one says, "God only knows how much I love you," it not a statement that some figure located somewhere in existence and called "God" has a direct line to your brain, but that your feelings are part of that whole that is all there is: and, yet, God is greater. Thus attributions of personality and capability instantly reduce God and restrict Its potential. When you say that God is something, what of what God is not? When one says, "God only knows how much I love you," it is, in fact, the notion that however we have arrived here, we have arrived here; life itself knows something so strong as this sentiment, but not the human. It is a different sentiment, then, than the idea of a voyeur-God who knows better than you do how spiritually fulfilling it is when she arches her back just so and makes that quiet, helpless gasp right before orgasm. It is a different sentiment than the intrusive notion, that God feels the twinge of absolute devotion and inspiration for you when she smiles just so, holds you just so, or whispers comfort just so. The values that add up to love are our own in the world, and God, for instance, does not share them. Seriously, the dictionary should read:

god (god) n. the sum total of everything, known or unknown.

Anything more and you limit the potential of what God is. It's why the Christians are wrong, the Muslims and Jews and Hindu are wrong. It's the primary reason why Wicca doesn't suffice for me.

Thus, I must submit that, as thoughtful as your considerations are, Avatar, I feel that by developing any more exact definition of God, you are merely recreating the pantomime of faith and academia so stunningly presented by the Christians, and as part and parcel of most religious consideration in common practice today.

Think of it this way: "It's God's will" is just a Christian, as such, excuse. It is, in fact, an attempt to be sensitive to the sensitive; after all, the alternative is to look at them and say, Yeah? So? That's life.

To blame it on "someone" else makes it easier. A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down.

To define God is to reject God. To assign God a personality is to restrict Its nature. Silly ideas like the trinity and Hell come from those restrictions, which are imposed by our fears, both mundane and intricate.

Think of human progress in the last two-thousand years.

Now, think of how much human progress we might have achieved without Christianity. Sure we might have completely different theories of right, rights, empire, and the value of your human neighbor ....

Although I have to admit that the technical niceties I enjoy daily are, in fact, the result of our warlike ways. As you'll note, Western technological progress has always been driven more by warfare than it has by any actual necessity of life.

Definitions of God, in my strongest condemnation, are for people who choose to pretend they know instead of go forth and learn. Take, for instance, the shallow moralism that goes alongside, say, Creationism in the modern American context. And that is the result of the forsaking of knowledge in favor of faith. Born-agains seeking to revoke science and raise theocracy in order to affect homosexuality, divorce, and the abortion rate: that is, revoke science in order to exercise control over your intimacies. And hopefully, that would serve as an example of why I so deride definitions of God.

At my most enlightened disagreement with the idea, I might point out that the best you'll get from it is a freeze-frame of psyches at the moment, revealing in their ideas of God what is most important to them as individuals, and the justifications they've created to support those priorities. Why, for instance, do some believe for the fear (Hell), some for the glory (Triumph), and some for the Authority (Americans)? It's what these people find important. At the center of each individual's "relationship with God" is what we already know from the atheists, Buddhists, and Sufis: that what you see is entirely dependent on who you are and what you're looking at and why.

And therein is an important point, for atheism, Buddhism, and Sufism escape the wrath of my condemnation:

* Atheism makes no assertions of God, since God cannot be demonstrated to exist; the objective demands of atheism are such that assertions of God cannot withstand even the simplest tests.

* Buddhism and Sufism both make a number of assertions about God, but both approach those assertions with the idea that there is something to learn, that the idea of God cannot be attained the way an X-Wing fighter model can be obtained. Rather, it would be like building the model for years and realizing, Oh, well would you look at that ...? The object of inquiry is, admittedly, subjective, but when basic tenets of a philosophy assert that it will address the ideas that Life is suffering, suffering comes from ignorance, ignorance comes from desire ... it's a far cry from threatening your immortal soul with Hell.

Crowley escapes my wrath because he's hilarious. At his most insightful, he's got a lot to say, but it's always pompous and excessive. And he never really gets to defining the one central idea of God; angels and minor deities to be sure, but the source of All, the idea that makes Greek mythology monotheistic ... that he doesn't easily approach with doves, crucifixions, and torn veils. Crowley understood that God is greater than that which can be conceived, and earns a certain free pass on that count.

Prophet Gibran only expands the idea of what God can be; I can respect this.

And hopefully those minor distinctions can serve as useful in something. I find it an interesting topic, but, as my two cents and more points out, one upon which I stand firm.

It's not the idea of God, but the reduction thereof. It shows the psychological dysfunction of religion: people fear, and create gods in their own image. You'll notice that, for all the rhetoric, this awesome and complex idea of God is easily "understood" (as such) by the simplest minds. It is mastery of God. People define God and fear Him in order to define fear and be its masters. By naming or defining God within one's own mind, one has merely done that. The idea of God itself, and the Universe itself, are vastly greater than that reduced idea serving as a surrogate against fear.

And on that note, I'll get off my soapbox.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Avatar]

to Tiassa

Thus, I must submit that, as thoughtful as your considerations are, Avatar, I feel that by developing any more exact definition of God, you are merely recreating the pantomime of faith and academia so stunningly presented by the Christians, and as part and parcel of most religious consideration in common practice today.

nonononono, I do not restrict god. I only propose to make a definition of what god could be.

here's what I think of G O D. God is universe, it is all tht is. but it has no personality or will. its will is made up by us - everyone with a will in the whole universe(es) . we are all part of it, thus we all are gods, but most don't understand tht and act as homo eructus might have behaved that's the problem.

Definitions of God, in my strongest condemnation, are for people who choose to pretend they know instead of go forth and learn.

but what do I suggest?? I suggest an exchane of ideas and proofs. in fact we know almost nothing of our universe and nthing about god, but we can still make theories. tht hurts noone andd helps us to sharpen our minds

At my most enlightened disagreement with the idea, I might point out that the best you'll get from it is a freeze-frame of psyches at the moment, revealing in their ideas of God what is most important to them as individuals, and the justifications they've created to support those priorities. Why, for instance, do some believe for the fear (Hell), some for the glory (Triumph), and some for the Authority (Americans)? It's what these people find important. At the center of each individual's "relationship with God" is what we already know from the atheists, Buddhists, and Sufis: that what you see is entirely dependent on who you are and what you're looking at and why.

Yes but we are here a multi-cultural, multi-religional (was tht right) community here. so if everyone says his thoughts and everyone else denyes and says why, then at the end we should have a result tht can apply all (not much hope in achieveing tht though, we are still quite primitive )

It's not the idea of God, but the reduction thereof. It shows the psychological dysfunction of religion: people fear, and create gods in their own image

I can (do) agree with tht

By naming or defining God within one's own mind, one has merely done that.

again- I'm not the only one here, you are here (glad you're here ) and others will be too, so it won't be just in my mind.

idea of God itself, and the Universe itself, are vastly greater than that reduced idea serving as a surrogate against fear.

I do not fear god or gods, I fear only the stupidity of mankind.

Cheers!

 

[Amp]

Avatar

God is somewhat impossible of definition but we are not banned from trying.
1. God is omniscient
2. God is omnipotent
3. God is omnipresent
those definitions in a sense are one-sided like a mobius strip for they offer up limitations to the concept of God, like possibly restricting Free Will, causing pre-destination and the like. This is the explanation I think is more accurate-(c/p)
Paper 1
THE UNIVERSAL FATHER

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1:0.1 The Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: "You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain." Only the concept of the Universal Father -- one God in the place of many gods -- enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.
1:0.2 The myriads of planetary systems were all made to be eventually inhabited by many different types of intelligent creatures, beings who could know God, receive the divine affection, and love him in return. The universe of universes is the work of God and the dwelling place of his diverse creatures. "God created the heavens and formed the earth; he established the universe and created this world not in vain; he formed it to be inhabited."
1:0.3 The enlightened worlds all recognize and worship the Universal Father, the eternal maker and infinite upholder of all creation. The will creatures of universe upon universe have embarked upon the long, long Paradise journey, the fascinating struggle of the eternal adventure of attaining God the Father. The transcendent goal of the children of time is to find the eternal God, to comprehend the divine nature, to recognize the Universal Father. God-knowing creatures have only one supreme ambition, just one consuming desire, and that is to become, as they are in their spheres, like him as he is in his Paradise perfection of personality and in his universal sphere of righteous supremacy. From the Universal Father who inhabits eternity there has gone forth the supreme mandate, "Be you perfect, even as I am perfect." In love and mercy the messengers of Paradise have carried this divine exhortation down through the ages and out through the universes, even to such lowly animal-origin creatures as the human races of Urantia.
1:0.4 This magnificent and universal injunction to strive for the attainment of the perfection of divinity is the first duty, and should be the highest ambition, of all the struggling creature creation of the God of perfection. This possibility of the attainment of divine perfection is the final and certain destiny of all man's eternal spiritual progress.
1:0.5 Urantia mortals can hardly hope to be perfect in the infinite sense, but it is entirely possible for human beings, starting out as they do on this planet, to attain the supernal and divine goal which the infinite God has set for mortal man; and when they do achieve this destiny, they will, in all that pertains to self-realization and mind attainment, be just as replete in their sphere of divine perfection as God himself is in his sphere of infinity and eternity. Such perfection may not be universal in the material sense, unlimited in intellectual grasp, or final in spiritual experience, but it is final and complete in all finite aspects of divinity of will, perfection of personality motivation, and God-consciousness.
1:0.6 This is the true meaning of that divine command, "Be you perfect, even as I am perfect," which ever urges mortal man onward and beckons him inward in that long and fascinating struggle for the attainment of higher and higher levels of spiritual values and true universe meanings. This sublime search for the God of universes is the supreme adventure of the inhabitants of all the worlds of time and space.


1. THE FATHER'S NAME
1:1.1 Of all the names by which God the Father is known throughout the universes, those which designate him as the First Source and the Universe Center are most often encountered. The First Father is known by various names in different universes and in different sectors of the same universe. The names which the creature assigns to the Creator are much dependent on the creature's concept of the Creator. The First Source and Universe Center has never revealed himself by name, only by nature. If we believe that we are the children of this Creator, it is only natural that we should eventually call him Father. But this is the name of our own choosing, and it grows out of the recognition of our personal relationship with the First Source and Center.
1:1.2 The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universes. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves -- in their own hearts -- recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father's will is man's choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man's only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father's will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.
1:1.3 When you have once become truly God-conscious, after you really discover the majestic Creator and begin to experience the realization of the indwelling presence of the divine controller, then, in accordance with your enlightenment and in accordance with the manner and method by which the divine Sons reveal God, you will find a name for the Universal Father which will be adequately expressive of your concept of the First Great Source and Center. And so, on different worlds and in various universes, the Creator becomes known by numerous appellations, in spirit of relationship all meaning the same but, in words and symbols, each name standing for the degree, the depth, of his enthronement in the hearts of his creatures of any given realm.

1:1.4 Near the center of the universe of universes, the Universal Father is generally known by names which may be regarded as meaning the First Source. Farther out in the universes of space, the terms employed to designate the Universal Father more often mean the Universal Center. Still farther out in the starry creation, he is known, as on the headquarters world of your local universe, as the First Creative Source and Divine Center. In one near-by constellation God is called the Father of Universes. In another, the Infinite Upholder, and to the east, the Divine Controller. He has also been designated the Father of Lights, the Gift of Life, and the All-powerful One.
1:1.5 On those worlds where a Paradise Son has lived a bestowal life, God is generally known by some name indicative of personal relationship, tender affection, and fatherly devotion. On your constellation headquarters God is referred to as the Universal Father, and on different planets in your local system of inhabited worlds he is variously known as the Father of Fathers, the Paradise Father, the Havona Father, and the Spirit Father. Those who know God through the revelations of the bestowals of the Paradise Sons, eventually yield to the sentimental appeal of the touching relationship of the creature-Creator association and refer to God as "our Father."
1:1.6 On a planet of sex creatures, in a world where the impulses of parental emotion are inherent in the hearts of its intelligent beings, the term Father becomes a very expressive and appropriate name for the eternal God. He is best known, most universally acknowledged, on your planet, Urantia, by the name God. The name he is given is of little importance; the significant thing is that you should know him and aspire to be like him. Your prophets of old truly called him "the everlasting God" and referred to him as the one who "inhabits eternity."


2. THE REALITY OF GOD
1:2.1 God is primal reality in the spirit world; God is the source of truth in the mind spheres; God overshadows all throughout the material realms. To all created intelligences God is a personality, and to the universe of universes he is the First Source and Center of eternal reality. God is neither manlike nor machinelike. The First Father is universal spirit, eternal truth, infinite reality, and father personality.

1:2.2 The eternal God is infinitely more than reality idealized or the universe personalized. God is not simply the supreme desire of man, the mortal quest objectified. Neither is God merely a concept, the power-potential of righteousness. The Universal Father is not a synonym for nature, neither is he natural law personified. God is a transcendent reality, not merely man's traditional concept of supreme values. God is not a psychological focalization of spiritual meanings, neither is he "the noblest work of man." God may be any or all of these concepts in the minds of men, but he is more. He is a saving person and a loving Father to all who enjoy spiritual peace on earth, and who crave to experience personality survival in death.

1:2.3 The actuality of the existence of God is demonstrated in human experience by the indwelling of the divine presence, the spirit Monitor sent from Paradise to live in the mortal mind of man and there to assist in evolving the immortal soul of eternal survival. The presence of this divine Adjuster in the human mind is disclosed by three experiential phenomena:

The intellectual capacity for knowing God -- God-consciousness.
The spiritual urge to find God -- God-seeking.
The personality craving to be like God -- the wholehearted desire to do the Father's will.
1:2.4 The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.
1:2.5 Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father.
1:2.6 In theory you may think of God as the Creator, and he is the personal creator of Paradise and the central universe of perfection, but the universes of time and space are all created and organized by the Paradise corps of the Creator Sons. The Universal Father is not the personal creator of the local universe of Nebadon; the universe in which you live is the creation of his Son Michael. Though the Father does not personally create the evolutionary universes, he does control them in many of their universal relationships and in certain of their manifestations of physical, mindal, and spiritual energies. God the Father is the personal creator of the Paradise universe and, in association with the Eternal Son, the creator of all other personal universe Creators.

1:2.7 As a physical controller in the material universe of universes, the First Source and Center functions in the patterns of the eternal Isle of Paradise, and through this absolute gravity center the eternal God exercises cosmic overcontrol of the physical level equally in the central universe and throughout the universe of universes. As mind, God functions in the Deity of the Infinite Spirit; as spirit, God is manifest in the person of the Eternal Son and in the persons of the divine children of the Eternal Son. This interrelation of the First Source and Center with the co-ordinate Persons and Absolutes of Paradise does not in the least preclude the direct personal action of the Universal Father throughout all creation and on all levels thereof. Through the presence of his fragmentized spirit the Creator Father maintains immediate contact with his creature children and his created universes.


3. GOD IS A UNIVERSAL SPIRIT
1:3.1 "God is spirit." He is a universal spiritual presence. The Universal Father is an infinite spiritual reality; he is "the sovereign, eternal, immortal, invisible, and only true God." Even though you are "the offspring of God," you ought not to think that the Father is like yourselves in form and physique because you are said to be created "in his image" -- indwelt by Mystery Monitors dispatched from the central abode of his eternal presence. Spirit beings are real, notwithstanding they are invisible to human eyes; even though they have not flesh and blood.
1:3.2 Said the seer of old: "Lo, he goes by me, and I see him not; he passes on also, but I perceive him not." We may constantly observe the works of God, we may be highly conscious of the material evidences of his majestic conduct, but rarely may we gaze upon the visible manifestation of his divinity, not even to behold the presence of his delegated spirit of human indwelling.
1:3.3 The Universal Father is not invisible because he is hiding himself away from the lowly creatures of materialistic handicaps and limited spiritual endowments. The situation rather is: "You cannot see my face, for no mortal can see me and live." No material man could behold the spirit God and preserve his mortal existence. The glory and the spiritual brilliance of the divine personality presence is impossible of approach by the lower groups of spirit beings or by any order of material personalities. The spiritual luminosity of the Father's personal presence is a "light which no mortal man can approach; which no material creature has seen or can see." But it is not necessary to see God with the eyes of the flesh in order to discern him by the faith-vision of the spiritualized mind.

1:3.4 The spirit nature of the Universal Father is shared fully with his coexistent self, the Eternal Son of Paradise. Both the Father and the Son in like manner share the universal and eternal spirit fully and unreservedly with their conjoint personality co-ordinate, the Infinite Spirit. God's spirit is, in and of himself, absolute; in the Son it is unqualified, in the Spirit, universal, and in and by all of them, infinite.

1:3.5 God is a universal spirit; God is the universal person. The supreme personal reality of the finite creation is spirit; the ultimate reality of the personal cosmos is absonite spirit. Only the levels of infinity are absolute, and only on such levels is there finality of oneness between matter, mind, and spirit.

1:3.6 In the universes God the Father is, in potential, the overcontroller of matter, mind, and spirit. Only by means of his far-flung personality circuit does God deal directly with the personalities of his vast creation of will creatures, but he is contactable (outside of Paradise) only in the presences of his fragmented entities, the will of God abroad in the universes. This Paradise spirit that indwells the minds of the mortals of time and there fosters the evolution of the immortal soul of the surviving creature is of the nature and divinity of the Universal Father. But the minds of such evolutionary creatures originate in the local universes and must gain divine perfection by achieving those experiential transformations of spiritual attainment which are the inevitable result of a creature's choosing to do the will of the Father in heaven.

1:3.7 In the inner experience of man, mind is joined to matter. Such material-linked minds cannot survive mortal death. The technique of survival is embraced in those adjustments of the human will and those transformations in the mortal mind whereby such a God-conscious intellect gradually becomes spirit taught and eventually spirit led. This evolution of the human mind from matter association to spirit union results in the transmutation of the potentially spirit phases of the mortal mind into the morontia realities of the immortal soul. Mortal mind subservient to matter is destined to become increasingly material and consequently to suffer eventual personality extinction; mind yielded to spirit is destined to become increasingly spiritual and ultimately to achieve oneness with the surviving and guiding divine spirit and in this way to attain survival and eternity of personality existence.

1:3.8 I come forth from the Eternal, and I have repeatedly returned to the presence of the Universal Father. I know of the actuality and personality of the First Source and Center, the Eternal and Universal Father. I know that, while the great God is absolute, eternal, and infinite, he is also good, divine, and gracious. I know the truth of the great declarations: "God is spirit" and "God is love," and these two attributes are most completely revealed to the universe in the Eternal Son.


4. THE MYSTERY OF GOD
1:4.1 The infinity of the perfection of God is such that it eternally constitutes him mystery. And the greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the phenomenon of the divine indwelling of mortal minds. The manner in which the Universal Father sojourns with the creatures of time is the most profound of all universe mysteries; the divine presence in the mind of man is the mystery of mysteries.
1:4.2 The physical bodies of mortals are "the temples of God." Notwithstanding that the Sovereign Creator Sons come near the creatures of their inhabited worlds and "draw all men to themselves"; though they "stand at the door" of consciousness "and knock" and delight to come in to all who will "open the doors of their hearts"; although there does exist this intimate personal communion between the Creator Sons and their mortal creatures, nevertheless, mortal men have something from God himself which actually dwells within them; their bodies are the temples thereof.
1:4.3 When you are through down here, when your course has been run in temporary form on earth, when your trial trip in the flesh is finished, when the dust that composes the mortal tabernacle "returns to the earth whence it came"; then, it is revealed, the indwelling "Spirit shall return to God who gave it." There sojourns within each moral being of this planet a fragment of God, a part and parcel of divinity. It is not yet yours by right of possession, but it is designedly intended to be one with you if you survive the mortal existence.

1:4.4 We are constantly confronted with this mystery of God; we are nonplused by the increasing unfolding of the endless panorama of the truth of his infinite goodness, endless mercy, matchless wisdom, and superb character.

1:4.5 The divine mystery consists in the inherent difference which exists between the finite and the infinite, the temporal and the eternal, the time-space creature and the Universal Creator, the material and the spiritual, the imperfection of man and the perfection of Paradise Deity. The God of universal love unfailingly manifests himself to every one of his creatures up to the fullness of that creature's capacity to spiritually grasp the qualities of divine truth, beauty, and goodness.
1:4.6 To every spirit being and to every mortal creature in every sphere and on every world of the universe of universes, the Universal Father reveals all of his gracious and divine self that can be discerned or comprehended by such spirit beings and by such mortal creatures. God is no respecter of persons, either spiritual or material. The divine presence which any child of the universe enjoys at any given moment is limited only by the capacity of such a creature to receive and to discern the spirit actualities of the supermaterial world.
1:4.7 As a reality in human spiritual experience God is not a mystery. But when an attempt is made to make plain the realities of the spirit world to the physical minds of the material order, mystery appears: mysteries so subtle and so profound that only the faith-grasp of the God-knowing mortal can achieve the philosophic miracle of the recognition of the Infinite by the finite, the discernment of the eternal God by the evolving mortals of the material worlds of time and space.


5. PERSONALITY OF THE UNIVERSAL FATHER
1:5.1 Do not permit the magnitude of God, his infinity, either to obscure or eclipse his personality. "He who planned the ear, shall he not hear? He who formed the eye, shall he not see?" The Universal Father is the acme of divine personality; he is the origin and destiny of personality throughout all creation. God is both infinite and personal; he is an infinite personality. The Father is truly a personality, notwithstanding that the infinity of his person places him forever beyond the full comprehension of material and finite beings.
1:5.2 God is much more than a personality as personality is understood by the human mind; he is even far more than any possible concept of a superpersonality. But it is utterly futile to discuss such incomprehensible concepts of divine personality with the minds of material creatures whose maximum concept of the reality of being consists in the idea and ideal of personality. The material creature's highest possible concept of the Universal Creator is embraced within the spiritual ideals of the exalted idea of divine personality. Therefore, although you may know that God must be much more than the human conception of personality, you equally well know that the Universal Father cannot possibly be anything less than an eternal, infinite, true, good, and beautiful personality.
1:5.3 God is not hiding from any of his creatures. He is unapproachable to so many orders of beings only because he "dwells in a light which no material creature can approach." The immensity and grandeur of the divine personality is beyond the grasp of the unperfected mind of evolutionary mortals. He "measures the waters in the hollow of his hand, measures a universe with the span of his hand. It is he who sits on the circle of the earth, who stretches out the heavens as a curtain and spreads them out as a universe to dwell in." "Lift up your eyes on high and behold who has created all these things, who brings out their worlds by number and calls them all by their names"; and so it is true that "the invisible things of God are partially understood by the things which are made." Today, and as you are, you must discern the invisible Maker through his manifold and diverse creation, as well as through the revelation and ministration of his Sons and their numerous subordinates.
1:5.4 Even though material mortals cannot see the person of God, they should rejoice in the assurance that he is a person; by faith accept the truth which portrays that the Universal Father so loved the world as to provide for the eternal spiritual progression of its lowly inhabitants; that he "delights in his children." God is lacking in none of those superhuman and divine attributes which constitute a perfect, eternal, loving, and infinite Creator personality.

1:5.5 In the local creations (excepting the personnel of the superuniverses) God has no personal or residential manifestation aside from the Paradise Creator Sons who are the fathers of the inhabited worlds and the sovereigns of the local universes. If the faith of the creature were perfect, he would assuredly know that when he had seen a Creator Son he had seen the Universal Father; in seeking for the Father, he would not ask nor expect to see other than the Son. Mortal man simply cannot see God until he achieves completed spirit transformation and actually attains Paradise.
1:5.6 The natures of the Paradise Creator Sons do not encompass all the unqualified potentials of the universal absoluteness of the infinite nature of the First Great Source and Center, but the Universal Father is in every way divinely present in the Creator Sons. The Father and his Sons are one. These Paradise Sons of the order of Michael are perfect personalities, even the pattern for all local universe personality from that of the Bright and Morning Star down to the lowest human creature of progressing animal evolution.

1:5.7 Without God and except for his great and central person, there would be no personality throughout all the vast universe of universes. God is personality.

1:5.8 Notwithstanding that God is an eternal power, a majestic presence, a transcendent ideal, and a glorious spirit, though he is all these and infinitely more, nonetheless, he is truly and everlastingly a perfect Creator personality, a person who can "know and be known," who can "love and be loved," and one who can befriend us; while you can be known, as other humans have been known, as the friend of God. He is a real spirit and a spiritual reality.
1:5.9 As we see the Universal Father revealed throughout his universe; as we discern him indwelling his myriads of creatures; as we behold him in the persons of his Sovereign Sons; as we continue to sense his divine presence here and there, near and afar, let us not doubt nor question his personality primacy. Notwithstanding all these far-flung distributions, he remains a true person and everlastingly maintains personal connection with the countless hosts of his creatures scattered throughout the universe of universes.

1:5.10 The idea of the personality of the Universal Father is an enlarged and truer concept of God which has come to mankind chiefly through revelation. Reason, wisdom, and religious experience all infer and imply the personality of God, but they do not altogether validate it. Even the indwelling Thought Adjuster is prepersonal. The truth and maturity of any religion is directly proportional to its concept of the infinite personality of God and to its grasp of the absolute unity of Deity. The idea of a personal Deity becomes, then, the measure of religious maturity after religion has first formulated the concept of the unity of God.
1:5.11 Primitive religion had many personal gods, and they were fashioned in the image of man. Revelation affirms the validity of the personality concept of God which is merely possible in the scientific postulate of a First Cause and is only provisionally suggested in the philosophic idea of Universal Unity. Only by personality approach can any person begin to comprehend the unity of God. To deny the personality of the First Source and Center leaves one only the choice of two philosophic dilemmas: materialism or pantheism.
1:5.12 In the contemplation of Deity, the concept of personality must be divested of the idea of corporeality. A material body is not indispensable to personality in either man or God. The corporeality error is shown in both extremes of human philosophy. In materialism, since man loses his body at death, he ceases to exist as a personality; in pantheism, since God has no body, he is not, therefore, a person. The superhuman type of progressing personality functions in a union of mind and spirit.

1:5.13 Personality is not simply an attribute of God; it rather stands for the totality of the co-ordinated infinite nature and the unified divine will which is exhibited in eternity and universality of perfect expression. Personality, in the supreme sense, is the revelation of God to the universe of universes.

1:5.14 God, being eternal, universal, absolute, and infinite, does not grow in knowledge nor increase in wisdom. God does not acquire experience, as finite man might conjecture or comprehend, but he does, within the realms of his own eternal personality, enjoy those continuous expansions of self-realization which are in certain ways comparable to, and analogous with, the acquirement of new experience by the finite creatures of the evolutionary worlds.
1:5.15 The absolute perfection of the infinite God would cause him to suffer the awful limitations of unqualified finality of perfectness were it not a fact that the Universal Father directly participates in the personality struggle of every imperfect soul in the wide universe who seeks, by divine aid, to ascend to the spiritually perfect worlds on high. This progressive experience of every spirit being and every mortal creature throughout the universe of universes is a part of the Father's ever-expanding Deity-consciousness of the never-ending divine circle of ceaseless self-realization.
1:5.16 It is literally true: "In all your afflictions he is afflicted." "In all your triumphs he triumphs in and with you." His prepersonal divine spirit is a real part of you. The Isle of Paradise responds to all the physical metamorphoses of the universe of universes; the Eternal Son includes all the spirit impulses of all creation; the Conjoint Actor encompasses all the mind expression of the expanding cosmos. The Universal Father realizes in the fullness of the divine consciousness all the individual experience of the progressive struggles of the expanding minds and the ascending spirits of every entity, being, and personality of the whole evolutionary creation of time and space. And all this is literally true, for "in him we all live and move and have our being."


6. PERSONALITY IN THE UNIVERSE
1:6.1 Human personality is the time-space image-shadow cast by the divine Creator personality. And no actuality can ever be adequately comprehended by an examination of its shadow. Shadows should be interpreted in terms of the true substance.

1:6.2 God is to science a cause, to philosophy an idea, to religion a person, even the loving heavenly Father. God is to the scientist a primal force, to the philosopher a hypothesis of unity, to the religionist a living spiritual experience. Man's inadequate concept of the personality of the Universal Father can be improved only by man's spiritual progress in the universe and will become truly adequate only when the pilgrims of time and space finally attain the divine embrace of the living God on Paradise.
1:6.3 Never lose sight of the antipodal viewpoints of personality as it is conceived by God and man. Man views and comprehends personality, looking from the finite to the infinite; God looks from the infinite to the finite. Man possesses the lowest type of personality; God, the highest, even supreme, ultimate, and absolute. Therefore did the better concepts of the divine personality have patiently to await the appearance of improved ideas of human personality, especially the enhanced revelation of both human and divine personality in the Urantian bestowal life of Michael, the Creator Son.

1:6.4 The prepersonal divine spirit which indwells the mortal mind carries, in its very presence, the valid proof of its actual existence, but the concept of the divine personality can be grasped only by the spiritual insight of genuine personal religious experience. Any person, human or divine, may be known and comprehended quite apart from the external reactions or the material presence of that person.
1:6.5 Some degree of moral affinity and spiritual harmony is essential to friendship between two persons; a loving personality can hardly reveal himself to a loveless person. Even to approach the knowing of a divine personality, all of man's personality endowments must be wholly consecrated to the effort; halfhearted, partial devotion will be unavailing.
1:6.6 The more completely man understands himself and appreciates the personality values of his fellows, the more he will crave to know the Original Personality, and the more earnestly such a God-knowing human will strive to become like the Original Personality. You can argue over opinions about God, but experience with him and in him exists above and beyond all human controversy and mere intellectual logic. The God-knowing man describes his spiritual experiences, not to convince unbelievers, but for the edification and mutual satisfaction of believers.

1:6.7 To assume that the universe can be known, that it is intelligible, is to assume that the universe is mind made and personality managed. Man's mind can only perceive the mind phenomena of other minds, be they human or superhuman. If man's personality can experience the universe, there is a divine mind and an actual personality somewhere concealed in that universe.

1:6.8 God is spirit -- spirit personality; man is also a spirit -- potential spirit personality. Jesus of Nazareth attained the full realization of this potential of spirit personality in human experience; therefore his life of achieving the Father's will becomes man's most real and ideal revelation of the personality of God. Even though the personality of the Universal Father can be grasped only in actual religious experience, in Jesus' earth life we are inspired by the perfect demonstration of such a realization and revelation of the personality of God in a truly human experience.


7. SPIRITUAL VALUE OF THE PERSONALITY CONCEPT
1:7.1 When Jesus talked about "the living God," he referred to a personal Deity -- the Father in heaven. The concept of the personality of Deity facilitates fellowship; it favors intelligent worship; it promotes refreshing trustfulness. Interactions can be had between nonpersonal things, but not fellowship. The fellowship relation of father and son, as between God and man, cannot be enjoyed unless both are persons. Only personalities can commune with each other, albeit this personal communion may be greatly facilitated by the presence of just such an impersonal entity as the Thought Adjuster.
1:7.2 Man does not achieve union with God as a drop of water might find unity with the ocean. Man attains divine union by progressive reciprocal spiritual communion, by personality intercourse with the personal God, by increasingly attaining the divine nature through wholehearted and intelligent conformity to the divine will. Such a sublime relationship can exist only between personalities.

1:7.3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, the concept of beauty may exist without personality, but the concept of divine goodness is understandable only in relation to personality. Only a person can love and be loved. Even beauty and truth would be divorced from survival hope if they were not attributes of a personal God, a loving Father.

1:7.4 We cannot fully understand how God can be primal, changeless, all-powerful, and perfect, and at the same time be surrounded by an ever-changing and apparently law-limited universe, an evolving universe of relative imperfections. But we can know such a truth in our own personal experience since we all maintain identity of personality and unity of will in spite of the constant changing of both ourselves and our environment.
1:7.5 Ultimate universe reality cannot be grasped by mathematics, logic, or philosophy, only by personal experience in progressive conformity to the divine will of a personal God. Neither science, philosophy, nor theology can validate the personality of God. Only the personal experience of the faith sons of the heavenly Father can effect the actual spiritual realization of the personality of God.

1:7.6 The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation. And these characteristics further imply fellowship with other and equal personalities, such as exists in the personality associations of the Paradise Deities. And the absolute unity of these associations is so perfect that divinity becomes known by indivisibility, by oneness. "The Lord God is one." Indivisibility of personality does not interfere with God's bestowing his spirit to live in the hearts of mortal men. Indivisibility of a human father's personality does not prevent the reproduction of mortal sons and daughters.
1:7.7 This concept of indivisibility in association with the concept of unity implies transcendence of both time and space by the Ultimacy of Deity; therefore neither space nor time can be absolute or infinite. The First Source and Center is that infinity who unqualifiedly transcends all mind, all matter, and all spirit.
1:7.8 The fact of the Paradise Trinity in no manner violates the truth of the divine unity. The three personalities of Paradise Deity are, in all universe reality reactions and in all creature relations, as one. Neither does the existence of these three eternal persons violate the truth of the indivisibility of Deity. I am fully aware that I have at my command no language adequate to make clear to the mortal mind how these universe problems appear to us. But you should not become discouraged; not all of these things are wholly clear to even the high personalities belonging to my group of Paradise beings. Ever bear in mind that these profound truths pertaining to Deity will increasingly clarify as your minds become progressively spiritualized during the successive epochs of the long mortal ascent to Paradise.

there is more @ http://www.ubook.org/upapers/

on the nature of the 'God' and on deity. :~) Amp

 

[Avatar]

That's quite a reply

But I couldn't help noticing tht all those statements were not even covered by a bit of facts to prove thm.
There is a huge list of statements, they say all and at the same time nothing.
I took the following quote in random

1:1.1 Of all the names by which God the Father is known throughout the universes, those which designate him as the First Source and the Universe Center are most often encountered. The First Father is known by various names in different universes and in different sectors of the same universe. The names which the creature assigns to the Creator are much dependent on the creature's concept of the Creator. The First Source and Universe Center has never revealed himself by name, only by nature. If we believe that we are the children of this Creator, it is only natural that we should eventually call him Father. But this is the name of our own choosing, and it grows out of the recognition of our personal relationship with the First Source and Center.

What universes are there being refered.
how do you know he is known in all universes by all cultures. Can you name atleast one outer-solar advanced culture?

So there are a bunch of things, but none of them may be considered as a charecteristic of a god, because no vertified proof (example) is given.

Although I understand tht these statements are not made by you, more personal input would be really appreciated.

and btw, Welcome to Sciforums Amp!

 

[Amp]

Greetings Avatar

You are right there is no proof in the sense of materially observable phenomena. Thats a side point. My search started in Christianity, I studied some Taoism, Islam, Buddism. I started to consider what would be what we - mortals - might call properties of God. Before I started studing the Ubook, I concluded that for 'God' to be alone with none beside it, 1.'God' must have been the only thing,object,whatever before the universe as we know it and as we don't know it. 2. 'God' was before anything we could remotely conceive of as Time. 3. That the creation must exist within 'God' - ie. 'God' is like the blackboard and the universe is drawn on the board- I got that idea after reading something on Foam Theory. 4. It follows we exist in 'God' and of 'God' meaning 'God' is also in us. - that helped me to comprehend why and how 'God' knows everything we do. I thought of 'God' in terms of this analogy 'God'= singularity, the limits of what we are able to deduce or know with out revalation = event horizon. I hope that helps you see where I am coming from, shortly afterward the Ubook happened to catch my attention, I almost didn't look at it because it discussed trinity concepts. Then I saw the concepts it talked about were not like those of the other organized religions. And I noticed it really explained rather than suggest everything it potrayed be simply accepted. The message it gives and continues to give is the brother/sister hood of all people in the Father God. There is more read it for yourself because I believe the truth withstands criticism. :~) Amp

 

[Avatar]

As for me I have studied Christianity (was forced to) , Buddhism, Hinduism and different pagan beleifs (ancient civilizations are my hobby so I have studied Egyptian , Greek, Baltic, many C European , Scandinavian etc etc. myths, history, society and religions)
Because I didn't find anything suitable for me and after a sort of a period of atheism I felt emotionally and spiritually drained and am too scientifical and logical thinking I made up my own belief system consisting of a mix of pagan and my own unique charecteristics - my beleifs put no restrictions on me. genetics, cloning, human evolution to gods, aliens, teleportation, different dimensions, killing of people tht is all alowed for me, I put myself in no preaarenged frames.
Cheers!

 

[Amp]

Well Avatar,

thats quite a list, I did leave out that I've read some Wiccan writings. I'm intrigued by how well the reed and the golden rule go together - 'An it does no harm do what ye will' & 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. I studing the Ubook because it still is answering my questions and it is inclusive of evolution ,in fact, it explains the purpose in several spheres of existence. peace :~) AMP

 

[Avatar]

in fact, as you refer "the U book" I suppose it is "unitarian" for "u", doesn't give any answers for me because of the lack of evidence-> I can not blindy believe everything that is told.

Cheers!

 

[Tiassa]

Amp ... for your consideration

I'm intrigued by how well the reed and the golden rule go together - 'An it does no harm do what ye will' & 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'

I would assert a closer tie between the Rede and Hillel's Golden Rule, as opposed to the Christian permutation: Do not do unto others as you would not have done unto yourself.

Merely, the affirmative, common Golden Rule encourages all sorts of doing unto others: cultural blanching, forced conversions, Crusades ... anyone remember the Interventionist '80s with its cottage industries against addiction?

Sometimes to do unto others as you would have done unto yourself is an arrogance: one does not wish to be left out in a condition that their opinion speaks of as negative, therefore they do not wish to leave anyone out in that condition. It's covered Biblically in Matthew 25, that to fail to minister to the sick, the weary, the imprisoned, and so forth, can result in a forfeiture of the soul to condemnation;. In either of these lights, I tend to see the common golden rule (Do unto others) as greedy and self-serving.

Does the Rede, for instance, permit you to cause someone harm in actuality merely because you believe it to be a good thing? It does not; it expects you to understand the limitations of human individuality. The negating Golden Rule (Do not ...) respects this individuality far better than the presumption of the right to intervene.

How many generations of kids smoked a cigarette or sneaked a drink after school? In the 80s, being caught in this age-old ritual usually meant some sort of therapy; a whole generation was indoctrinated into the meddling, assumptive attitude of the Golden Rule.

For instance, child labor abroad: Sure, as the economic theory goes, these kids at least have a chance to help their families stave off starvation. To the other, in light of Hillel's Golden Rule (Do not ...), Americans treat people abroad as cattle; subsistence hand to mouth is a good thing. How would we like it if our daily labors were only worth enough to barely keep our children alive? We have done unto others, and ignored the harm it causes. Does this mean that this is what we wish others to do unto us? Go spend your ten hours in the shop each day and at the end of the week have twenty dollars to cover rent, food, heat, clothes, and any transportation needs you have ... but since we Do Unto Others, we ought to be proud that we're keeping these people from starving, right?

It seems a minor semantic distinction, but the application thereof has shown it to be a critical, even vital difference.

That's my two cents, and I hereby return the topic to its primary subject.

thanx much,
Tiassa

 

[Bebelina]

I´m just so amazed that many of you writes so many and so looong post. You could probably have written several books by now.
:bugeye:

 

[Teg]

With God All Things Are Possible

In essence: If you believe in a god you are probably willing to buy anything.

 

[Amp]

Thanks Tiassa point well taken.

Teg short answer no. Avatar the U in Ubook is 'Urantia' which has been sardonically refered to as 'YOU RANT' which very well may be true. The tone of the Ubook impresses me with the gravity of its message and the claims of commission and authorship. What fascinates me is the descriptions and explanations of a fully thought out creation and sharing in so far as the infinite may be shared, I sense what to me is something akin to a desire for all sentient life to have the fullest opportunity to realize its highest potential. PEACE & LOVE :~) Amp

 

[Adam]

I wouldn't be surprised if all these things such as "an it harm none, do what ye will", and "do unto others blah blah blah", are all just recent twists on Hippocrates. Something like 400 BC.

Primum est non nocere. = First of all, do no harm.

 

[Avatar]

and if you do then, do it good, so you won't receive a richochet (sp)

 

[Avatar]

Teg-> In essence: If you believe in a god you are probably willing to buy anything.

Yes that's right!. But I do not understand why then "believers" don't believe in positive sides of cloning, human evolution into some higher life-form?
They have no immagination, but to beleive what was told them some 2000 or more years ago. thay have restricted themselves with narrow point of view and are afraid tht their little world may collapse if further evolment of our species takes place.

 

[Urbaniteman]

Yes that's right!. But I do not understand why then "believers" don't believe in positive sides of cloning, human evolution into some higher life-form?
They have no immagination, but to beleive what was told them some 2000 or more years ago. thay have restricted themselves with narrow point of view and are afraid tht their little world may collapse if further evolment of our species takes place.

Bravo- I agree and have agreed for my entire adult life. I live in the heart of the Bible belt and you are the only other 'soul' I have ever found to say such a thing. Everyone I know whom I've shared thoughts of this type, look at me like I'm the anti-christ. I just want the Human species and our legacy to be better than it is, or has been throughout history.

This should probably be another thread but which is more likely,

That there is a god and it appeared to hundreds, and maybe thousands of different cultures in a different way, so different that war and sin manifested from these differences or

That inventing a diety is a natural process in human societies to deal with issues that are hard to swallow like death, and suffering, and morality.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

Pulled from the bowles of oblivion. Somebody flush next time please.

 

[Urbaniteman]

Pulled from the bowles of oblivion. Somebody flush next time please.

That's it? Flush? If you don't agree, or if you do, add to the thread. Worthless jabs mean nothing. Articulate what it is that you find disagreeable.

 

[MShark]

I do not see how cloning could posibly have anything to do with evolution. From what I understand of evolution the human spieces will not evolve any further until segments of the population become isolated and are put under high stress or if selective breeding is practiced. With our fantastic medical advances we are now going through the oppisite of survival of the fittest. As far as I am aware dominant spieces don't usually evolve.