Death to Apostates (?)

Death to apostates?

  • I am Christian or Jewish. Apostates should be killed.

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • I am Christian or Jewish. Apostates should not be killed.

    Votes: 7 18.4%
  • I am Muslim. Apostates should be killed.

    Votes: 2 5.3%
  • I am Muslim. Apostates should not be killed.

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • I am a member of some other religion. Apostates from my religion should be killed.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am a member of some other religion. Apostates should not be killed.

    Votes: 5 13.2%
  • I am non-religious. People who become religious should be killed.

    Votes: 2 5.3%
  • I am non-religious. People who become religious should not be killed.

    Votes: 18 47.4%
  • No opinion / don't want to vote / other (explained below)

    Votes: 2 5.3%

  • Total voters
    38
And werent the Jews spread out all over the known world?

It would then require a ministry 'to the end of the earth' to reach them all.

Again, he states in two separate passages that his message is not for gentiles, and that has come only to gather the lost sheep of Israel.

You persist because of pride and rebellion to vainly persure your faulty argument and the more you do the more you reveal yourself.

The Evalyonian even quoted a clearer scripture to you but you choose to ignore it in persit of your agenda.


Matthew 28

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

All the nations is exactly that. All the nations not just the Jewish nation.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
You persist because of pride and rebellion to vainly persure your faulty argument and the more you do the more you reveal yourself.

The Evalyonian even quoted a clearer scripture to you but you choose to ignore it in persit of your agenda.


Matthew 28

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

All the nations is exactly that. All the nations not just the Jewish nation.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Stop quoting the fucking Bible ! Have you nothing to say for yourself. If you must preach, get yourself a soapbox and do it elswhere !
 
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Sure, Jewish disciples of all nations. I see no contradiction there.
Would a Jew living in Rome or Persia be denied, simply because they didnt live in Judea?

How long will you deny his direct words...."Go NOT among the gentiles."
 
Sure, Jewish disciples of all nations. I see no contradiction there.
Would a Jew living in Rome or Persia be denied, simply because they didnt live in Judea?

How long will you deny his direct words...."Go NOT among the gentiles."

As it says in the good book:

If ye harken not to Adstar , my anointed, the Lake of Fire awits ye.

Idiotics: 1.14
 
No, just pissed off talking to someone who can't reason. You assume that any stupid question you ask must have an answer. How do I know ? How do you know? We neither of us do but you are not content to leave it there. There is nothing I can usefully say to you.

I'm off and you can make of it what you will.

Either back up your claim, or don't make one in the first place.

jan.
 
Either back up your claim, or don't make one in the first place.

jan.


It's Sam making the claim that Stalin's atheism was the cause of him killing people.

Myles is pointing out that there is no cause and effect going on there. Stalin being an atheist was tangential to the fact he was an asshole.

If you are in doubt, go read about Stalin and the purges. Don't be lazy and ask Myles to put it under your nose for you.
 
Sure, Jewish disciples of all nations. I see no contradiction there.
Would a Jew living in Rome or Persia be denied, simply because they didnt live in Judea?

How long will you deny his direct words...."Go NOT among the gentiles."

Except the greek term used in Matthew 28 is "ethnos" which does not mean nation in the sense of countries but nation in the sense of race. The usage is too broad to refer only to the Jewish people.

I'm going to start a new thread on this subject because this discussion has nothing to do with the OT.
 
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You were the one who wanted to play the evidence game.

But seriously, how do you know he didn't wish to wipe out religion by wiping out the religious? I'm not saying that he did, I just want to know why you are so certain.

Jan.

It can be argued that there is plenty of evidence of wanting to wipe out religion in the Soviet regime. The religious were just collateral damages. The creation of the Society of the Godless or the League of the Militant Godless for instance, was almost entirely a party effort, supported by party funding, with many members having no idea what they had signed up for. It collapsed when party funds were withdrawn, showing that the ideology of bringing people into a scientific mindset as they said, was driven entirely by the communist party regime.. Moreover, it was supported by Freethinkers [as atheists defined themselves at the time] all over the world.

Guided by Bolshevik principles of antireligious propaganda and party's orders with regards to religion, S.o.G. aimed at fighting religion in all its manifestations and forming scientific mindset among the workers. It popularized atheism and scientific achievements, conducted individual work with religious people, prepared propagandists and atheistic campaigners, published scientific literature and periodicals, organized museums and exhibitions, conducted scientific research in the field of atheism and critics of religion. S.o.G.'s slogan was "Struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism", which was meant to tie in their atheist views with economy, politics, and culture. S.o.G. had vast international connections; it was part of the International of Proletarian Freethinkers and later of the Worldwide Freethinkers Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Godless


If political expediency is the excuse, then lets look at why some Muslims believe in the death sentence for apostacy, given that its not defined in the religion.

Classical Hanafi doctrine holds that the capital punishment of the apostate serves mainly political aims. I quote two famous Hanafi jurists from Central Asia on this matter. The first is the eleventh-century Transoxanian jurist Sarakhsi, one of the major authorities of the Hanafi school. He says:

The change of religion and the original form of unbelief
belong to the most abominable of crimes. But [their judgment]
is a matter between God and his servant and the punishment
[of this crime] is postponed until the hereafter.
The measures advanced in this base world [and which thus
precede God's judgment] are matters of political expediency
[siyasat mashru'a] ordained by the law in order to protect
human interests" (Sarakhsi, n.d., vol. 10: 110).


In the same vein, the twelfth-century Hanafi jurist Marghinani, whose book al-Hidaya exerted a lasting influence on the Hanafi jurists of the Near East, states his position with the following words:

In principle, punishments are postponed to the hereafter
and the fact that they are advanced [so that they precede
the hereafter] violates the sense of probation [as the sense
of human life in this world]. One deviates from this principle
in order to defy a present evil and that is warfare
[against the Muslims] ('Ayni, vol. VI: 702-703). (2)


Both authors argue that the apostate's punishment is not due to his belief but to the military and political danger that this belief may cause. They use this argument to show that women, even if they abandon Islam, should never be condemned to death because they are, according to Hanafi doctrine, physically not able to lead war on the Muslim community. The jurists conclude from this that capital punishment is not imposed for disbelief and apostasy but as a means to prevent the military and political dangers connected with it.

One could argue then, that Stalins aims were not different from those of the Hanafi jurists in this regard. In fact, come to think of it, Stalin is the kind of apostate that they referred to.
 
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That fills me with exactly zero confidence in islamic jurisprudence.
 
phlogistician,

It's Sam making the claim that Stalin's atheism was the cause of him killing people.

I think that is your interpretation of what she said.

Myles is pointing out that there is no cause and effect going on there. Stalin being an atheist was tangential to the fact he was an asshole.

Okay, I accept that that is whay Myles said.
My question is, how does he know?

If you are in doubt, go read about Stalin and the purges. Don't be lazy and ask Myles to put it under your nose for you.

What I have read about Stalin is irrelivant to the question I pose to Myles, or anyone who is as certain as he.

Why are you so certain that Stalins actions are NOT linked to his atheism?
It is a fair question phlogo.
Please try and attemp an answer without resorting to pretend humour, such as stamp collecting, and blokes named basil.
Otherwise you will be seen as, dare I say it, irrational.

I look foreward to a serious answer. Thanks.
Jan.
 
phlogistician,



I think that is your interpretation of what she said.

Sam brings it up too often for me to be unsure.


Please try and attemp an answer without resorting to pretend humour, such as stamp collecting, and blokes named basil.
Otherwise you will be seen as, dare I say it, irrational.

The point is to show how vitriolic, and irrational Sam is.

I look foreward to a serious answer. Thanks.
Jan.

Above, I was being serious. Sam has a chip on her shoulder, and it makes her look rabid. She is the poster girl for why religions take normal people, and turn them into assholes.
 
Because he didn't kill them on the basis of religion. He didn't credit it to his lack of faith.

And the next question is: " How do you know ? " I wish you luck because you are in the process of being caught up in a conspiracy theory.

The fact that he did not credit his killing spree to his lackof faith proves nothing. How do you know that he did not conceal his motives ? Isn't the fact that he gave no reasons for his killing spree PROOF POSITIVE that he killed people because of their religion ?

Did you know that he ate babies. That is also not recorded, for obvious reasons.
 
Because he didn't kill them on the basis of religion. He didn't credit it to his lack of faith.

But he did seek to end religion, at least by closing down churches, mosques, and improsonment of clergy.
What would motivate him to do that, if not because he was an atheist?

jan.
 
And the next question is: " How do you know ? " I wish you luck because you are in the process of being caught up in a conspiracy theory.

The fact that he did not credit his killing spree to his lackof faith proves nothing. How do you know that he did not conceal his motives ? Isn't the fact that he gave no reasons for his killing spree PROOF POSITIVE that he killed people because of their religion ?

Did you know that he ate babies. That is also not recorded, for obvious reasons.

Why are you here Myles, it seems you have an aversion to discussion. That's not very healthy in a discussion forum.

Jan.
 
But he did seek to end religion, at least by closing down churches, mosques, and improsonment of clergy.
What would motivate him to do that, if not because he was an atheist?

jan.


Because religious leaders organise people into groups, and the groups follow the leader. People are easier to manage if they only have one leader.

Stalin also disposed of opposing politicians. He certainly wasn't apolitical!
 
Sam brings it up too often for me to be unsure.




The point is to show how vitriolic, and irrational Sam is.



Above, I was being serious. Sam has a chip on her shoulder, and it makes her look rabid. She is the poster girl for why religions take normal people, and turn them into assholes.

Phlogo, I think you are taking things too personally.
It's almost as if you think, Stalins' actions somehow reflect on you and anybody who calls themself atheist, so you feel compelled to defend yourself and your worldveiw.
My understanding doesn't lend itself to that kind of simplistic, point-scoring philosophy. And I would be very surprised if Sam's did, based on here posts.
If your evil, then your worldview will aid you in your decisions be they atheistic or theistic, but atheism, or theism, in and of themselves, cannot be regarded as good or evil. This is my opinion. I hope you understand.

jan.
 
Phlogo, I think you are taking things too personally.
It's almost as if you think, Stalins' actions somehow reflect on you and anybody who calls themself atheist, so you feel compelled to defend yourself and your worldveiw.

That is exactly what Sam is trying to imply. That Stalin was an evil atheist, and therefore all atheists are somehow responsible in part. That is why we make the 'stamp collector' references. Sam want to group people by what they are not (theists), us atheists want to point out other common non-affiliations. You might think it lighthearted, but there is a serious side; Sam is trying to make atheism a pro-position with a political agenda. This is dishonest.


My understanding doesn't lend itself to that kind of simplistic, point-scoring philosophy. And I would be very surprised if Sam's did, based on here posts.

WHAT? Sam is a liar, dishonest in debate, and machinistic. How could you not have noticed this from her posts?
 
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