death penalty vs abortion

[Flores]

Types of examples that you may use in the future to compare mother fetus relationship:

A person chained to another unconscious person while running a life marathon that is 9 month long. The person can't handle the load anymore and is electing to break the chain in the middle of the marathon......Is that murder??

 

[okinrus]

Look Flores. If you have commited an abortion, repent and God will forgive you, but stop trying to justify yourself. It's a sin along with 100s of other ones. The bible says "Woman with child" to mean a woman who is pregant. So abortion is literally killing the child within you. We also believe that the child Jesus is within us just as he was within Mary.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
Look Flores. If you have commited an abortion, repent and God will forgive you, but stop trying to justify yourself. It's a sin along with 100s of other ones. The bible says "Woman with child" to mean a woman who is pregant. So abortion is literally killing the child within you. We also believe that the child Jesus is within us just as he was within Mary.

You freakin idiot, I have never commited an abortion in my life. I was a virgin to my husband and he was to me......A person doesn't have to have commited a wrong to support an idea or the truth.

I'm not saying you should abort or kill a baby, I'm just saying leave the women alone to decide for themselves.....They would decide to carry their baby againest all odds...I'm sure of it....I'm a mother of two and I would kill anyone that would think about hurting my babies.

Help the woman, educate them, show them how to handle the odds, support them with their decision, ect....Don't label them and force your nonesense non applicable unrealistic rules on them.

 

[okinrus]

I'm just suprised that you would go to all the trouble of trying to spport abortion by a book you do not even believe in. You have then read in the Qur'an where Mary gives birth to the Prophet Jesus. What horror would that be if Jesus was aborted? And we see God taken care of Mary by letting her eat figs... Support what you believe in your heart because it is correct. You should stop calling me an idiot. Do I call you this?

 

[Flores]

okinrus, we are all idiots, just some of us more than others, so take it as a compliment.

Second, Jesus would have been born and was born againest all odds. For god sake, Jesus was born without a father, so do you think an anti abortion crowd was needed back then to protect the life of Jesus. Our Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, was meant to be even without anti-abortion crowd like you and His mother Mary was going to give birth to him despite ot any prochoice women like me.

Now, let me advise you this, the Quran is not at your Whim, one day you feel like it using it to show a good point, and the next day you insult it's validity, ect, ect...That's hypocracy if I ever have seen one.....That's not very nice or consistent.....I suggest that you pick a position and style and stick to it. We all do this here. Everything about me from my life to all my beliefs are clear made known and consistent. I would appreciate if you do the same.

 

[okinrus]

Now, let me advise you this, the Quran is not at your Whim, one day you feel like it using it to show a good point, and the next day you insult it's validity, ect, ect...That's hypocracy if I ever have seen one.....That's not very nice or consistent.....I suggest that you pick a position and style and stick to it. We all do this here. Everything about me from my life to all my beliefs are clear made known and consistent. I would appreciate if you do the same.

Not true. The Qur'an says that the bible is holy but you do not believe 100% in it. What am I doing that you are not doing?
It's no different to me than quoting pinochio and saying "you shall not lie".

 

[Cowboy]

Originally posted by Flores
You just insist on not having an intelligent discussion by twisting my words on purpose. Do you know that the use of comma in the english language implies AND or OR. I meant, againest her will or and by rape, or and by failed birth control, ect....... I didn't imply at all that failed birth control is rape, they are different, but all examples of how a woman can get pregnant without planning for it, ie. againest her will.

Do you insist on twisting my words on purpose? I never said that you said all (or any) failed birth control is rape.

What I am saying is that while both failed birth control and rape can result in an unwanted pregnancy, there is a clear ethical difference since rape is involuntary and a pregancy resulting from failed birth control implies that the sex was consensual.

Originally posted by Flores
In a nut shell, you have no religious basis againest abortion. It was never mentioned in the bible in specific. In addition, noone can interfere with another human body againest their will without causing a physical and phsycological harm. The state intervention to stop abortion and force a woman to carry a load inside her body againest her will is a crime far worse than a woman selecting to abort her own body.

1. I am not religious and therefore would never use religious teachings to argue for or against public policy.
2. A DNA test of the unborn child will determine whether that unborn child is a separate being or simply a part of the mother's body.
   [/list=1]

 

[shrubby pegasus]

a dna test will tell you nothing. i dont see how you can even begin to mention that. you can take one of my skin cells. it will have different dna than you but my dna is no being. a stem cell will carry the dna but it is not a person in any sense. although with the correct chemical stimuli you can get that stem cell to grow into anything in a persons body. why cant you conceptualize the fertilized egg as what it is, a simple system of cells. it is the same as a chicken egg, lizard egg, crocodile egg, etc. it carries no cognitive functions nor is it anyting other than part of the womans body.

 

[Cowboy]

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
a dna test will tell you nothing. i dont see how you can even begin to mention that. you can take one of my skin cells. it will have different dna than you but my dna is no being.

The unborn child will have different DNA than the mother, so it isn't just another part of her body.

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
why cant you conceptualize the fertilized egg as what it is, a simple system of cells. it is the same as a chicken egg, lizard egg, crocodile egg, etc. it carries no cognitive functions nor is it anyting other than part of the womans body.

When push comes to shove, everything is just a system of cells.

 

[shrubby pegasus]

once again a dna test will reveal nothing. are stem cells a person? under the right chemical conditions stem cells will grow to be anythng you want. galt your argument about dna is absurd. do you die everytime a cell with your dna dies? dna does not make a person. a person is an entity that emboies the characteristics that are necessary live like you and i. a fetus has no such characteristics. it no different than an embryo of a bird, a lizard, a dog, or a fish.

a simple system of cells is one thing. a complex system with emergent properties is another. the fetus is the former and the person is the latter.

 

[Cowboy]

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
once again a dna test will reveal nothing. galt your argument about dna is absurd.

The argument is whether or not the unborn child is a separate being or simply part of the mother. If it is a separate being it will have its own unique DNA.

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
are stem cells a person? under the right chemical conditions stem cells will grow to be anythng you want.

The discussion wasn't about the potential outcomes of a stem cell. It was about whether or not an unborn child growing in the womb of its mother was a separate being or just part of the mother's body.

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
do you die everytime a cell with your dna dies?

No, but that wasn't the point, was it?

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
dna does not make a person.

Actually, it does.

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
a person is an entity that emboies the characteristics that are necessary live like you and i. a fetus has no such characteristics. it no different than an embryo of a bird, a lizard, a dog, or a fish.

So a person who can only survive by being hooked up to a respirator isn't really a person?

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
a simple system of cells is one thing. a complex system with emergent properties is another. the fetus is the former and the person is the latter.

When, in your opinion, does an unborn child make the transition from a simple to complex system of cells?