Defining Astrology Scientifically!

I am still under the impression "Read only", that we can recieve many electromagnetic (radio waves) waves from space. Mankind has been recieving radio waves and microwaves and lots of other wave types from space for years. We are after all talking about Radio waves here right?

www.depts.drew.edu/govschl/GSS_2002/gss_2002_final/team2_final.pdf -

Nothing to do with magnetic fields, or gravity.

I also said I am not saying VEGA is right. I am saying I am open to the possibiliity that he is right until I believe otherwise. I guess I'm just not as advanced intellectually as some of you yet, that I can blow off something without looking into it. I hope I can gain that kind of insight, so I can forget about scientific theory altogether.

I am saying
- if radio waves come from our planets. (they do, and it has nothing to do with little alien HAM radio operators).

- and if Extremely low frequency (ELF) radio waves can affect moods as is purported by many sources (google search "ELF / frequencies/ MOOD " for 180000 hits, I am sure one of them is probably even science based.

Then it is possible that a combined radio waves intercepting and resonating within our ionosphere could allow credence to Astrology in at least some form.

So argue all you want, the facts seem to point towards Astrology.

But then again ??? Just food for thought really.

No, I'm not at all arguing against electromagnetic radiation - my argument is against simple magnetic fields or gravitational fields from other planets and or stars. Also, there's nothing to indicate that EMF radiation from extraterrestrial sources can cause any type of "resonating" in our atmosphere. In fact, that term doesn't make any sense at all. Even the solar wind which causes the nice Aurora Borealis's display is simply acting in conjunction with the Earth's magnetic field and isn't generating any kind of 'resonating' effects. Actually, I rather think that people use that term without any real understanding of what it means.

And I don't just dismiss things out-of-hand except when there's no demonstrable basis for their claims - like astrology. It belongs in the same compartment with reading tea-leaves, the bumps on your head, communicating with the dead, and all the other wishful-thinking fairy tale stuff. One key to their scam is that astrologers hedge everything they say in very general terms, so certainly some of it is going to appear to come true. And that's what people tend to remember - and they completely forget it's failures. Why? Because they WANT to believe it's true.;)
 
Now I have to defend tea leaves? lol, lets leave that for another thread. o.k.

O.K. I said this in post number 12, but here it is again.

The air is a poor conducter and is surrounded by the earth below (good conductor), and the E region above. This makes a resonant system, and any energy (storms/radio waves/etc.) affecting the interior causes it to ring (and I'll add like a BELL).

I believe that concept came from Nikola Tesla, but I am unsure at the moment.

O.K. forget that. A) We recieve radio waves from our planets and B)radio waves seem to have the possibility to affect moods.

possibilities everyone. Now about those tea leaves....
 
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Now I have to defend tea leaves? lol, lets leave that for another thread. o.k.

O.K. I said this in post number 12, but here it is again.

The air is a poor conducter and is surrounded by the earth below (good conductor), and the E region above. This makes a resonant system, and any energy (storms/radio waves/etc.) affecting the interior causes it to ring (and I'll add like a BELL).

I believe that concept came from Nikola Tesla, but I am unsure at the moment.

O.K. forget that. A) We recieve radio waves from our planets and B)radio waves seem to have the possibility to affect moods.

possibilities everyone. Now about those tea leaves....

Many household appliances have strong EMF and RF output. Just by simple proximity they are going to be much stronger than anything received on the surface of this planet from another one. Do household appliances have an effect on mood ?

Astrology has never been able to make any predictions that have been shown to be better than random guess work.
 
Yes. According to what I have read, household appliances could affect your mood.

Do we need to argue that now?

Especially things in the 7.8 hertz range, probably more prevelant in the Hum of items (auditory) than in the presence of radio waves..

Also music (beats per minute nearing that range), and video screens flickering in or near that range.

I think I put up a pretty good argument for Astrology, but I cannot say much more than I already have without being overly repetitive.
 
Yes. According to what I have read, household appliances could affect your mood.

Please, provide us all with that bit of peer-reviewed knowledge via a citation to the author of the study and the journal from whence it appeared. We would all like to say we read something as revealing and important.

I think I put up a pretty good argument for Astrology, but I cannot say much more than I already have without being overly repetitive.

You put up an argument? By making some spurious and unfounded correlations? Perhaps you'd like to look back through those assertions and show us how they are based in science. Just add some citations to ones you find the most significant.
 
Yes. According to what I have read, household appliances could affect your mood.

Do we need to argue that now?

Especially things in the 7.8 hertz range, probably more prevelant in the Hum of items (auditory) than in the presence of radio waves..

Also music (beats per minute nearing that range), and video screens flickering in or near that range.

You could cite a reputable source. I'm certainly not going to accept that appliances effect my mood/thinking/future without some strong evidence.

I think I put up a pretty good argument for Astrology, but I cannot say much more than I already have without being overly repetitive.

How about citing a source for an Astrologer who has consistently made accurate predictions? So far you've done nothing but spout unsupported conjecture about magnetism and radio waves.

Edit: beaten by Skinwalker by mere seconds.
 
What the (Heck) is wrong with what VEGA said? I am not saying he is right, I am saying I am open to the possibility and did some research before I commented, and am thankful for the concept (though not new). I think it is the close-minded people who are the crackpots.

And I did some research and determined that any effect (gravitational or electromagnetic) the planets could possibly have are many, many magnitudes smaller than local effects and thus would be completely swamped out by them. I gave the idea a fair hearing and found it wanting, this is not being close-minded.
 
I think it is the close-minded people who are the crackpots.
You mean the type who have had a "revelation" that denies the entire history and process of science, and regard "because I read it somewhere" or "I heard that..." as evidence? I have to agree, that's pretty close-minded.
 
A scientific method of studying Jyotish is commonly indefinaitely determined by comparison of personalities born on a same day.
 
Hmmm. I would be at a loss to find an astrologer who has shown accuracy because I do not believe in astrology, and never have.

As far as publications dealing with the harmful effects of EMF. It would be harder to find someone who doesnt accept it as fact.

O.K. studies............

"Depression: Ahlbom(Albohm,2001) reviewed the literature related to depression including the studies of dowson (Dowson, 1988), Perry(Perry, Pearl, & Bins, 1989), Poole(Poole et al, 1993), Savitz (Savitz et al, 1994) McMahon(McMahon et al, 1994) and verkasalo (Verkasalo et al, 1997). Ahlbom concluded the literature was inconsistent with poole (Poole et al, 1993)(positive), and McMahon(McMahon et al, 1994) and Savitz(Savitz et al, 1994)(primarily null). He did not review the Beale(Beale, 1998) study, which came out after he had completed his review. Beale shows some correlation between mood scales and magnetic field exposure to transmission lines. The reviewers remain close to their prior degree of certainty with regard to depression but believe that this is an area worthy of further study, particularly since it may shed some light on the EMF/suicide association."

O.K. is that enough reputable sources.......

Do you not have your own search engines?

I did list sources in my links. I told you to google search keywords.

There is a lot of things we still have yet to learn about, and I have played a devils advocate here in defence of the idea.

I have mentioned many facts. I am not supposed to be writing a documented Essay here. I am assuming that the people here are generally better educated than most, and they should have a basic understanding of the thread they are commenting on.

nevertheless: Source? Source? Source? Source? Source?

The purpose of this study was to reproduce and extend an earlier investigation of the effects of human exposure to combined, 60-Hz electric and magnetic fields. This paper presents the neurobehavioral results. Thirty men participated in one training session and four testing sessions. Subjects were randomly assigned to two groups. The 18 subjects in Group I were exposed (9 kV/m, 20 T) and sham exposed in two counterbalanced orders. In Group II, half of 12 subjects were exposed (9 kV/m, 20 T) every session, and the remaining half were sham exposed every session. The study was doubly blinded. Measures of cardiac interbeat interval, event-related brain potentials, and performance were obtained before, during, and after exposures. As in the earliers study, exposure to the combined field resulted in a statistically significantly slowing of heart rate, in changes in late components of eventrelated brain potentials, and in decreased errors on a choice reaction-time task. In addition, field effects on several other measures approached statistical significance. The physiological measures obtained during exposure indicated that effects were greatest soon after the field was switched on, and again when it was switched off. The data indicate that changes in exposure level may be more important than duration of exposure for producing effects in human beings. © 1992 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

and I was not aiming that comment on anybody JANUS, it is true you did provide a well thought out answer.

AND OLI. I was mentioning pluto was predicted to exist, and mentioned magnetic rings which you misinterpretted, even though I used it in context. I was talking about ELF arcs not planetary rings. "Clyde Tombaugh" is the name of the "reputable source" on that.

AND SKINWALKER, I thought "unfounded correlations" were the first stages in the scientific method. I was simply throwing a hypothesis out there. I kinda thought that was the purpose of these threads. I repeat I do not believe in astrology, and NEVER have.

My last post was the least thought out of my posts, as I had a overly long game of golf ahead of me, and I thought the thread was concluded.

O.K. what else do I need to provide a SOURCE for? Wow, lighten up everybody.
 
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This is my partial Hindu astrological report graph based on time, location of birth. I need a translater.


a Birth chart, Navamsha & Planetray details:



Vimshottari Dasha:
 
O.K. what else do I need to provide a SOURCE for? Wow, lighten up everybody.

"Else?" You haven't provided a single source for anything as yet. You put some names and dates in parentheses, but no titles or journals listed. Surely you don't expect others to accept this as meaningful.

I'm truly interested in your "household appliances claim," but I definitely not interested in sitting at google trying to filter out kook sites from real information. Nor am I impressed by anyone whose response when asked to source their claims is to "just google it."

With regard to your not believing in astrology, my apologies. I thought when you said you put up a good argument for astrology that this meant you were a believer. Obviously it meant something else entirely.

And is spurious correlations part of the scientific method. Not in any method of discovery *I've* ever reviewed or been a part of. Most research hypotheses begin with an observation and then proceed with the observer trying to falsify his assumptions. You apparently have an observation about household appliances, to which I'm asking for supporting data to either accept or reject the assumption that household appliances influence people through their electromagnetic radiation. Beyond leakage from poorly shielded microwave ovens and being feeling the heat from the oven/stove -I can't really see anything worth bothering with that might shed light on the alleged influence of planets and stars.

There simply is no good reason to accept that astrological claims are anything more than belief and all attempts to quantify or demonstrate any significance in astrology has met with abject failure.

Astrology is pure bunk. In hundreds of years of attempts to prove its worth, not a single scientific study has supported it.
 
O.K. Skinwalker.

I'll post it again.

Please note the
Wiley-Liss at the end, Oh, yeah; skip this part if you are into selective reading.

The purpose of this study was to reproduce and extend an earlier investigation of the effects of human exposure to combined, 60-Hz electric and magnetic fields. This paper presents the neurobehavioral results. Thirty men participated in one training session and four testing sessions. Subjects were randomly assigned to two groups. The 18 subjects in Group I were exposed (9 kV/m, 20 T) and sham exposed in two counterbalanced orders. In Group II, half of 12 subjects were exposed (9 kV/m, 20 T) every session, and the remaining half were sham exposed every session. The study was doubly blinded. Measures of cardiac interbeat interval, event-related brain potentials, and performance were obtained before, during, and after exposures. As in the earliers study, exposure to the combined field resulted in a statistically significantly slowing of heart rate, in changes in late components of eventrelated brain potentials, and in decreased errors on a choice reaction-time task. In addition, field effects on several other measures approached statistical significance. The physiological measures obtained during exposure indicated that effects were greatest soon after the field was switched on, and again when it was switched off. The data indicate that changes in exposure level may be more important than duration of exposure for producing effects in human beings. © 1992 Wiley-Liss, Inc

Maybe we need to start an EMF thread just for you. I listed over a dozen studies, and the above out take. Am I supposed to enter an entire book into this thread. Maybe I should get the above study notarized first.

and yes. People can argue for something without believing in it. That is where the term Devil's advocate comes from.

Skinwalker please tell me the difference between "Observation" and "specious correlation". Please enclose all Meaningful sources.
 
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I don't know about you, but if those reported results are accurate ("As in the earliers study, exposure to the combined field resulted in a statistically significantly slowing of heart rate, in changes in late components of eventrelated brain potentials, and in decreased errors on a choice reaction-time task."), they look like positive (good) effects to me.
 
Again, there's no citation. Wiley-Liss? Is that a publisher? A journal? If the latter (I've never heard of it), what volume and issue is it? On which page might I find the information?

Come on. Lets be realistic if you're going to provide a source. I'm not demanding MLA or APA style, but you can't expect others to be mind readers. So your half-ass attempt at a riposte only in your accusation of "selective reading" makes you look dumb as hell considering there appears to be no reading to select.
 
Quick translation:
specious crap, with charts.

In more modern astrologerrs charts using digital** sorry scientific information, Neptune, Uranus and Pluto are also included as I have just found in my charts. But now that Pluto has been denounced as a planet, will it still have an effect on defining a persons astrologogical personality? Pluto was never declared a planet to start with in hindu history to start with.
 
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http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...+wiley+liss+emf+mood&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=ca

The above link can take someone to a complete paper on a study of MF affects, and will post more if asked. This is a new area of study and has many conflicting opinions as you can see in this thread alone. I would like to see studies where they experiment with frequencies related to brainwave activity such as Alpha/Beta/Delta/Theta.

Now my position has been that it was a possibility that the EMF from space, particularly from planets/stars associated with astrology, could have affected the moods, etc. of our ancestors.

We all know the rumours associated with a "full moon", etc.

If that were the case, then Astrology would no longer be applicable in todays society. We have the technology to Mimic or create our own EMF frequencies, and that IF mood altering we could alter moods by a switch of a button, instead of waiting for the moon to be on the cusp of Virgo, or whatever.

As READ ONLY pointed out. The affects in one experiment showed increased performance on tests and decreased heart rate. If we could program our cell phone to emit Theta waves (although that might put us to sleep), then maybe we would do better on tests.

There are also ill affects as well though, and the World Health Organization has warned against using Cell Phones too frequently because there are too many unknowns surrounding a EMF threat.

SUMMATION: We know the planets emit EMF. We can hear them. We have some studies claiming EMF affects moods. So I think theoretically Astrology may not have been as bogus as I have always believed. However we now have Power lines, Cell Phones, TV, Radio, appliances, storms, etc., whose combined EMF output would most likely (just guessing here (no source)) outweigh any EMF resonance recieved from space. So astrology can finally be put to rest. THE END.

Now we just have to worry about ELF Weapons and GWEN. lol (JOKING), don't want the CIA showing up at my door. lol

NOTE: I just googled "astrology ELF" to see if any other theories were floating around like this, and this thread was 3 of the top five. lol
 
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That paper (Cooke, Thomas, & Prato 2002) did not conclude that there were affects that could be quantified. Indeed, there have been no studies that have successfully demonstrated a quantifiable and conclusive effect that either MF or EMF on humans. To quote Cooke et al, there is "remarkable variability in results when exploring the effects of MFs upon human brain activity. This makes it extremely difficult to draw any conclusions with regard to functional relevance."

The article amounts to a meta-analysis of other studies, but one that doesn't appear to be attempting to quantify the data so much as to review literature and suggest viable directions of research. Earlier in the article, the authors state, "t is difficult to conclude any specific effects in terms of EEG frequency or brain region, due in part to the variations in EEG analysis techniques." And this really is the crux of the issue: there are many methods being used to research EMF affects, but they are all using different research methods.

This isn't a problem, rather its a good thing since each researcher is attempting to reject or accept the research hypothesis that EMF has an effect on the human anatomy. Using different methods is important since it looks at the issue from all angles. To date, however, there haven't been any methods established that provide consistent results that are statistically significant, which support the hypothesis that there is a deleterious effect on people due to the EMF of common household appliances, including cell phones.

Having said that, the EMF of a cell phone is far more significant and present in far higher measurements than the EMF of any planet. Even of the earth.

If the EMF of household appliances cannot be demonstrated to have a significant effect on human anatomy, it follows that there is no good reason to accept that astrology (with regard to EMF) is anything more than pure bunk.

Thank you for finally including at least a link to the source of your information. It makes discussion far simpler and easier to accomplish. You might consider at least including a journal title, author and year when citing data from sources. At least that way others can review the source and see the original context.

Cook, C.M. et al (2002). Human Electrophysiological and Cognitive Effects of Exposure to ELF Magnetic and ELF Modulated RF and Microwave Fields:A Review. Bioelectromagnetics, 23(2), 144-157.
 
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