Death

[Cris]

Baron Max,

There ain't no atheists in foxholes under an artillery or mortar barrage.

If this were true then the implication is that if we could convert everyone to atheism then that would be the total end to warfare.

This also implies that religious beliefs are the primary cause of all warfare.

Or would you like to withdraw your uninformed comment?

 

[draqon]

Yorda,

And this is not an idiotic and irresponsible fantasy because......................

...because our existence in this life is as idiotic and irresponsible fantasy

 

[Cris]

Bowser,

I can see how a true believer (someone of religious faith) might have the upper hand during the final moments leading to death.

Sure. Any fantasy that you might choose that would convince you that you aren't really going to cease to exist is highly likely to relieve some stress. In this case a delusionary outlook would appear to have some dubious value.

 

[Cris]

dragon,

because our existence in this life is as idiotic and irresponsible fantasy

You are telling me that you are really just a figment of my imagaination, is that it?

 

[draqon]

dragon,

You are telling me that you are really just a figment of my imagaination, is that it?

I am telling you that your and my existence is as just idiotic and fantasy-like just as all of our ideas of afterlife

 

[Cris]

Yorda,

no... my belief is that no one can cease to exist.

Isn't this just wishful thinking or do you know something that no one else knows?

 

[Cris]

dragon,

I am telling you that your and my existence is as just idiotic and fantasy-like just as all of our ideas of afterlife

I can see why afterlife ideas have no basis but why is our existence fantasy-like? I guess I don't really udnerstand your point.

 

[draqon]

dragon,

I can see why afterlife ideas have no basis but why is our existence fantasy-like? I guess I don't really udnerstand your point.

well than the same way you see existence of afterlife a fantasy-like, how do you not see existence of yourself in this life as fantasy-like?

Why do you exist in the first place?
Who are you?
Why are you here?
You have no answers, because you have no facts to give me....


...poof and I was born....right? well why weren't you born before? why now? why is this life this way?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death

If you knew you were near death, where would your thoughts be?

I bring this question to the forum because death is often the focus of much religious contemplation. Regardless of what your beliefs might be, everyone eventually must face their final moments… Eventually.

*************
M*W: Thank you for this thought-provoking thread.

To me, death is relative. It seems that the minute we are born, we start to die. If life was supposed to be so darn fair, why are we born to die?

I say "relative," because I was talking with a dear old friend today who is morbidly obese, with a totally sedentary lifestyle, and a very long history of serious life-threatening health problems (too many to list). I noticed in our conversation, not by what she said, but from what she didn't say. She had an excuse for everything, why her health was poor, how she couldn't get up to do anything, in fact, she's been semi-bed ridden for three years now! I got onto her because she's not making any effort to improve her life or her health! I've offered to take her out for some minimal exercise, but she has refused me all these years.

Well, this topic is about death, and as I said, death is relative. My friend is not alive even if she is still breathing. She has no will to get better, and I think she is doing everything she can to speed-up her demise, or at least that's what it looks like to the people who know her.

At what point can one determine when death really occurs? Yeah, it occurs when we flatline, but death is not the be all, end all of life. Death is final in itself, but death begins sometime before that finality comes. I guess the process of dying is different for each of us. It's a process that's been going on since our birth. Why is it that some people want to hurry their journey to non-existence?

I listened intently to her every word as I told her frankly that it seems she is killing herself. Her answer to me was, "I'm not afraid to die." At that moment, I realized that I, too, am not afraid to die, but that's not the problem. The problem is that some people are too afraid to live.

 

[Bowser]

Bowser,

Sure. Any fantasy that you might choose that would convince you that you aren't really going to cease to exist is highly likely to relieve some stress. In this case a delusionary outlook would appear to have some dubious value.

Hope within a hopeless situation? That might have some value.

 

[Cris]

Dragon,

well than the same way you see existence of afterlife a fantasy-like, how do you not see existence of yourself in this life as fantasy-like?

I think therefore I am. If I was a fantasy then I could not say that.

Why do you exist in the first place?

Why must there be a reason?

Who are you?

I am me, why would that be an issue?

Why are you here?

Why must there be a reason?

You have no answers, because you have no facts to give me….
...poof and I was born....right? well why weren't you born before? why now? why is this life this way?

Not really. You have constructed questions to which there maybe no answers, but that doesn’t make our existences fantasies.

 

[draqon]

Chris I ask you again, why do you exist?

because the fact that you exist is undeniable yet has no meaning/logic to it

 

[Yorda]

And cursing the stupidity of religion to the end - since it is those idiotic and baseless fantasies that have convinced billions of false hopes such that inadequate attention has been given to really solving the problem of death and obvious non-existence.

you said similar things in your past life, but now you are alive again. you shouldn't fear death, non-existence, because it is non-existent.

Isn't this just wishful thinking or do you know something that no one else knows?

my greatest wish is to cease to exist, just rest forever... but i know that we can't die. that we could cease to exist is just wishful thinking. life is never ending.

if you want to realize that you are immortal, just answer these questions:

why were you born in this time instead of the year 1500 for example? why is your consciousness in that body instead of my body?

before your body was born, (you think) you didn't exist. but how could you go from non-existence to existence? if you cease to exist when your body dies, what would prevent you from going from non-existence to existence again?

My friend is not alive even if she is still breathing.

that is the only real death there is. death exists only in life. and it was those kind of living deads that jesus was talking about.

Why is it that some people want to hurry their journey to non-existence?

because non-existence is perfection... if it existed there would be no reason for me to live.

 

[Cris]

Dragon,

Chris I ask you again, why do you exist?

Why must there be a reason or an answer?

because the fact that you exist is undeniable yet has no meaning/logic to it

Why assume there is a meaning for life?

 

[cosmictraveler]

*************
M*W: Thank you for this thought-provoking thread.

To me, death is relative. It seems that the minute we are born, we start to die. If life was supposed to be so darn fair, why are we born to die?

I say "relative," because I was talking with a dear old friend today who is morbidly obese, with a totally sedentary lifestyle, and a very long history of serious life-threatening health problems (too many to list). I noticed in our conversation, not by what she said, but from what she didn't say. She had an excuse for everything, why her health was poor, how she couldn't get up to do anything, in fact, she's been semi-bed ridden for three years now! I got onto her because she's not making any effort to improve her life or her health! I've offered to take her out for some minimal exercise, but she has refused me all these years.

Well, this topic is about death, and as I said, death is relative. My friend is not alive even if she is still breathing. She has no will to get better, and I think she is doing everything she can to speed-up her demise, or at least that's what it looks like to the people who know her.

At what point can one determine when death really occurs? Yeah, it occurs when we flatline, but death is not the be all, end all of life. Death is final in itself, but death begins sometime before that finality comes. I guess the process of dying is different for each of us. It's a process that's been going on since our birth. Why is it that some people want to hurry their journey to non-existence?

I listened intently to her every word as I told her frankly that it seems she is killing herself. Her answer to me was, "I'm not afraid to die." At that moment, I realized that I, too, am not afraid to die, but that's not the problem. The problem is that some people are too afraid to live.

You give her life. You are her legs to get out and come back to talk with her. You are a fine example what a true friend is. Thank you for helping her cope and keeping her talking. Hope is what you have and she wants.

 

[Orleander]

As my Mom says "she's digging her grave with her own teeth"
And you're right. She is hiding from life. That's got to be incredibly frustrating for you. Where is her family in all this? Are they helping her die with food?

 

[Cris]

Yorda,

you said similar things in your past life, but now you are alive again. you shouldn't fear death, non-existence, because it is non-existent.

Pure fantasy.

my greatest wish is to cease to exist, just rest forever...

It seems a very foolish wish to want something that cannot ever be appreciated.

but i know that we can't die. that we could cease to exist is just wishful thinking. life is never ending.

HOW DO YOU KNOW?

if you want to realize that you are immortal, just answer these questions:

why were you born in this time instead of the year 1500 for example? why is your consciousness in that body instead of my body?

These appear to be irrelevant questions.

before your body was born, (you think) you didn't exist.

My body is necessary for my existence so of course I did not exist before my body was born and there is as yet no known way for me to survive when my body dies.

but how could you go from non-existence to existence?

Because I grew as my body grew, from conception to the current time.

if you cease to exist when your body dies, what would prevent you from going from non-existence to existence again?

Because I am dependent on my body and will cease to exist when my body dies. Perhaps if the universe is infinite then a far future combination of atoms and events might occur that duplicates this time and a replica of me then might occur again, but wouldn’t be me but a replica in a different time.

because non-existence is perfection...

Relative to what ?

if it existed there would be no reason for me to live.

Why must there be a reason to live?

 

[Yorda]

It seems a very foolish wish to want something that cannot ever be appreciated.

it seems very foolish to want to be something instead of nothing. the only reason people want that is because they are something.

if you knew how good it feels to not feel anything... if you understood what it means to be non-existent you would also want that.

HOW DO YOU KNOW?

i don't know how i know what i know. all i know is that i know. when i was small and i discussed death with my friends, we always agreed that "everything can't just end". it's illogical, unimaginable. i have never worried about death.

what does it matter if you cease to exist when you die? it can't matter because you won't be around to make it matter. things can only matter in life.

life is all that exists. death is also just a part of life. i have never experienced anything but life. there is nothing else.

These appear to be irrelevant questions.

you don't have to understand why you can't die. just trust me, believe me, and you will live forever. jesus said so.

but no matter what you believe you will still live forever.

My body is necessary for my existence so of course I did not exist before my body was born and there is as yet no known way for me to survive when my body dies.

what makes you think that is your only body? so many religions speak of souls and spirits. and there are astral projections and photos of ghosts.

Relative to what ?

existence of course. in existence there is the eternal 50% good and 50% bad. in death there is 0% bad, and if you think you would miss the joy of being alive, you can't, because if you don't exist there are no desires. we would be free... of everything.

Why must there be a reason to live?

why do you live? why not die? probably because you enjoy life. that is your reason.

compared to non-existence, life is like being in hell. when i think about non-existence, life becomes hell...

but non-existence is non-existent... so why should i care about it... i should accept that i'm an immortal being... so that life doesn't have to be hell...

 

[Celpha Fiael]

We are all close to death if you think about it.

While a solid answer is impossible to know, I wouldn't see much point in speculating what might soon happen or my awaiting posthumous experiences, if there are any. That is too much of a waste of precious time, my thoughts would definitely be with those who I love and be savoring the memories I've been fortunate enough to share with them. Isn't that what really matters?

 

[Bowser]

All very good.