Defining what is God.

[lightgigantic]

KennyJC

Yes, an emotional experience perhaps, amongst the already delusional.

you could perhaps also be delusional - just like th ehigh school drop out

When I read details of religion and the suffering of martyrs like Jesus, and what god wants from us, and so on... I confess it stirs up emotions. I can only imagine what it must be like for people who believe this crap in the first place.

note the similar sentiments a high school drop out may express regarding an electron

And my fundamental point is how do you get agnostic scientists, with an open mind to read details by saintly persons (HEHE) and verify it's truth?

In the first case, the reading thing is quite easy, provided they have th e intellectual stamina to deal with a book - as for the second case thats the same as any other field of applied knowledge (namely the verifying comes from "applying")

They may come away with some respect, interest, provoked emotions... but how is this in any way proof either way of the existence of god? If god doesn't exist, then what does that say for people who have followed this 'process' and believed in god?

I answered this in the previous post (if you don't have the sufficient stamina to fulfill the first case criteria its not hopelful of you approaching the second)

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: Please prove to us that a creator god exists. The onus is on you. There is no "god." There is no "savior." You are grasping at straws. You beliefs are futile.

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: Please prove to us that a creator god exists. The onus is on you. There is no "god." There is no "savior." You are grasping at straws. You beliefs are futile.

maybe you could help me by establishing how to prove to a high school drop out that views all scientists as "egg heads" and the books on science as "full of crap" that an electron exists???

 

[Medicine*Woman]

maybe you could help me by establishing how to prove to a high school drop out that views all scientists as "egg heads" and the books on science as "full of crap" that an electron exists???

*************
M*W: I'm sorry you are an "high school dropout." Scientists are "egg heads" by their very nature. That's their job. I must tell you that I am in the league of the scientists, so I don't have must sympathy for high school dropouts. You should study more, even if you're a "high school dropout." A degree means nothing. You can still learn and grow without any degree. There are many intelligent people on this forum who don't have degrees. Read, and learn. That's all you need to do. I've learned more from sciforums than I learned in college or medical school. This is the place to learn the important stuff. I'm glad you're here. Pay attention. Sciforums is where I got my degree, not real life. There is so much to learn, and you are on your way. Be patient, and read. Read. Read.

 

[TW Scott]

TW,

Please don’t be such a condescending prat.

Intersting how you ad hominem your way out of that question. Ah no matter you answered it fully enough to serve my purposes.

Gee, you really are an arrogant condescending prat aren’t you. How the heck does a naïve school kid like you think they get away with such arrogant BS?

Again that ad hominem attacks when I point out what could be a potential flaww in the reasoning given.

So you can go suck eggs as well.

Oh, so you were not only not aware of the definition but simply are not mature enough to accept your error.

So are you saying that someone who believes a god created the universe will also believe that a god didn’t create the universe. Make up your mind. Once you assert one idea as truth you automatically lock yourself out to alternatives – that is being close minded.

I was trying to explain that not all Theists are alike, but then again I don't expect you to be able differentiate, it would screw up you view of the cosmos.

More condescending and arrogant BS. Stop doing that.

Ah yes another ad hominem attack. Sad really.

Read what you are saying. It is the theist that asserts the conviction that a god exists and there is no alternative and can’t be wrong. You seem to have your argument totally reversed.

No, see a Theist believes their god exists. They do not make such a concrete claim like Atheists do. I am a good Lutheran and a fervently believe in my God and Saviour, I have slightly different views than church norm, but in the end it is a belief.

I don’t think you understand atheism either, do you? Try this link so we can begin your education -

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=26679

[/QUOTE]

Oh I understand Atheism better than any current Atheist, I used to be one, untill I looked at my faith. Atheism is the belief thtat there is not God(s) that there is no higher power. It is the religion of chance, everything only happens through chance. It is a sad denomination. You can try to refute this, but in the end you will realize this.

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: I'm sorry you are an "high school dropout." Scientists are "egg heads" by their very nature. That's their job. I must tell you that I am in the league of the scientists, so I don't have must sympathy for high school dropouts. You should study more, even if you're a "high school dropout." A degree means nothing. You can still learn and grow without any degree. There are many intelligent people on this forum who don't have degrees. Read, and learn. That's all you need to do. I've learned more from sciforums than I learned in college or medical school. This is the place to learn the important stuff. I'm glad you're here. Pay attention. Sciforums is where I got my degree, not real life. There is so much to learn, and you are on your way. Be patient, and read. Read. Read.

i appreciate your sentiment but I am already sufficiently educated - actually the high school drop out was an analogy to further the examine th e difficulty in establishing something as evidence towards someone who has an attitude problem. ( I am neither a high school drop out or a disbeliever of the electron)
the key to making a successful point in debate is attentive reading of the other party's comment

 

[KennyJC]

KennyJC

you could perhaps also be delusional - just like th ehigh school drop out


note the similar sentiments a high school drop out may express regarding an electron


In the first case, the reading thing is quite easy, provided they have th e intellectual stamina to deal with a book - as for the second case thats the same as any other field of applied knowledge (namely the verifying comes from "applying")

I answered this in the previous post (if you don't have the sufficient stamina to fulfill the first case criteria its not hopelful of you approaching the second)

You didn't answer this: If god doesn't exist, then what does that say for people who have followed this 'process' and believed in god?

 

[lightgigantic]

You didn't answer this: If god doesn't exist, then what does that say for people who have followed this 'process' and believed in god?

why the same thing it says about people who haven't followed the 'process' and believed in god if god does exist.


(just like what if the scientists are wrong and the high school drop out is right)

(BTW judging from your and MW's comments i am beginning to wonder if atheists suffer from extremely short attention spans in regard to the written word ....)

 

[KennyJC]

why the same thing it says about people who haven't followed the 'process' and believed in god if god does exist.

It means that the emotional practice was just that.

It's funny though, when we have had scientific debates, I will always explain as much as possible why for example, evolution is true. All you seem to do in religious debates is go on about this vague mysterious 'process' by 'saintly persons'. At least give me a paragraph going into the sort of thing this 'process' is about.

 

[KennyJC]

Also, it's funny how I predicted you would not entertain the non-existence of god in the question I posted. Why can't you do this? I can easily entertain gods existence, so I don't understand...

 

[lightgigantic]

It means that the emotional practice was just that.

Therefore it is better not to be an emmotional atheist or theist but a philosophical one

It's funny though, when we have had scientific debates, I will always explain as much as possible why for example, evolution is true. All you seem to do in religious debates is go on about this vague mysterious 'process' by 'saintly persons'. At least give me a paragraph going into the sort of thing this 'process' is about.

2749 posts and you are the first one to ask this question.

i have given an indication here
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1244346&postcount=58

 

[lightgigantic]

Also, it's funny how I predicted you would not entertain the non-existence of god in the question I posted. Why can't you do this? I can easily entertain gods existence, so I don't understand...

there is nothing much to entertain about the notion of god's non-existence - even in terms of atheistic philosophy they only have something to talk about in regards to how they perceive theists are getting it wrong - atheism writes white

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: Bonk me, please bonk me. Is it open-minded to deny a creator? No way, Jose. There is no "creator" just like there is no "savior." Get a life, dude.

out of curiousity, what did jesus do (or more correctly, not do) for you to insist that there is no saviour - what were you expecting him to sav eyou from before he (apparently) stood you up?

 

[geeser]

Oh I understand Atheism better than any current Atheist, I used to be one,

sorry sir you are a lier, or just mistaken, what you profess, is impossible, unless you had an head injury, or you got that bonk on the head, you keep talking about, tis the only way.

if you feel this is an ad hom, sorry your wrong it's a fact.

 

[KennyJC]

i have given an indication here
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.ph...6&postcount=58

Yes, interesting philosophy at best... but hardly an indiction either way that god is actually there is it?

there is nothing much to entertain about the notion of god's non-existence - even in terms of atheistic philosophy they only have something to talk about in regards to how they perceive theists are getting it wrong - atheism writes white

Again, philosophy, wether it be theistic or atheistic, is no indication either way that god is there or not. And the reason why it should be something you should entertain is that you apparently have religion as a big part of your life, and if god isn't there, then it should be something to contemplate what you are doing with your life. I am capable of entertaining god is there, but strange how the theist just doesn't want to think about it, or talk about it.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

out of curiousity, what did jesus do (or more correctly, not do) for you to insist that there is no saviour - what were you expecting him to save you from before he (apparently) stood you up?

*************
M*W: What did Jesus NOT do for me? For one thing, he didn't exist. He was a fictional character. For a time, I believed in his existence and that everything in the bible was true, but christianity just didn't gel. There were too many cracks in it to be believable. At one time, I needed to believe. It was my own religious addiction, but I freed myself from it's evil clutches, and got a life!

But to answer your question, Jesus didn't stand me up, I stood-up the lie and was finally able to claim a life free of religious control.

 

[SkinWalker]

maybe you could help me by establishing how to prove to a high school drop out that views all scientists as "egg heads" and the books on science as "full of crap" that an electron exists???

You're still going on with this strawman argument? Instead of answering the question directly, the only recourse the religious believer will ever have is to use obfuscation and fallacy. At least you aren't plagiarizing anymore (that I've been able to tell). But obfuscations like the one above are intellectually dishonest. This is because the above fallacy assumes that certain religious adherents have some "knowledge" that actually exists that is beyond the capability of the non-religious. Yet, this knowledge remains conveniently "hidden" from the non-religious because they aren't "qualified to know."

Complete and utter bullshit. The high-school drop out argument has been thoroughly debunked and thrown back in your face, yet you continue as though you aren't being dishonest. That, my friend, is dishonesty in and of itself.

But, if you need to have a convenient way out of using reason and critical thought, I suppose dishonesty is all you have.

 

[TheVisitor]

Yet, this knowledge remains conveniently "hidden" from the non-religious because they aren't "qualified to know."
Instead of answering the question directly, the only recourse the religious believer will ever have is to use obfuscation and fallacy...
Complete and utter bullshit.

Again, philosophy, whether it be theistic or atheistic, is no indication either way that god is there or not.

sorry sir you are a lier, or just mistaken, what you profess, is impossible, unless you had an head injury, or you got that bonk on the head, you keep talking about, tis the only way.

*************
M*W: Please prove to us that a creator god exists. The onus is on you. There is no "god." There is no "savior." You are grasping at straws. You beliefs are futile.

Resistance is ...futile.
You will be ...assimilated.
Please prove....
It's hidden...that's so not fair...
Philosophy.....
This other guy don't know who he's talking to....I'm the one got the bonk on the head.....


Maybe they should "pray a little louder", "cut themselves some more" or something like that.....
Their God might just be away, on vacation...it is christmas time you know, lotta people traveling out there.
You know what I'm talking about...LG

They want to prove there is no God.
Someone in their position, that would be the ultimate goal,.... yes.
HEBREWS 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

They are trying to disprove the one true God, the God of Heaven and Earth, the God of all creation....without whom they wouldn't even exist.....
"Thy faith has made thee whole"
Doesn't leave them much to stand on does it now?

There are many gods....but only one true God.
Let me talk to them for five minites, see the way they decorate their office, or what kind of books they read.....
I'll tell them who their god is.
It might be money, popularity, fame, women, notoriety, science, ect....


Man was created with an empty place inside him, a "hole" for God to fill.
Kind of like a woman for a man.
They will worship something...whether they want to or not.
If God isn't there, I guarantee something else is.

Maybe a lot of something else's.
"That by which you are brought into bondage, the same becomes your master."

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: What did Jesus NOT do for me? For one thing, he didn't exist. He was a fictional character. For a time, I believed in his existence and that everything in the bible was true, but christianity just didn't gel. There were too many cracks in it to be believable. At one time, I needed to believe. It was my own religious addiction, but I freed myself from it's evil clutches, and got a life!

But to answer your question, Jesus didn't stand me up, I stood-up the lie and was finally able to claim a life free of religious control.

thats ok but what was jesus supposed to do for you that he didn't do that resulted in you washing your hands of the whole thing - what was the straw that broke the camels back?

Yes, interesting philosophy at best... but hardly an indiction either way that god is actually there is it?

correct - thats why I mentioned earlier that explanation and logic can only bring one to the point of applying the process to know god - logic is necessary but not sufficient for any type of applied or experiential knowledge - if it wasn't (ie if one could 'know' simply by reading a book and doing absolutely nothing) it wouldn't be called 'applied' or 'experiential'

Again, philosophy, wether it be theistic or atheistic, is no indication either way that god is there or not. And the reason why it should be something you should entertain is that you apparently have religion as a big part of your life, and if god isn't there, then it should be something to contemplate what you are doing with your life.

No

Its because applied knowledge requires that it be 'applied' in order to grant the goods

I am capable of entertaining god is there, but strange how the theist just doesn't want to think about it, or talk about it.

of course I can conceive of the signifigance of a godless world view - if it appears that i am not thinking about it in my responses is because you guys seem to prefer personal attacks, stereotypes theistic depictions and quick one liners (including our epidermis flapping mod) as opposed to discussing anything of philosophical merit that an atheistic world view grants.
You could try completing this - "The benefits of athesim is that it grants ....." - this would be an introduction to enabling a comparison of values, if that is what you are in to

 

[lightgigantic]

You're still going on with this strawman argument? Instead of answering the question directly, the only recourse the religious believer will ever have is to use obfuscation and fallacy. At least you aren't plagiarizing anymore (that I've been able to tell). But obfuscations like the one above are intellectually dishonest. This is because the above fallacy assumes that certain religious adherents have some "knowledge" that actually exists that is beyond the capability of the non-religious. Yet, this knowledge remains conveniently "hidden" from the non-religious because they aren't "qualified to know."

Complete and utter bullshit. The high-school drop out argument has been thoroughly debunked and thrown back in your face, yet you continue as though you aren't being dishonest. That, my friend, is dishonesty in and of itself.

But, if you need to have a convenient way out of using reason and critical thought, I suppose dishonesty is all you have.

sorry I must have lost your previous grand refutation of the high school drop out analogy amongst your copious ad homs - perhaps you could be so kind as to repeat it



PS - there is no need to repeat the ad homs ..... but if you insist on reducing your clarity here is a quick and easy reference chart of symbols you can post instead which may help matters

!!1A - dishonest
!!1B - plaguarizing
!!1Aa - intellectually dishonest
!!2A - bullshit
!!2B - poppy cock
!!2Aa - complete and utter bullshit
!!2Bb - complete and utter poppycock

I think that about covers it